sjs:
Some extremely good points! Let me address them...and just so you know I respect your opinions, so none of this is meant sarcastically...
"I didn't say that stainless steel was equivalent, just that it offered similar benefits far above simple iron."
I apologize...I thought you were comparing stainless steel to ceramic.
"I don't know about your claims of orders of magnitude difference, or what that even translates to in the real world, but I am confident that you will not see a major decrease in engine bay temp on your NSX."
In the real world we're just talking thermal conductivity. And the thermal conductivity of cermanic is orders of magnitude lower than stainless steel. In the real world this translates to much lower heat conductivity into the headers, and out of the headers.
"The headers hang far enough down that while you are moving there isn't all that much heat coming up to begin with. Have you measured the engine compartment temp while driving? It might be worth doing before spending time and money to fix what isn’t broken."
Then I must ask you the same...have you checked how the thermal currents flow in your engine bay while driving? I tend to agree with you, you're right...your engine bay will be much cooler while driving and the large quantities of heat given off by the header manifolds will not have as much of an effect. This is the same thing said to people who use a cold air intake over a ram air. Once you're going, a ram air intake does at least as well of a job as cold air, even better because you have less of a vacuum effect.
But what I must point out is that your car is not constantly moving, and at a good pace (40mph or above should be sufficient) from the point where you turn it on to when you turn it off. From a stop, say, a red light, you have stagnant air that has heated up your entire engine bay in a matter of seconds. Even during normal city driving, 0-20 mph, you don't have enough airflow to sufficiently counteract the heat produced by the headers.
And of course this isn't a case where you're trying to fix something that isn't broken. This is a case where you're trying to improve upon something. Adding a turbo to your car isn't done because something is broken either. You point out that manufacturers have stepped up to stainless steel from iron for the same reason that I am saying it would improve performance to step up from stainless steel to coated stainless steel. If the thermal effects of stainless steel over iron weren't a big deal, Acura wouldn't be spending the extra money for it. By the same token, I am suggesting spending a couple hundred to coat everything, improving this further. That was the whole idea from the start
I honestly don't want your $50, and it would cost me more to go find a friend with an NSX, coat his headers, and dyno his car than that $50 would cover. So sorry, you don't have a taker. And honestly, sjs, if you don't want to buy it that's perfectly fine. I was never here to sell you or anyone else a product, though that's what it seems to have turned into with me defending Jet Hot here. I'm just doing a groupbuy, it is going on, if you want to join in the offer is there, if not, that's fine as well.
"People who tell you that are the same ones selling the stuff, what else would you expect them to say?"
Of course the people who are selling this to me would tell me this. It's a bit of a catch 22, if they tell me something good about their product, you'll post something like the above, and if they tell me something bad, you obviously won't want to buy it, so you're not going to want it no matter what the truth is. You sound like you've dealt with a lot of shady businessmen, but I honestly trust these guys. Todd and Matt at Jet Hot sound like good, to the point, honest guys. They told me that the gains I would see are scalable...and are obviously much more pronounced on a drag car than a street car. I don't automatically doubt people, and it sounds like you do...I guess I'm just a less pessimistic person.
"That’s a huge gain and not supported by any test I’ve seen even compared to plain steel headers much less stainless, and it simply defies common sense."
You're right, I've never seen a dyno of an NSX with headers coated that show a 5 hp improvement either, and one probably isn't in existence yet. But you know what sjs? If they're telling you they'll give you your money back and strip the coating if you're not happy, what do you honestly have to lose? A little time. And what do you have to gain? Cheap horsepower. So come on now.
As for the defying common sense...does Acura going from iron to stainless headers, for the exact reason you stated, defy common sense? No? Does coating an extremely hot metal piece with a highly insulating material and then claiming that the coated material will output less heat than the uncoated material defy common sense? No? Okay then.
Does arguing with a guy who already has a groupbuy going and was just extending a friendly offer defy common sense? Yes. Does saying no to a no liability offer of cheap horsepower on your NSX defy common sense? Yes.
As for suggesting about research...I've read...it's been inconclusive. Just like dynos are usually inconclusive. I have one guy who dynoed before and after and gained 3% on his civic. Another, dynoed his accord after and didn't gain as much as most do with standard non-coated CT headers. What does this and contradicting independent articles tell me? It's probably better to logically reason this out. In terms of physics and real world application their statements make absolutely perfect sense. On top of that my headers, intake, and downpipe will stay looking a beautiful chrome. And on top of that they're all protected against rust (yeah the metal flanges on at least my CT headers are not SS, so they rust) and the elements. And if I'm not happy they'll strip it all off and give me a full refund. This is a no brainer sjs.
"Are there any using these coatings? (I’m not sure, there may be.) If it is magnitudes better than stainless then it should really help lower emissions, and if it also yields more HP, then the bonus is double."
Well...they do have a list of companies that do use their coatings...Matt said there were more I can get a list if you'd like:
http://www.jet-hot.com/vehicles.html
But if the only question in your mind is if this coating retains heat much better than SS, that's an easy Q to answer. Yes, definitely. They use ceramic on space ships, that's why. They use ceramic in kilns, that's why. They use ceramic in high intensity brakes, that's why.
"I would expect some of the high-end cars coming with it by now, it certainly isn’t anything new. OK, admittedly there may be an issue with durability that discourages them, but if the benefits are so great then they’d solve that."
I can only assume it's an added cost that they don't want to have to deal with. A while back most companies used iron instead of SS as well. Not only that but you have to purchase the equipment to spray the headers, overhead that the manufacturer would rather not deal with. But I'm not so sure if this is a really fair argument. See, there are a lot of performance modifications that can be done to any high end car, including the NSX. By your argument Acura should have done them all, including this one. But if your argument were valid then most of the modification related forums, such as this one and others, would die out, because no more modifications would be needed...
You just have to ask yourself in a situation like this where no amount of my arguments for or your arguments against are going to come to some awe inspiring enlightening outcome...what have you really got to lose? Nothing...and what have you got to gain? Cheap horsepower, a nice look, protected parts, lower temperatures...that about sold it to me.
Austin519
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2002 Black/Black Acura TL-S Project
http://www.acura-tl.org
Quote:
IntegraVT - "Maybe we can organize a Neosporin® group buy for you."
[This message has been edited by Austin519 (edited 17 September 2002).]
