Mental aspect of moving from 9/10ths to 10/10ths - what are the considerations?

[dquarasr2]

I've watched videos of some seriously fast laps, including the recent post in this forum, Billy's lap: "FXMD and Billy's record-smashing 1:37.520 at Buttonwillow - InCar Video".

Can we start a conversation on the mental aspects of a 10/10ths lap? This conversation is not necessarily NSX-specific, but please feel free to tie it back to NSX where appropriate. Moderators, please advise if this should be moved elsewhere.

Here is my concern: I can lay down some pretty good laps. In the turns in which I am comfortable, usually in the 50-70MPH range (or less, of course), I usually have no problem right at the limits of adhesion, sliding the car a bit, making minor corrections with the steering wheel and feet. I'm also OK hammering the brakes from 120+ MPH. So it's not a fear of "speed", per se. It's in the "big-boy" turns that I lose most of my time. Although I've characterized it as "growing attachments", I don't think it's merely fear. It's also confidence, lack of a serene feeling, a calmness I cannot seem to acquire. I've done it only a very, very few times, banzai-ing a fast turn. To do it I have to be in a very specific state of mind.

Watching Billy's lap, and as I said, others, it's a confidence thing. I am sure I can make the needed corrections, anticipating as Billy mentioned in one of his posts, and being ahead of the car. But I rarely, rarely, can push myself to that point. I am OK with a mild understeer or a hint of rotation, but I rarely get to the point where I have to make major corrections. I KNOW I am losing entire seconds in the faster turns.

I recently had someone drive my car with me in the right seat. He drove Turn 17 at Sebring faster than I had (and honestly, thought was possible). So, I went out and duplicated that and achieved personal best. But in Turn 1 at Sebring, I am still very cautiously approaching the limit, one or two MPH at a time, increasing entry speed. And I'm still probably 10-15 MPH off at apex than I know the car can do.

So, how do you guys prepare yourselves mentally, what goes through your mind, where are you looking, are you relaxed, how do you get relaxed to feel the car, etc., etc??. PLEASE let me know how you put yourselves in that mindset to actually do what your brain says you can but your right foot doesn't allow you to.

Thanks in advance.

 

[RSO 34]

For me it's simple.

I have 111 track days in my NSX. None have had any portion of any session at 10/10ths. I also use it as a daily driver in season.

I would only go 10/10ths if it was someone else's car and I had no crash damage liability. There are no prizes for HPDE.....

 

[dquarasr2]

There are no prizes for HPDE.....

Yeah, I know, that's what I tell my students when they are starting to get in over their heads. But still, I'm not trying for a track record. Just a personal record. I can't even get to 9/10ths in the faster turns. . . .

 

[illwillem]

I feel its as much about being calm and focused as anything. For me when I feel like im really pushing then i'm likely out of my zone. Before I go out on track i usually pull around the pits and take some deep breaths and clear my head its like turning the stereo down im my head so I can really pay attention to what im doing. The other half to me is just practice, starting small and building up my comfort in big input or loss of grip situations. Sometimes I watch video and am surprised that i was countering steering on throttle or correcting. For it too be really relaxed your muscle memory just has to take over and do it and that just comes down to doing it a lot. As long as you dont have any really bad habits just keep at the pace your comfortable with and focus on one corner a lap to go faster on. It always helps to ride along with faster people just too see whats actually possible then work your way up too it.

I personally really dont like going fast. i have an internal speedo that makes my spine tingle at anything over 110 and I become hyper aware of my speed. Ill drive much harder on turns then lift on the straights for just about every lap through out the day. When i feel comfortable with the grip and feel that i have a good set up for the conditions ill do maybe only 2 or 3 laps where i push through that feeling and set my best times. There also tracks like Big Willow and autoclub speedway that i really dont care for. I feel the danger and abuse to the car is more than its worth to me. Ive driven them out of curiosity but i'm honest and realistic with myself. Since this is only a hobby its not worth it if im not having fun. Your mileage may very

 

[docjohn]

well Billy is a pro..roush would not pay him if he was not talented.That time attack lap is at the limits of machine/tire/track that day.My question to Billy would be how his longer race laps compare to TA laps.On the limit car control can be stressful. for me it is more about what the track conditions are and how the other players are in my group.For me the biggest limiting factor at hpde is that i have to drive the bee home.

 

[stuntman]

Seat time, Seat time, Seat time!!!

First work on improving your comfort with OVERsteer, rotation, rear sliding, etc... on low speed corners (like button-hook at BW). Corners where if you spin, you will not hit anything or damage your car. Once your more comfortable with feeling how your car reacts at the limit, you won't be as nervous with driving the car at the limit in faster corners. All of this takes seat time. Being relaxed in the car esp. as it's moving around and sliding takes SEAT TIME doing it.

Start in slow corners, work up to med speed corners, and eventually highspeed rotations or snapping loose will be muscle memory reactions and you wont be thinking about it.

William - Have you ever been to WSIR, ACS, Thunderhill, or any 'faster' (than BW) tracks? 100mph is just a number. Block off your speedometer and just work on your driving and keep the pedal down on the straights and work on reference points and brake markers. Many racecars don't even have a speedo (or a very significant one.

 

[illwillem]

Yeah I have driven all of those, the speedo isnt a problem, it seeing everything whipping by. Strangely enough I dont have that same problem when tracking a motorcycle, it only seems to be in cars. WSIR to me is just sketchy, its clear that they don't care about safety or they would spend the 3k it would take to raze the run off areas for berms and fix the chasms that are all along all the track surfaces.

ACS roval isn't so much the speed but the sustained revving and g-loading that give it the nickname carkiller speedway. I think if it were a more interesting layout i would make exception, but since its so brutal the added speed thing so close to the wall makes it a deal beaker track. I LOVE Chuckwalla, its fast but it also feels safer, I love Thunderhill and Laguna Seca and Spring Mountain too. I guess what i'm saying is that i don't feel the need to push on every lap on every track. Im also buying another car for track duty that I wont have a problem beating up anywhere and everywhere.

 

[stuntman]

What car?

 

[illwillem]

Im looking at another s2000, its FR, its bullet proof, and really only needs wheels and tires and a cage and your set. The prices have been dropping considerably and I want to find another one before they go up in the next few years.

also on the fence about building another grip only ae86. It would be another big project since they need quite a bit of reenforcement to be safe and quite a bit of suspension resto and motor work to make them decent on track. It will always be on the 'slow' but it was never boring. You really have to work to get the solid rear axle around the track but its the MOST fun you can have and you learn a great deal about car control.

my old 86:
<a href="http://smg.photobucket.com/user/xburnitallx/media/7ce06fce-30f6-450d-9e48-7e11e8bcb33a_zpsa12c206d.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v680/xburnitallx/7ce06fce-30f6-450d-9e48-7e11e8bcb33a_zpsa12c206d.jpg" border="0" alt=" photo 7ce06fce-30f6-450d-9e48-7e11e8bcb33a_zpsa12c206d.jpg"/></a>

I just put this together for a good friend of mine, his car is making around 100hp at the wheels but is just so much fun to drive, it definitely punches above its weight on tighter tracks.

<iframe src="//www.youtube.com/embed/EWrpp80OuLA" allowfullscreen="" frameborder="0" height="480" width="853"></iframe>

 

[dquarasr2]

Seat time, Seat time, Seat time!!!

First work on improving your comfort with OVERsteer, rotation, rear sliding, etc... on low speed corners (like button-hook at BW). Corners where if you spin, you will not hit anything or damage your car. Once your more comfortable with feeling how your car reacts at the limit, you won't be as nervous with driving the car at the limit in faster corners. All of this takes seat time. Being relaxed in the car esp. as it's moving around and sliding takes SEAT TIME doing it.

Start in slow corners, work up to med speed corners, and eventually highspeed rotations or snapping loose will be muscle memory reactions and you wont be thinking about it.

William - Have you ever been to WSIR, ACS, Thunderhill, or any 'faster' (than BW) tracks? 100mph is just a number. Block off your speedometer and just work on your driving and keep the pedal down on the straights and work on reference points and brake markers. Many racecars don't even have a speedo (or a very significant one.

Thanks, Billy. I've done that. I feel OK sliding the car around in the slow corners, rotating, etc. Maybe this is the source of my anxiety, but I started autocrossing. I know car control and have no problem driving the car sideways. In fact, when I first got the NSX and tried to track it, I felt so uncomfortable later I entered an autocross just so I could get used to oversteering it and catching it. I found it much easier to catch than I had thought. But that has not translated to comfort in faster turns, in either my NSX or in my (ex-)Spec Miata. You're right, seat time. I have lots of seat time (dozens of track days, most of them participating both driving myself and instructing), but it has not been quality seat time. I typically get to that same level of discomfort and don't try to move beyond it. The last few events I have been pushing, and most recently, in the faster turns have been carrying a hundred RPM more at a time, slowly bumping up entry speed. I have had some success at it, but dang.

This past weekend at Sebring with Chin Motorsports there were a number of pro Pirelli GT3 Cup cars testing. I know they are fast on the straights, but what I could not wrap my head around was just how fast they are in the turns. I would point them by to the inside so I would not mess up their testing laps, and they'd go by, and after they're in front of me I'm watching the attitude of their cars: yawing on the verge of understeer, then oversteer, and back and forth, so I KNOW they were right up there near the limit. And they were way faster than me. Yeah, they do have some aero with the big wing on the back, but even still, with the car yawing and crabbing for traction, I was impressed by how much further to the limit they were than me. And that's why they are paid to do that, and I am a hobbyist. :biggrin:

So, it really is a matter of quality seat time, having the confidence to be able to drive it out, and bumping up the speed small increments at a time. Eventually, I'll look back and wonder why I used to be so slow. (In spite of my favorite saying: "The older I get the faster I was.")

I also had another small revelation tis past weekend. My student on Saturday was driving a Spec Miata. He entered T1 too hot once and on approach I said (calmly in the radio), "You're too hot." He was able to actually brush off speed as he turned in; the right-front tire (Falken Azenis) gave that low-pitched groan, and the car just turned in. If I had done that with my car, I'd have been pointing backwards. I need to look at set up. My son and I, both having come from autocross background, seem to like the Miata a little more nervous that is probably advisable for track speeds. We can rotate the car pretty readily on slower turns, to our advantage, but on faster turns it becomes a little more dicey. I think we should maybe move the car more toward understeer, rather than very neutral as it is right now. My NSX, though, is set up with just a hint of understeer. My problem with that car on track is the constant thought "yeah, it's all aluminum and any contact will likely result in a write-off."

Thanks for the comments, guys.

 

[stuntman]

Sounds like your mental issue is primarily with wrecking the car. I still feel like if you practice oversteer/car control/feeling the car at the tire's limit in low speed corners then medium speed corners to gain seat time with the car moving around in faster and faster corners, it will build your comfort level. Pick corners where if you spin, you wont hit anything (like the last 3 turns onto Sebring's back straight (11, 10, 9?). Also a wing might help with high speed stability as the NSX greatly benefits from rear downforce.

 

[RYU]

Great topic. Something I think about often when tracking the NSX.

I'm thankful Billy, Ryan, Jim, and Willem post their videos for me to study my local tracks. Watching their videos always humble me because I come to grips with what it takes go drop that next Nth second from my time. I'll never be a professional driver and realized early that tinkering/tuning/modifying the NSX brought me joy. A lot of us watch these videos (especially Billy's) and think.. Dude... you've gotta be crazy to drive like that!! In fact, if I drove my car with that much corner entry speed I really would be clinically insane and irresponsible. I simply don't have the seat time, the practice, the coaching, and probably (these days) the reflexes and concentration. If I drove my car like that I feel it would simply be irresponsible to the folks that depend on me in real life. Could I ever get there? Realistically NO. Can I make it out of that corner still pointed in the right direction? Maybe. Simply not being sure and confident of the outcome is a big mental barrier to going into any corner as fast as I know my car is capable of doing...

I can continue to beat my PB with more seat time, additional safety equipment (for some peace of mind), and coaching. This is what i'm focusing on for the next few years. However, with only maybe 5-7 track days possible each year.. it's going to be a slow journey but i'm ok with that. The slower the better as long as I continue to prolong the fun safely.

These are the considerations that become my barrier to driving 10/10ths. In no particular order.
* I don't want to die and the thought of crashing really scares me
* I want to maximize fun or prolong it as long as possible which oftens means being able to countersteer, find the best line, chase your buddy who's faster
* I want to see if the improvements I made to the car made it better (or worse)
* I'm competitive and like to win (usually vs. myself in the case of beating my PB)
* I don't want to wreck the NSX
* I worry about mechanical failures A LOT especially in suspension components under high G loads at high speeds. This is my version of Willem's "going too fast" phobia.

As you can see many of these contradict each other. There are also many individual solutions to the above issues. The obvious one is seat time. Maybe perhaps buy a slower, cheaper, safer car but it's all a compromise that for various reasons I haven't been willing to do yet.

I think I will stay at 8/10ths for a while. I notice that's where I have my most fun and I think that's my comfort zone. A lot of fun for me is hanging out with the guys at the track. It's my own mini vacation from an often crazy work week. This brings up an interesting point... I look at track days to relax, blow off some steam, get the adrenaline going. Sometimes I go to track days more worn and tired than I should be. I never look forward to the weekend and think... I want to be the fastest guy out there.. rather.. I think.. I hope my car stays cool. I hope my car's vital stay in line. I hope i'm able to drive my NSX back home. I get very excited knowing, for as hard as I drive the car, the mods hold up and that they've improved on the platform. Call it the boyhood engineer dream I never pursued but instead I'm developing these . Then there's the whole beating your PB. It's probably a different mindset than most of the guys i'm sharing the track with.

Maybe I should take up golf again!!!

 

[ATB09]

It's almost subconscious. Add in a ton of seat time and ZERO fear of losing what you are driving to a total loss, and you can have a 10/10ths lap. I have run years of Club Racing with the SCCA in the Northeast. I hold track records at Lime Rock and NHMS. I have run under the track records at Watkins Glen and NJMP. That sort of mental and physical commitment only comes with an 'all in' attitude...and in my opinion that is tied to a car that you can walk away from.

I am co-owner of a company called Flatout Motorsports in Bellingham, MA. A TON of our business comes from guys who own really cool cars like NSX's, 911 GT3's, insert your favorite car...who do HPDE's with companies like SCDA. They love it, they get hooked...and the day comes where they cross the line in a code-brown moment. That sets the wheels in motion that they would like to keep 'progressing' for fun or maybe even try some wheel-to-wheel. Then they either rent from us or do some sort of arrive-and-drive.

Enjoy what you love but if your goal is to rip off a sessions worth of 10/10ths laps, you will want a dedicated track car and a REAL maintenance program that tracks hours on everything so you can replace stuff before it breaks.

 

[ryneen]

Much of what you said is how I have always felt (except for the golf part. Ha). However, I am getting closer to being able to run 9/10 and 10/10 at most tracks due to seat time. Looking at a predictive lap timer each lap has helped me a lot as well.

Great topic. Something I think about often when tracking the NSX.

I'm thankful Billy, Ryan, Jim, and Willem post their videos for me to study my local tracks. Watching their videos always humble me because I come to grips with what it takes go drop that next Nth second from my time. I'll never be a professional driver and realized early that tinkering/tuning/modifying the NSX brought me joy. A lot of us watch these videos (especially Billy's) and think.. Dude... you've gotta be crazy to drive like that!! In fact, if I drove my car with that much corner entry speed I really would be clinically insane and irresponsible. I simply don't have the seat time, the practice, the coaching, and probably (these days) the reflexes and concentration. If I drove my car like that I feel it would simply be irresponsible to the folks that depend on me in real life. Could I ever get there? Realistically NO. Can I make it out of that corner still pointed in the right direction? Maybe. Simply not being sure and confident of the outcome is a big mental barrier to going into any corner as fast as I know my car is capable of doing...

I can continue to beat my PB with more seat time, additional safety equipment (for some peace of mind), and coaching. This is what i'm focusing on for the next few years. However, with only maybe 5-7 track days possible each year.. it's going to be a slow journey but i'm ok with that. The slower the better as long as I continue to prolong the fun safely.

These are the considerations that become my barrier to driving 10/10ths. In no particular order.
* I don't want to die and the thought of crashing really scares me
* I want to maximize fun or prolong it as long as possible which oftens means being able to countersteer, find the best line, chase your buddy who's faster
* I want to see if the improvements I made to the car made it better (or worse)
* I'm competitive and like to win (usually vs. myself in the case of beating my PB)
* I don't want to wreck the NSX
* I worry about mechanical failures A LOT especially in suspension components under high G loads at high speeds. This is my version of Willem's "going too fast" phobia.

As you can see many of these contradict each other. There are also many individual solutions to the above issues. The obvious one is seat time. Maybe perhaps buy a slower, cheaper, safer car but it's all a compromise that for various reasons I haven't been willing to do yet.

I think I will stay at 8/10ths for a while. I notice that's where I have my most fun and I think that's my comfort zone. A lot of fun for me is hanging out with the guys at the track. It's my own mini vacation from an often crazy work week. This brings up an interesting point... I look at track days to relax, blow off some steam, get the adrenaline going. Sometimes I go to track days more worn and tired than I should be. I never look forward to the weekend and think... I want to be the fastest guy out there.. rather.. I think.. I hope my car stays cool. I hope my car's vital stay in line. I hope i'm able to drive my NSX back home. I get very excited knowing, for as hard as I drive the car, the mods hold up and that they've improved on the platform. Call it the boyhood engineer dream I never pursued but instead I'm developing these . Then there's the whole beating your PB. It's probably a different mindset than most of the guys i'm sharing the track with.

Maybe I should take up golf again!!!

 

[docjohn]

great point about lap times......if you are contemplating 10/10ths at hpde then you need concrete laptime data...maybe a log of corner exit rpm/speeds.....the mantra of most hpde is have fun learn lines and technique/etiquette...but when you are very experienced then what is left other that pace......

 

[ATB09]

And another good realization is that Billy's (insert local hot-shoe) 10/10ths is simply not everyone's 10/10ths. The best way to get better is to combine seat time (practice) with data review or hot-shoe review. Discussions on a corner-by-corner basis, braking points, braking strength, car positioning, throttle application etc. This is where the .1 of a second come from.

When you are out on the track in a race scenario 99% or the drivers think they are running at 10/10ths. when in reality they are running at 10/10ths of the DRIVERS ability or comfort level. Every session, every day there is something to learn because there is always someone better. The trick to this thing is to never be satisfied and to keep your attitude totally accepting to any differing concept.

Moving your 'current' 10/10ths to a new 10/10ths is the real goal. Fun stuff!

 

[docjohn]

anther great point.....if we rely on our feelings of what is fast we will never progress.I have on occasion made my passenger think we were going faster or more on edge artificially just by altering inputs ..makes for a more memorable experience for them.:wink:

 

[robfenn]

I would be careful approaching a track with the mindset that you are going to give it everything you've got - what if what you've got isn't enough?

Whilst experience is essential to this, i don't know any decent driver who is simply self-taught. Seat time needs to initially involve coaching from an experienced professional that can point out and help fix your flaws. Once you are at a decent level, one-on-one stuff falls into diminishing returns and you need to turn to telemetry data. This is because the difference between your best and ABSOLUTE best will be a few tenths of a second, at best.

My advice would be to anyone to stop spending money on your car and spend it on your self. Your 10/10ths of today needn't be your 10/10ths of tomorrow.

 

[Coz]

This is pretty much it in a nutshell. Couldn't have said it any better.

And another good realization is that Billy's (insert local hot-shoe) 10/10ths is simply not everyone's 10/10ths. The best way to get better is to combine seat time (practice) with data review or hot-shoe review. Discussions on a corner-by-corner basis, braking points, braking strength, car positioning, throttle application etc. This is where the .1 of a second come from.

When you are out on the track in a race scenario 99% or the drivers think they are running at 10/10ths. when in reality they are running at 10/10ths of the DRIVERS ability or comfort level. Every session, every day there is something to learn because there is always someone better. The trick to this thing is to never be satisfied and to keep your attitude totally accepting to any differing concept.

Moving your 'current' 10/10ths to a new 10/10ths is the real goal. Fun stuff!