Jalopnik Article 10/7

[Dhalsim]

Don't think there is anything new here that we didn't know. 458 performance for Audi R8 price.

http://jalopnik.com/once-again-the-acura-nsx-targets-ferrari-for-a-fractio-1643380797

It's been kind of a while since we've heard anything about the upcoming 2015 Acura NSX, but the folks at Honda are still apparently hammering away at their hybrid supercar. And now they've released some actual performance targets: Ferrari 458 performance for an Audi R8 price tag. Sound familiar?
New NSX Spotted Looking Good, Running Hard At The Nürburgring

About a year after we saw the new Honda/Acura NSX carving up a track in Ohio, it's just been…Read more

It should, because the original NSX was benchmarked against the Ferrari 328 and 348 back during its development in the 1980s. It looks like Honda wants the new car to go the same way.

Here's what NSX development chief Ted Klaus told What Car:

'We have to achieve the type of acceleration that the customer is achieving with the Ferrari,' said Klaus. 'More importantly we have to achieve this every day and also at the Nurburgring.'

However, he said that the intention is to keep Honda's new petrol-electric hybrid supercar more affordable than the 458. 'I think we are aiming within the range of the Audi R8,' he said. 'I realise that is a wide range but the NSX will still be extremely accessible.'

Of course, the new NSX will be a very different car than the 458 Italia, using a twin turbo hybrid V6 instead of the Ferrari's naturally aspirated V8. But with more and more supercars going hybrid, like the Audi R8, it should be in good company.

Klaus also implied there could be more variants of the new NSX down the road, like a more high-performance version or a convertible, but they haven't decided which to go with first.

Honda says the next NSX will be unveiled in production form a year from now at the 2015 Tokyo Motor Show. It's been a long, long wait for this car, and Honda is talking a big game.

Let's hope the NSX can back it up.

 

[robr]

You beat me by a few minutes. Was just coming to post this

 

[Osiris_x11]

http://jalopnik.com/once-again-the-acura-nsx-targets-ferrari-for-a-fractio-1643380797

Honda says the next NSX will be unveiled in production form a year from now at the 2015 Tokyo Motor Show. It's been a long, long wait for this car...

2015 Tokyo Motor Show: October 29th - November 8th

And another year...

 

[N Spec]

Not surprising considering we haven't seen or heard any concrete details recently. I bet the power specs will be released soon though...

 

[lucky]

FFS yet another year, it was supposed to be released as a 2015 model (that means showing in late 2014 with deliveries starting no later than Jan 2015 in my mind... GRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR

 

[docjohn]

There are certainly some internal issues going on because my dealer was given the green light to take a deposit for march 2015 delivery

 

[Craigy]

2015 Tokyo Motor Show: October 29th - November 8th

And another year...

Wow!!!!

 

[Arshad]

Not surprising. Timing is interesting because it will coincide with production release of Audi's new R8 based on the Huracan platform. I expect the base V10 (non-plus) will probably be around 560hp, and the plus around 585hp. Chip it and unleash the full 605hp.

I'm assuming Honda is targeting the V10 and not the V8 if their target is the 458. If they can keep it under $160k and exceed the performance and fit/finish of the R8, then they could have a winner. R8 will have a proven platform, with an amazing S-Tronic transmission. I expect it will be a tough call between the two.

 

[Hothonda]

If the price exceeds $120K they will be looking at them for a long time regardless......Acura could barely give NSX's away w/o big incentives from 1997 on & they were good cars!

No 458 buyer is going to be cross shopping an NSX IMO.

The new 991 GTS happened today (10/8/14) with deliveries before year end. Great wide body package starting @ $114.2K w/factory powerkit.

 

[fastaussie]

is the target the current 458 base or Speciale, or the upcoming 458 Twin Turbo?

the first two cars are absolutely phenomenal, the latter should be significantly more remarkable...

 

[robr]

is the target the current 458 base or Speciale, or the upcoming 458 Twin Turbo?

the first two cars are absolutely phenomenal, the latter should be significantly more remarkable...

"We have to achieve the type of acceleration that the customer is achieving with the Ferrari"........ that's all anybody knows. Could be the 458...... could be the LaFerrari....... but my guess would be he's talking about the base 458.

 

[N Spec]

Not surprising. Timing is interesting because it will coincide with production release of Audi's new R8 based on the Huracan platform. I expect the base V10 (non-plus) will probably be around 560hp, and the plus around 585hp. Chip it and unleash the full 605hp.

I'm assuming Honda is targeting the V10 and not the V8 if their target is the 458. If they can keep it under $160k and exceed the performance and fit/finish of the R8, then they could have a winner. R8 will have a proven platform, with an amazing S-Tronic transmission. I expect it will be a tough call between the two.

I honestly would rather have the Huracan if money was no object over the three choices and of course if the 458 was not a viable option. However, money/value is always an issue, so it would or should be up to power/refinement per dollar. The NSX is still going to be cheaper than these mentioned vehicles and I strongly believe the level refinement/finish will be high. I call $115K first year and bump ~$5K each new MY with small power upgrades over the years ala GTR.

 

[fastaussie]

from what I've driven and heard so far, I'd say the 458 is still the Daddy of the three cars mentioned. the Huracan is not what I was hoping it would be, but the Superleggera might well be. the current R8 is a truly fantastic car, and even the V8 is a great machine. anyone who's content driving a 290 horsepower NSX can't pretend to complain about a 430 horsepower Audi V8 not being strong enough. honestly, it's probably the best street car of them all. the new model R8 should be amazing, I'm eagerly awaiting it. if they sleek it out a bit more and get rid of that gaudy blade, it may jump to the top of my list.

unfortunately I'm just not feeling this new NSX at all, for a variety of reasons. as for attaining Ferrari acceleration, it may well have the normally aspirated 458 covered, but I don't think it'll handle the twin turbo-charged version. and the LaFerrari. well, I think we all know the answer to that one without even asking the question...

 

[Arshad]

If the price exceeds $120K they will be looking at them for a long time regardless......Acura could barely give NSX's away w/o big incentives from 1997 on & they were good cars!

No 458 buyer is going to be cross shopping an NSX IMO.

1) There was not enough of an improvement in the 97+'s to justify the price tag IMO. There were other good options on the table and Honda did not do enough. It was a breakthrough in 1991... and then they sat on their asses.
2) They're not targeting the 458 buyers .. they're targeting the R8 buyers. 458 is just thrown in as a performance benchmark to strive for. Anyone who thinks the new NSX will actually be as good a car as the 458 is delusional.

I honestly would rather have the Huracan if money was no object over the three choices and of course if the 458 was not a viable option. However, money/value is always an issue, so it would or should be up to power/refinement per dollar. The NSX is still going to be cheaper than these mentioned vehicles and I strongly believe the level refinement/finish will be high.

As you noted, money is ALWAYS an object in this price range, so Huracan and 458 are out. The real competitor here is the R8, and the bar is already very high... and will be even higher with the new 2016 R8 on the new platform and updated interior + electronics. I don't think they're going after the R8-V8... they must be targeting R8-V10 in terms of HP and performance and price. At least on some metrics they can then state that they're competitive with a 458. The reality is that the two are completely different classes of cars, just like the 458 and R8 are today.

As such I don't see this being a $120k car -- it'll be a $160k car. If it beats the new R8-V10 in all respects (performance AND interior/electronics), then I'm back on the buyers list.... but for now there's just too many question marks.

 

[JD Cross]

As you noted, money is ALWAYS an object in this price range

On this point I disagree.
Price is always an object when shopping for Civic and Corolla's but in the two seat mid-engine segment you are talking about a discretionary not a necessary purchase.
Performance, pride of ownership, and exclusivity are equally important.
Prestige of the marque is also a factor and Honda will struggle with this in North America, not so much in Europe, Asia and Australia.

If we listen to Ted's comments he is saying Honda will try to equal the performance of a 458 at the price point of an Audi R8.
He did not state the NSX is positioned to compete with the R8 so not sure why posters are comparing the NSX to an R8?
The comparison is an NSX with 458 performance at a significant discount to the 458 price.
How much discount?
About $100K or about the price of an R8.
The pressure will be on Volkswagen on this one.

I'm not surprised at a 6 month delay in the NSX launch?
They've had a fire in a test mule which for Honda and their corporate philosophy of reliability is a serious setback.
Look at the recent fire in the hybrid Porsche and it's effect.
There may be some unforeseen issues with the hybrid system, batteries, controls etc. at these high power levels.
As well the goalposts in this segment have been moving rapidly and Honda may have had to some work on higher power tuning on the gas engine and more power from the electric boost.

We shouldn't sell Honda short. Look at the NSX you own. It's the same company coming out with another one.

 

[blue_myriddn]

We shouldn't sell Honda short. Look at the NSX you own. It's the same company coming out with another one.

I disagree. It is not the same company that built the original NSX.

 

[JD Cross]

I disagree. It is not the same company that built the original NSX.

Do you mean not the same people or not the same Company?

 

[blue_myriddn]

Honda in the late 80s (heck the whole Japanese auto industry in the 80s) is very different than what it is now. They were full of ambition, a growing economy and an urge to prove to the world that they were a dominant player in the global market. It was their kickback following their crushing defeat in WWII. The Asset bubble pop, changed all of that and created a different fiscal world for Honda to operate in. Honda retained a bit of its 80s magic early on, but as the 90s moved forward the company changed and it was very clear to see it in their product line.

There is no comparing the Honda of today with the bright, youthful energy they had in the 1980s when the original NSX was created.

FYI - this old Jeremy Clarkson video does a great job of describing the rise of the Japanese auto industry for those who are curious: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nERG14j6dS8

 

[Arshad]

On this point I disagree.
Price is always an object when shopping for Civic and Corolla's but in the two seat mid-engine segment you are talking about a discretionary not a necessary purchase.

I think it's all relative. My point was that if money were no object, a sport car buyer would not be looking at an R8 or NSX.. they'd most likely be looking at an Aventador, 458, 650S... or if they were really rich, Pagani or Bugatti.

Maybe it's just me, but I'm looking at the NSX or R8 because I can't afford a new 458 or Huracan. Very different price ranges, very different cars. I think people are comparing against the R8 because quite frankly, that's the target market. Someone who can afford a 458 is not going to be looking at an NSX as an option IMO. On the other hand, someone who can afford an R8 will look at the NSX if it offers similar or better performance/features/quality/interior/cost of ownership, etc.

We shouldn't sell Honda short. Look at the NSX you own. It's the same company coming out with another one.

I LOVE the NSX I own but although the marque may be the same, I don't think it carries the same DNA as the original NSX. I still support Honda with my dollars (just bought a 2015 MDX Elite a few weeks ago) and I am absolutely going to wait and see what they come out with next year. In fact, it's a big reason why I didn't pick up a car this year even though I've been dying to add something to my garage...

 

[JD Cross]

I think it's all relative. My point was that if money were no object, a sport car buyer would not be looking at an R8 or NSX.. they'd most likely be looking at an Aventador, 458, 650S... or if they were really rich, Pagani or Bugatti.

I didn't say money was no object. I suggested money is only part of the equation. There are probably 458 buyers telling friends they really wanted a Bugatti but had to settle for a 458.
My point is that in this market segment all the buyers are wealthy. You have to be wealthy to put $150 K plus down for a mid-engine sports car that you'll drive for 5 k or less miles per year.
The NSX sounds like it will be priced in the Audi/Porsche range because there is a sufficiently large number of cars sold in that price range for Honda to sell enough NSX's to make it worthwhile.

 

[SUNLINE]

Lest us not forget that Honda is supplying the V-6 turbo motors for McLaren next year, so maybe they are even more into racing than they were in 1991! Don't sell Honda short, they want to turn the supercar ranks upside down again. I have owned an NSX, a F355 and currently own a 360 Spider and the NSX was a much better car. I will be selling my 360 when the new NSX comes out. You can drive the NSX every day, the Ferrari you really can't. Unless you want to dump a lot of money into maintenance and believe me they are very expensive to maintain. I do wish, however, that they used an outside design firm since the new design is nice, but far from breathtaking. I would have to say, IMO, that all the new mid engine supercars are better looking. BUT you can't beat Japanese reliability. Both German and Italian cars see the shop MUCH more.

 

[JD Cross]

Honda in the late 80s (heck the whole Japanese auto industry in the 80s) is very different than what it is now. They were full of ambition, a growing economy and an urge to prove to the world that they were a dominant player in the global market. There is no comparing the Honda of today with the bright, youthful energy they had in the 1980s when the original NSX was created.

The whole world's auto industry is different today than it was in the 80's, and thank goodness for that.
We've seen bankruptcy's, renewals and generally a much healthier industry than before.
I don't think there's any question Honda lost it's way after Mr. Honda passed on and it sat in the doldrums for many years.
However the Honda trademark's of reliability, build quality, and value for money did not get diluted during that time and that suggests the core principles remain unchanged which is a good thing.

As far as comparisons with Honda of the 80's I'd say we have a more vibrant and creative group in place today.

First consider HondaJet
What other auto company has taken the step to build executive jets?
This was a move by bright, youthful, risk taking managers and not for the faint of heart.
Undoubtedly the jet program siphoned capital away from the auto and motorcycle divisions and likely held back development.
Today however the jets are flying, selling and bringing in income.

I think we're witnessing the major repositioning of Honda auto.
Back in Formula 1 with McLaren.
Launch of a new high tech NSX.

These aren't the management moves of a risk averse staid company at all.

 

[N Spec]

The whole world's auto industry is different today than it was in the 80's, and thank goodness for that.
We've seen bankruptcy's, renewals and generally a much healthier industry than before.
I don't think there's any question Honda lost it's way after Mr. Honda passed on and it sat in the doldrums for many years.
However the Honda trademark's of reliability, build quality, and value for money did not get diluted during that time and that suggests the core principles remain unchanged which is a good thing.

As far as comparisons with Honda of the 80's I'd say we have a more vibrant and creative group in place today.

First consider HondaJet
What other auto company has taken the step to build executive jets?
This was a move by bright, youthful, risk taking managers and not for the faint of heart.
Undoubtedly the jet program siphoned capital away from the auto and motorcycle divisions and likely held back development.
Today however the jets are flying, selling and bringing in income.

I think we're witnessing the major repositioning of Honda auto.
Back in Formula 1 with McLaren.
Launch of a new high tech NSX.

These aren't the management moves of a risk averse staid company at all.

Agreed. I know this is essentially a Honda Forum, but people act like Honda is the only one that wavered in the last 30 years. Nissan was on the verge of bankruptcy in the mid 90s and they've never been the same since. Toyota and every single other Japanese manufacturer ceased making sports cars back in 96-97. Mazda and Mitsubishi are barely hanging on these days. It's only recently, that Japan has seem to see a revitalization in the sports car market. Nissan still needs to revive the Silvia lineup and Toyota with the Supra and MR2.

 

[fastaussie]

N Spec, you don't consider the 350z and 370z, G Coupes from Nissan/Infiniti to be sports cars? not forgetting the GTR of course. the RX8, or the Lexus IS series, ISF, RCF and your personal favourite, the LFA to be sports cars either?

 

[N Spec]

N Spec, you don't consider the 350z and 370z, G Coupes from Nissan/Infiniti to be sports cars? not forgetting the GTR of course. the RX8, or the Lexus IS series, ISF, RCF and your personal favourite, the LFA to be sports cars either?

I am/was a fan of the fallen Z32 300ZX. Thanks to modern mandates or whatever intangible force that occurred during the 2000s, cars like the 350Z perverted the idea of a sports car IMO. The 370Z is a much better step, but I still prefer the Z32 300ZX's "exotic" aspiration. The G/Q coupes are more grand tourers than sports cars. I do like them for what they are though, but none of them really captured my eye like the 300ZX or S13-S15 Silvia did. Perhaps because those 90s cars had low slung hoods versus the bloated design that plagues many of today's "sports" cars. Yet, the Corvette, new Miata, Ferraris, Lambos and various other sports cars still find some way to maintain the status quo.

Also, the saloon Rx8's NA engine made a wonderful sound to my ears (and it was very fun to drive), but the Civic SI from the same era made more power (or put more power to the wheels) with much higher reliability and still just as fun to drive even if it is FF. I hear a true Rx7 successor is in the works. This could be exciting, considering Mazda's vitality seems to be stronger these days with the new Miata's direction. Obviously, if you can't tell by now, I do not consider saloons or beefed up sedans to be true sports cars, but then again I've never been much of a purist :wink: I just know that having two doors, a shorter wheelbase, or powerful engine simply does not classify a car as a sports car.