LED headlamp bulbs in the future????

[davidf]

While Auto manufacturers are slowly converting to LED headlighting, I'm curious and "very hopeful" the aftermarket will follow close behind. I'm curious how a pure white LED would work with our older style projectors.

 

[Nero Tenebre]

It's already possible. I just put in 80watt Cree led bulbs for fog lights on my daily, they put out 13,000 lumens which is bright enough to be DOT approved for headlamps. I'm running them continuously during operation to test their reliability before I go replacing headlamps. You can ask PoKnow how bright they are or see them in person! I can send you more pics, but they are rockin' so far. Not as bright as HID though but no electronic ballast to wire up or fail- though I did need resistors because this car has bulb replacement warnings through the computer system (so they are fooled into thinking its halogen). I'm also going to test some for high beams since they don't have a warm up period like hid and they come on instantly.

 

[Nero Tenebre]

 

[davidf]

What is that DD of yours? I'm digging those wheels. Where did you get the lamps? I'd like to look them up.

 

[Nero Tenebre]

CLK550 Widebody tuned by Renntech, HRE P40 wheels. You've never seen it?? It's more extensively modded than the NSX, haha.

Bought the led on eBay from a really great seller, sylvania had the wrong bulbs listed for my car which I found out when I went to go install them the first time. I exchanged them with no hassle and got resistors too so now they work like a charm. Excellent service:
http://bit.ly/1ertAsm

 

[ChrisK]

Very interesting. So these are not as bright as HID's obviously, but how much brighter are they compared to halogen? If they are decently brighter, they would still be a great upgrade from halogen bulbs.

 

[davidf]

No I have not seen it. I love those.

CLK550 Widebody tuned by Renntech, HRE P40 wheels. You've never seen it?? It's more extensively modded than the NSX, haha.

Bought the led on eBay from a really great seller, sylvania had the wrong bulbs listed for my car which I found out when I went to go install them the first time. I exchanged them with no hassle and got resistors too so now they work like a charm. Excellent service:
http://bit.ly/1ertAsm

View attachment 108389

- - - Updated - - -

But if you'll notice, the newer Acura's/Benz's LED's are not really as intense as the HID's. Their just more white. I'm surprised no ones tried these in the NSX. I had no idea these were available.

Very interesting. So these are not as bright as HID's obviously, but how much brighter are they compared to halogen? If they are decently brighter, they would still be a great upgrade from halogen bulbs.

 

[Hapa88]

I just put in 80watt Cree led bulbs for fog lights on my daily, they put out 13,000 lumens which is bright enough to be DOT approved for headlamps....Not as bright as HID though but no electronic ballast to wire up or fail

Something doesn't add up here...
Typical Halogen 55W headlight bulbs put out around 800 - 1500 lumens. Foglight bulbs usually run the same wattage or ~55w if halogen and depending on the car.

35Watt HID does around 3200 lumens. 55Watt HID does around 5000 lumens.

I got so many questions;
1) 13,000 lumens from 80 watt LEDs but yet they still aren't as bright as HID? 13,000 is over 2.5x brighter than 55watt's 5000 lumens..
2) Did you mean to say 1,300 lumens?
3) If they really require 80 watts, do you have the right wiring to power them?
4) How much did they cost? 55watt HID kits are around $40 now.

 

[davidf]

I can't think of any LED that draws 80 watts of current. Maybe he means it produces 80 watts.

Something doesn't add up here...
Typical Halogen 55W headlight bulbs put out around 800 - 1500 lumens. Foglight bulbs usually run the same wattage or ~55w if halogen and depending on the car.

35Watt HID does around 3200 lumens. 55Watt HID does around 5000 lumens.

I got so many questions;
1) 13,000 lumens from 80 watt LEDs but yet they still aren't as bright as HID? 13,000 is over 2.5x brighter than 55watt's 5000 lumens..
2) Did you mean to say 1,300 lumens?
3) If they really require 80 watts, do you have the right wiring to power them?
4) How much did they cost? 55watt HID kits are around $40 now.

 

[Nero Tenebre]

I went back and looked and yes I was mistakingly adding a zero. Silly mistake but the statements are still accurate except the number.

Here are the specs from the eBay page:

Specification:

Color: 6000K White
Power: 80W
Lumen: 1300LM
Chips: 16 Cree XB-D Chips(5W for each)
Color temperature: 5500~6500K
Dimension: 64 x 17.97 mm
Housing Material: Aluminum Alloy
Lens: Virtually Unbreakable PMMA Lens

Feature:

High performance LED, long lifespan, superior illumination & stability

High luminous efficiency with over 500 Lumen high brightness light output

Made by high quality aluminum alloy housing can + virtually unbreakable PMMA Lens.

Aluminum alloy shell acts as radiant heat sink, ensure the secure temperature range.

Environmental-friendly: energy saving, no UV and IR radiation, shock-proof and anti-corrosion.

Easy installation, just plug & play

Faster on/off response time and vibration resistant

If the LED does not light up, simply flip it 180 degrees (reverse the polarity)

The kit was $50 and another $7-10 for resistors but I debated for a long time about these vs HID bc the cost has come down along with defect rate. I didn't want to go with old tech so HID was out as this was more of a personal experiment anyway. For headlights I prefer the extra output of HID as 1300 LM was barely bright enough for DOT approval for headlights... but it won't be long before LEDs catch up. Right now that's why Acura is using marketing spin to call their multiple source LED headlights "jewel eyes"- really it's because they are probably saving cost by using more of cheaper bulbs instead of better and more expensive, fewer LEDs.

And yes- it must produce 80 watts because LEDs do draw much less current than other types of lighting. The Cree bulb replacements for 60w incandescent light replacements at Home Depot use only 9.5w to produce the same 800 LM and CFL uses about 13.5w by comparison.

 

[Hapa88]

I went back and looked and yes I was mistakingly adding a zero. Silly mistake

Here are the specs from the eBay page:

Specification:

Color: 6000K White
Power: 80W
Lumen: 1300LM
Chips: 16 Cree XB-D Chips(5W for each)
Color temperature: 5500~6500K
Dimension: 64 x 17.97 mm
Housing Material: Aluminum Alloy
Lens: Virtually Unbreakable PMMA Lens

Feature:

High performance LED, long lifespan, superior illumination & stability

High luminous efficiency with over 500 Lumen high brightness light output

Made by high quality aluminum alloy housing can + virtually unbreakable PMMA Lens.

Aluminum alloy shell acts as radiant heat sink, ensure the secure temperature range.

Environmental-friendly: energy saving, no UV and IR radiation, shock-proof and anti-corrosion.

Easy installation, just plug & play

Faster on/off response time and vibration resistant

If the LED does not light up, simply flip it 180 degrees (reverse the polarity)

The kit was $50 and another $7-10 for resistors but I debated for a long time about these vs HID bc the cost has come down along with defect rate. I didn't want to go with old tech so HID was out as this was more of a personal experiment anyway. For headlights I prefer the extra output of HID as 1300 LM was barely bright enough for DOT approval for headlights... but it won't be long before LEDs catch up. Right now that's why Acura is using marketing spin to call their multiple source LED headlights "jewel eyes"- really it's because they are probably saving cost by using more of cheaper bulbs instead of better and more expensive, fewer LEDs.

Yeah, LED does seem to be coming up but I don't think it's quite reached the masses yet. I give it another year or two.

$50 for a 55W 5000 lumen HID kit can't really be beat IMHO (take this from the early adopter that bought his first HID kits at over $350).

$60 for LEDs that draw 80 watts and only output 1300 lumens? I applaud you for the experimenting... but on paper it looks like HID is still #1, Halogen #2, and LED is far behind in price, performance and power draw.

Can't wait to see what the future has in store though.

 

[davidf]

http://www.ebay.com/itm/like/380740876970?lpid=82


http://hidconcept.com/index.php?l=product_detail&p=119

 

[Nero Tenebre]

Yeah, LED does seem to be coming up but I don't think it's quite reached the masses yet. I give it another year or two.

$50 for a 55W 5000 lumen HID kit can't really be beat IMHO (take this from the early adopter that bought his first HID kits at over $350).

$60 for LEDs that draw 80 watts and only output 1300 lumens? I applaud you for the experimenting... but on paper it looks like HID is still #1, Halogen #2, and LED is far behind in price, performance and power draw.

Can't wait to see what the future has in store though.

I would agree with you but for fog lamps and for high beams I would still prefer LED just because of instant startup and longer life. Plus no ballast to defect especially like they use on the cheaper HID kits. A $40 kit isn't like a $100 or $200 kit still IMO. I also paid $400 6 years ago for my McCulloch HID kit and it has worked well but the $50 kits I bought and installed for others all failed so that was the main reason to use LED. I think the technology is much simpler without electronic ballasts and the light quality is amazing even if the power isn't there yet! It's on the verge and emerging as viable for headlights... When HID was in this stage it cost ten times more due to the added complexity.

 

[Hapa88]

While Auto manufacturers are slowly converting to LED headlighting, I'm curious and "very hopeful" the aftermarket will follow close behind. I'm curious how a pure white LED would work with our older style projectors.

I'm pretty sure that, theoretically, LED retrofit bulbs will look almost indisinguishable from any other bulb source in terms of beam pattern. That's because a good retrofit would try to match the form, fit and function of the original and keep the light emitting part of the bulb (the filament in a halogen bulb) in the same exact place as the one it replaces. While the color and brightness may vary, I think the beam pattern will be influenced more on the projector housing than anything else (assuming a "good" retrofit LED bulb).

Color temperature of white LEDs seem to match closest to 5000k (pure white) to 6000k (very slight hint of blue) HID.

- - - Updated - - -

I would agree with you but for fog lamps and for high beams I would still prefer LED just because of instant startup and longer life. Plus no ballast to defect especially like they use on the cheaper HID kits. A $40 kit isn't like a $100 or $200 kit still IMO. I also paid $400 6 years ago for my McCulloch HID kit and it has worked well but the $50 kits I bought and installed for others all failed so that was the main reason to use LED. I think the technology is much simpler without electronic ballasts and the light quality is amazing even if the power isn't there yet! It's on the verge and emerging as viable for headlights... When HID was in this stage it cost ten times more due to the added complexity.

Totally agree with you on the cost and complexity parts.
My $350 DDM/Apexcone HID just ran into a snag the other week (one bulb would intermittantly go out) and I just replaced it with their current $40 one. Got over 6years of daily driving out of that kit with no issues, so I'd say I got my money's worth. Hoping I can get at least 3 years out of this one.

The "longer life" isn't much of a selling point for me in car applications considering my 6+ year experience with the HIDs. I tend to replace my cars at about the 8 year mark, so I think this kit should bring me to the end. Haha
And why do people need "instant on" on cars? I can see it on home applications but for cars it takes my kit like 30 secs to fully warm up and in that time I'm not even out of my driveway! Does fog roll in that quickly in Texas? Haha. :tongue:

 

[Nero Tenebre]

Well my $50 kits that all crapped out were DDM tuning and their lifetime warranty was bullshit so I threw them out after continually hearing complaints about how I messed up those cars trying to be fancy. So, part of this is my sour experience with HID.

The instant on is a must for high beams, as those can be used for flashing when appropriate... Not so much the fog lights. But the light quality is still much nicer with LED so IMO still ideal for fogs. They are more like style lights than fog lights, look at the detail that shows in what they illuminate. Since I've gotten them I drive with them on all the time and they look nice without being overly bright and don't have the same haze/bleeding that HID does.

To each his own though-- Using a mix of tech until LED replaces everything!

 

[jwmelvin]

And yes- it must produce 80 watts because LEDs do draw much less current than other types of lighting. The Cree bulb replacements for 60w incandescent light replacements at Home Depot use only 9.5w to produce the same 800 LM and CFL uses about 13.5w by comparison.

Remember: the light does not produce more power than it takes in. 80 W is less than 7 A of current, which is not a lot. It does seem odd that they are so much less efficient than what we see from household LED bulbs. These are just over 16 lm/W whereas you can get single LED emitters to do around 100 lm/W these days and above 50 lm/W in practical applications. Perhaps the car-headlight environment is really that difficult to operate in.

- - - Updated - - -

This is an interesting article about LED headlamp design. It's a couple years old but I learned a bunch about the tradeoffs between HID and LED. Seems like the optical efficiency of the housing is a major factor and because LEDs both radiate light and lose heat differently than HID bulbs, the housing design is quite different. So retrofitting will never take full advantage of LEDs. Other articles are fun too (the second link there shows a halogen replacement that delivers 55-75 lm/W because it includes the optical housing).

I applaud you for adopting these now; with some more brightness, it seems like they would make perfect sense for high beams (where I am glad I didn't use HID because of the turn-on delay).

 

[davidf]

Can you say retrofit.:wink:
http://www.jwspeaker.com/other/new-90mm-led-projector-headlights

 

[Hapa88]

Can you say retrofit.:wink:
http://www.jwspeaker.com/other/new-90mm-led-projector-headlights

Did you see their graphs? Their Low beam is almost as bright as the standard halogen high beam.. Boy, could that pose some dangers on the road!! :biggrin:

- - - Updated - - -

To each his own though-- Using a mix of tech until LED replaces everything!

No shame in that. I'm sure the LEDs look great! LEDs are coming along for sure. I just replaced my bumper lens corner lights with 3watt CREE leds and I think it looks pretty good. Rated at 200 lumens @ 3 watts, or 67 lm/w

Remember: the light does not produce more power than it takes in. 80 W is less than 7 A of current, which is not a lot.

My biggest concern for Nero is for him to make sure he's not overloading the factory wiring, since most of the time fog light bulbs are wired for 55 watt halogens..

It does seem odd that they are so much less efficient than what we see from household LED bulbs. These are just over 16 lm/W whereas you can get single LED emitters to do around 100 lm/W these days and above 50 lm/W in practical applications.

I completely agree. Something is wrong because the standard Halogen bulbs are way more efficent than these LEDs.
Halogen 55w = 1200 lumens or 21 lm/w
HID 55w = 5000 lumens or 90 lm/w
HID 35w = 3200 lumens or 91 lm/w
This LED kit 80w = 1,300 lumens or 16.25 lm/w
davidf's link to LED kit on hidconcept.com had a kit that had 23 w = 1,800 lumens or 78 lm/w.

 

[Nero Tenebre]

I bet you that 80w is inaccurate, and that it is a "comparable to 80w" halogen. Another reason I think this is that the wiring seems fine and 55 to 80w is a big jump. I just don't see each led in the 16 using 5watts of energy. The hallmark of led is the low energy consumption and great efficiency so I think the 80w has got to be off.

Maybe they made my same mistake and it's 8 watts Plus I don't think my bulbs would work if it were 80 watts, probably would report an error since it's a euro.