McLaren guilty
- Thread starter Klayton
- Start date
http://www.formula1.com/news/headlines/2007/9/6767.html
From the official site. They deserve it but I don't understand how FA and LH can go on with title fight
From the official site. They deserve it but I don't understand how FA and LH can go on with title fight
Part of the statement :
So at least Alonso and Hamilton still retains their driver points.
Besides, .. like Alonso claimed the other day, .. he doesn't really care about the championship points.
http://www.itv-f1.com/News_Article.aspx?PO_ID=40617
Cheers .. Gus
So at least Alonso and Hamilton still retains their driver points.
Besides, .. like Alonso claimed the other day, .. he doesn't really care about the championship points.
http://www.itv-f1.com/News_Article.aspx?PO_ID=40617
Cheers .. Gus
$100 million? That sounds like real money to me. 
Re: Bernie's saying "OK, case closed, let's go racing"
Hmmmmmm, Bernie and the whole F-1 pyramid had to hope (make sure?) it went down that way; to put it all behind them and take if off the front pages. $100 mill certainly makes for a good story, even more than the real devastation of being DQ'd from the constructor championship. It will be interesting to see if the full amount of that fine is collected.
Hmmmmmm, Bernie and the whole F-1 pyramid had to hope (make sure?) it went down that way; to put it all behind them and take if off the front pages. $100 mill certainly makes for a good story, even more than the real devastation of being DQ'd from the constructor championship. It will be interesting to see if the full amount of that fine is collected.
I'm surprised nobody has mentioned that the Works Honda team is now leading Mercedes McLaren in the constructors championship LOL!
The decision will most likely to be reveresed or lightan in the near future, because:
1. 100 million is huge, that's about 2/5 ~1/3 McLaren's annual budget
2. They will loose all of their competiveness when compete with giants like Ferrari
3. They will not be able to support their up coming "B" team Prodrive
etc.
etc...
The rulling did not make sense.
One can also argue that... Ferrari on their hand, did not receive any punishment for what the damage to team McLaren caused by one of their employees, AND they had the constructor's championship hand over to them on a silver platter. After all, McLaren did not solicit the information, it was given to them.
Little conspiracy here: What if Ferrari set McLaren up by paying off Stephenygate huge amount of money behind the door for him to set up McLaren and cause them to take the fall?
Some thing is fishy....
1. 100 million is huge, that's about 2/5 ~1/3 McLaren's annual budget
2. They will loose all of their competiveness when compete with giants like Ferrari
3. They will not be able to support their up coming "B" team Prodrive
etc.
etc...
The rulling did not make sense.
One can also argue that... Ferrari on their hand, did not receive any punishment for what the damage to team McLaren caused by one of their employees, AND they had the constructor's championship hand over to them on a silver platter. After all, McLaren did not solicit the information, it was given to them.
Little conspiracy here: What if Ferrari set McLaren up by paying off Stephenygate huge amount of money behind the door for him to set up McLaren and cause them to take the fall?
Some thing is fishy....
Autosport said:
As evidenced by his quote, Coughlan only took the stolen Ferrari documents so as to not appear rude :biggrin:
First the FIA said McLaren were at fault, but didn't levy a penalty. Now, after this damning evidence, they have confirmed McLaren's guilty status, but continue to allow LH and FA to compete in the driver's championship
There are far more details intended for release by the WMSC on Friday, but the punishment fits the crime, the only change I would have made was either exclusion, or some sort of points penalty, for LH/FA, the primary benefactors of this stolen information. "Honest Ron" was caught red-handed, with as much 'information sharing' as Coughlan admitted to earlier in the day:
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/62303
I don't see how anyone cannot demand at least the level of penalties that were handed out.
I think Mclauren will appeal. $100 million, where does that money go, Mosley's pocket? That's extreme.
Ferrari did not win the championship. It was given to them. Not the way a real team wants to get the championship.
Ferrari did not win the championship. It was given to them. Not the way a real team wants to get the championship.
fwiw, the $100m includes 'estimated lost revenue' - the actual fine, if its ever paid, is significantly less. The figure is intended to send a message; a driver's championship point penalty would have been more significant, and might have reduced the impact McLaren's possession of these materials has already had on this year's championship standings.
An interesting theory I heard following the decision today, with regard to the driver's championship, has to do with the offer given to McLaren's drivers a week ago, offering a sort of amnesty in exchange for all information pertaining to this situation. At the time the faux PDLR/FA email was going around, so this sounded significant, but according to autosport the drivers offered very little in the way of substantial evidence at today's hearing. The feeling is this amnesty was offered, with the knowledge the drivers had limited information to contribute, to avoid being put in a position where imposing a driver's championship penalty was a viable option. Essentially Mosley setup this amnesty offer to avoid the potential for driver's points penalties, or championship exclusion, against Alonso/Hamilton.
So how is chamionship point converted to $? Anyone knows.
I think it is fair the drivers don't get penalized. It is like if a father robbed a bank and fed the kids with the money he stole. Should the kid go to jail?
I think it is fair the drivers don't get penalized. It is like if a father robbed a bank and fed the kids with the money he stole. Should the kid go to jail?
The machines FA and LH were driving benefited from the confidential data obtained by McLaren from Ferrari; not only did they (in the eyes of the WMSC) have a physical performance increase as a result of this stolen data, McLaren also used this information to report certain aspects of the Ferrari to the FIA, eg the movable floor issue raised at the start of the season. As McLaren had diagrams of every inch of the Ferrari they could report this item, and as a result Ferrari lost a fair amount of pace, and had its development program put off schedule. McLaren could have similar 'questionable' devices, but McLaren's competitors don't have similar data on McLaren's F1 challanger, so they cannot lodge similar complaints with the FIA. This was one of the complaints mentioned by Jean Todt following the first meeting regarding this issue - he was asked by reporters if he knew of any examples of Ferrari parts on the McLaren, and responded with something along the lines of "we don't have their schematics, so we cannot make this conclusion" - as you're probably aware, these details are critical to a formula 1 car, and are kept strictly confidential
The data benefited McLaren's cars, and reduced the pace of its main rival. When races are decided in large part on hundredths of a second in Q3 this is a huge difference, races were won/lost based on this stolen data. Should Lewis Hamilton and Fernando Alonso benefit in the driver's championship, over an unfair advantage they enjoyed as a result of this stolen data? The WMSC has deemed it necessary to eliminate McLaren's constructor's championship standings, certainly they feel this data constituted an unfair advantage, so why should the driver's standings of these two be allowed to remain unchanged, in the face of this revelation? If the intention of the driver's championship is to show which driver/machine is best, and the two leading drivers benefited from an illegal action by their team, why should they not be penalized for it, to reduce the impact this illegal action had on their standings?
Because may be they did not do anything wrong in this case.
The WMSC disagrees with you :smile:
McLaren's constructors championship standings have been eliminated, they have been fined $100m, because they did something wrong.
You seem to be a fan of analogies; if you're in a parking lot, and some dude offers to sell you a new plasma out of the back of his van for $100, which turns out to be stolen, would it be unfair of the police to seize that stolen property and return it to its original owner?
If you benefit from an unjust competitive advantage, even if you're not involved in what led to this unfair advantage, you should not enjoy immunity from an FIA 'adjustment' to even out the playing field, and reduce the impact of this advantage. The drivers may have done nothing personally wrong (or they may have, we have not yet read the full report, due tomorrow) but they still benefited from the situation, and their driver's championship standings have been artificially inflated as a result of McLaren's violation of the International Sporting Code. Why should Kimi and Massa have to compete, on equal standings, against a team with an unfair advantage?
As far as I understand, Hamilton and Alonso are not charged with anything. I am just saying the drivers did nothing wrong. I don't disagree with you that Mclauren team is gyilty.
I think one should be penalized only if did something wrong.
lets just say that both cars of ferrari and mclaren are "ferrari spec". The drivers shouldnt get penalized because when it comes down to it they each had a similar car. They got their points based on how good they were at driving not just how good the car is or because mclaren is better.The cars are evenly matched.Thats the reason why i dont think the drivers should get screwed for their points. Plus they didnt know of any wrong doing.
Mclaren has always been fast.The only real difference this year is just that their car is way more reliable than last year when kimi and montoya were there. If anything thats probably the only thing they really benefited from the info given to them. RELIABILITY. Thats if they really had the info from caughlan.
they talk about ferrari having a disadvantage which made them fall second to mclaren... I think thats BS. Mclaren was just reliable and was able to keep their pace plus sorry ass jean todt cant follow in the footsteps of ross brawn so he has to stoop as low as he did to be able to win. Man...talk about winning by hook or crook. From what i heard from speed tv from David Hobbs , Steve Matchett, and Bob Varsha on prior f1 episodes is that f1 information has always been exchanged from teams to teams but no one ever made a big fuss about it. Hell they even said that Ferrari was notorious for doing that themselves but that now that Ferrari has it done to them by someone else theyre crying like litle babies. I guess Ferrari feels that with no ross brawn and michael schumaker theyre probaly done with the SUPER TEAM image they had. I dont blame him if he does feel like that because from what ive seen it seem like there is more Ferrari cars with mechanical failures than before when ross brawn was around. Ross brawn was always really big on having reliability first. It seems like Jean todt is frustrated by what THE MAN at Ferrari might say about how he is doing his job as compared to Ross brawn.
Mclaren has always been fast.The only real difference this year is just that their car is way more reliable than last year when kimi and montoya were there. If anything thats probably the only thing they really benefited from the info given to them. RELIABILITY. Thats if they really had the info from caughlan.
they talk about ferrari having a disadvantage which made them fall second to mclaren... I think thats BS. Mclaren was just reliable and was able to keep their pace plus sorry ass jean todt cant follow in the footsteps of ross brawn so he has to stoop as low as he did to be able to win. Man...talk about winning by hook or crook. From what i heard from speed tv from David Hobbs , Steve Matchett, and Bob Varsha on prior f1 episodes is that f1 information has always been exchanged from teams to teams but no one ever made a big fuss about it. Hell they even said that Ferrari was notorious for doing that themselves but that now that Ferrari has it done to them by someone else theyre crying like litle babies. I guess Ferrari feels that with no ross brawn and michael schumaker theyre probaly done with the SUPER TEAM image they had. I dont blame him if he does feel like that because from what ive seen it seem like there is more Ferrari cars with mechanical failures than before when ross brawn was around. Ross brawn was always really big on having reliability first. It seems like Jean todt is frustrated by what THE MAN at Ferrari might say about how he is doing his job as compared to Ross brawn.
How interesting that it was Coughlan's wife who took the Ferrari document to be scanned on to a disk.
How did the print shop know that she was not working for Ferrari? Did she wear a Mclauren shirt when she had it scanned? Probebly very unlikely.
If I remember correctly, it was the print shop employee who reported the incident. How , how ?????
How did the print shop know that she was not working for Ferrari? Did she wear a Mclauren shirt when she had it scanned? Probebly very unlikely.
If I remember correctly, it was the print shop employee who reported the incident. How , how ?????
wow, tell us how you really feel
Apparently you feel McLaren have no ability of their own to engineer a formula race car; the problem isn't that both machines are equal, the problem is one team knows every detail of the other team's car, and was able to build a superior car by building on, and modifying around, that knowledge - this constitutes an unfair competative advantage, and is clearly against the sporting regulations.
McLaren was able to obtain confidential information from another team, they were able to use this to their advantage, and they are being punished for it. If the situation were reversed, and Ferrari had stolen information from McLaren, would you not be screaming bloody murder? The bias on this, a Honda forum, is amazing.
Ferrari is not based in the United Kingdom, I doubt they would fly their confidential documents from Maranello to a Kinko's mart there, in order to make duplicates; how lucky are we that the print shop employee was able to identify this serious situation, and allow the sport to try to at least salvage some degree of legitimacy?
What does Ferrari not based in UK has anything to do with what I said.
Did you read my entire post? You questioned why the print shop employee was suspicious of Ms. Coughlan asking to have a 700+ page confidential Ferrari dossier digitized; clearly a British copy store is not where an Italian-based team would have this done, perhaps this is what caused the employee to become suspicious?
This is assuming she was not, as you suggested, wearing a "Mclauren" shirt.
Now I get what you're saying.
IMHO, the reason that FA/LH were not penalized is because the SHOW must go on. If both were also DQ'd from driver's championship, there would be no reason for McLaren cars to keep racing the rest of the season. It would be boring to see Ferrari to win all of the remaining races if no McLaren cars to challenge them.
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