Is War Worth it!?

[Electro]

I dont know about you guys but I'm just not convinced that war with Iraq is neccessary.

I feel that it will only cause problems for us here in the US and all over the world.

I've been reading quite a bit about how other people in this country feel and around the world. They feel the same way. How could there be such a massive amount of people (celebrities and the general public alike) that are against war and the US gov't not listen?!

I think the US is already deemed the bully-state by millions of people that dont even know what its like to come here or have never even met more than one or two Americans at the most.

I think something should be done to work out the issues that are going on now in the international community... but WTF! The whole redneck mentality WILL NOT WORK! It didnt work in the 60's and its not going to work now. This is a new type of fight. Its a fight for clearing the image of our nation. Not imposing factions and sanctions on "rogue" nations. That does nothing for the well-being of the people of the world and certainly not for us here in the states.

(cont below)

[This message has been edited by Electro (edited 12 January 2003).]

 

[Electro]

Do we still live in a democracy? Or have we ever had one? Thankfully I'm just about to turn 25 so there's no possibility for me to be drafted. But still I dont want there to be another draft. I dont want a replay of Veitnam! We've done enough damage to Afghanistan's people... Why should we start with the people of Iraq?? What's next? North Korea!?

Why would there be such a public out-cry of thousands of people coming together to protest the pre-emptive strike against Iraq if there wasn't a real problem?

If Sadam has direct ties to terrorist organizations, SHOW US THE INFO! Obviously, not matter what the weapons inspectors find, Bush will still go to war with Iraq... for the "regeime change"... kind of funny how all this works out ..... bush gets millions from the oil tycoons for campaign contributions and he's put in office just by the skin of his teeth...

(cont below)

[This message has been edited by Electro (edited 12 January 2003).]

 

[Electro]

Then what does he do? He vows to take control of one of the biggest producers of oil in the entire world... 2+2=4! Of course he uses the "threat of terrorism" as fuel to his fire... what a perfect setup.

I agree that the US has to be much more careful in dealing with these terrorist issues... but what would makes the US forces any different than the terrorists if we were to kill innocent people (like we already have been doing in the middle east for over 12 years anyways) Its not like Osama Bin Laden is actually standing out in the desert somewhere just waiting to get blasted by a missle... same thing for Sadam... WTF is the point!??!?!?!?

Check out this URL - It offers some VERY good points:

http://www.shinybluegrasshopper.com/nowar/

(cont below)

[This message has been edited by Electro (edited 12 January 2003).]

 

[Electro]

Read this news article "Rumsfeld: No World War III in Iraq" :

http://www.cnn.com/2002/US/11/15/rumsfeld.iraq/index.html

It's obvious that we're going to war with Iraq no matter what. And its to replace Sadam.... *shakes head...*

The only way the public has a "voice" is to vote... and the electorial process doesnt even allow us to choose who goes into office! So where's the democracy in that?! If they dont listen to the protests, what *are* they listening to?? They're own motives!

Sorry just had to vent a little...

Feel free to disagree with me... I'm just very fed up with what I've been seeing on TV and reading everywhere lately.

(LUD It was a pain in the ass to have to break up my post like this.. why cant I post a long message??)

-Electro

[This message has been edited by Electro (edited 12 January 2003).]

 

[Lud]

Originally posted by Electro:
(LUD It was a pain in the ass to have to break up my post like this.. why cant I post a long message??)

Electro - See http://www.nsxprime.com/ubb/Forum7/HTML/000166.html and let me know if you can figure it out. I am not able to duplicate the problem, but others have experienced it as well. Since you're a computer guy hopefully you can..?

 

[Number 6]

you know, you're right! i don't know why i didn't see it sooner! i'd feel so much better knowing saddam was able to keep producing nuclear, chemical and biological weapons without a peep from us. the world would be so much safer. i mean, after all, the US is the great satan and all. the fact that we are the largest suorce of foreign aid for the entire world is just a smoke screen. we really want to enslave the entire world. that's why our borders are so secure. and those freedom fighters who liberated 4 of our airplanes and bravely flew them into the evil world trade center, the symbol of american hegemony and capitalism, why they had to do what they did to show us how evil we are!

thank you for enlightening me. i feel so much better knowing that a 25 year-old, wise beyond his age, has shown me the true path and the true evil nature of america.

------------------
Kaye & Trish
2003 MDX
NSXCA #108
-My other car is a 767-

 

[john576]

For those that oppose elimination of demented scumbags with great destructive powers ie. Saddam and his patheticly brainwashed followers, I suggest you think long and hard about the future of your children and country.

 

[Tom Larkins]

Originally posted by Electro:


I've been reading quite a bit about how other people in this country feel and around the world. They feel the same way. How could there be such a massive amount of people (celebrities and the general public alike) that are against war and the US gov't not listen?!

That makes me feel better knowing that celebrities are in the majority. They cannot even run their own life and ask us to joint them in fantisy land. As for the general public, I wasn't aware that a huge ground swell of people were against it.



I think something should be done to work out the issues that are going on now in the international community... but WTF! The whole redneck mentality WILL NOT WORK! It didnt work in the 60's and its not going to work now.



Rednecks in the 60's, I was there to watch my brother get spat upon by a bunch of hippies upon his return from Vietman. No we shouldn't have been their b/c the leaders didn't have any direction, but thats a whole different story. The only people I saw doing that sort of thing to undermine America is the Hollywood crowd and the same bunch of fools that thought we should just love our enemies, and then will all get along. Did work then and it won't now!!


This is a new type of fight. Its a fight for clearing the image of our nation. Not imposing factions and sanctions on "rogue" nations. That does nothing for the well-being of the people of the world and certainly not for us here in the states.

(cont below)

[This message has been edited by Electro (edited 12 January 2003).]

Sorry, that all went out the window on 9/11. If you havn't noticed, entire countries want nothing more to eliminate our way of life, maybe you would feel different if this were closer to your home. I for one don't want to go to a shopping mall or other public place with my 5 & 8 year old and have that type of event happen again. Frankly, "Image" or what ever you want to call it or whom ever sells this type of crap under that banner is foolish. Image never protects freedom, as strong nation does, one that protects itself and the people.

 

[Electro]

If Saddam is producing nuclear weapons, why haven't the inspectors found anything? I realize that it may be possible for Iraq to move materials around before the inspectors got there... But don't you think they whould have found *something* by now?

My point is, is that say the US was not the most powerful nation in the world. (bear with me for a moment, I know its hard not to) and there was this huge power that loomed above us and they decided they didn't like how we run things, so they're just going to come in and replace the whole government and impose they're style of government on our country. Would that seem right to you?

Just because we're the one's with the bloody nose doesn't mean we can weild our shiny axe Indiscriminately.

Are the people of Iraq responsible for producing nuclear or biological weapons? Certainly not.

(cont. below)

[This message has been edited by Electro (edited 12 January 2003).]

 

[Electro]

With ultimate power, comes ultimate responsibility. I do not feel that the US is ultimately responsible. I do however feel better than if that power belonged to anyone else -why probably because I'm an American...

But that doesnt mean we just can go around saying we're going to snuff out all the "bad" guys... that will only create more problems.

"If you havn't noticed, entire countries want nothing more to eliminate our way of life, maybe you would feel different if this were closer to your home."

I believe it was close enough for me thanks. And the whole fact that entire countries are against us just because they cant live the lives we do, is insane! Why should someone resent us SO much?? What is it that we're doing wrong that makes us the "bad guys" in their eyes?? It's obviously something right? No one has figured that one out as far as I'm concerned.

(cont below)

 

[Electro]

I realize that something has to be done to combat these types of threats. I'm not some tree hugging hippie thats totally against war. There just has to be reason for it... Not "just because". The whole, "you're either with us or against us" mentality is one of the most stubborn approaches I've ever heard!

Like I said this is not Veitnam. This is not World War II. This is a war of technology and intelligence. Not from bullheadish, knee-jerk desicisions to wipe entire regiemes clean. I guess once we're done, N. Korea, Iraq and Iran will all be fun loving, peaceful, democratic nations full of flowers and honey bees right?

I know that alot of you that are much older and have seen much more than myself will probably feel differently. That's ok. But no matter what, I will still feel like there is a solution to every problem before there being any violence. 9/11 never should have happened. Ever wonder why 9/11 happened in the first place? There are reasons for everything. We shouldn't just retaliate blindly without getting the facts. Of course the media will only tell the public so much...the vicious circle goes round and round...

-Electro

[This message has been edited by Electro (edited 12 January 2003).]

 

[Darkcyd]

I for one, wholeheartedly agree with Electro. There isn't a really strong compelling reason that we are going to war with Iraq. And no, I don't buy into all the BS rhetoric that is coming from the White House. Many people can't seem to distinguish what we should be concerned about here. Post 9/11 we started the war on terrorism. Nobody could be against that. In fact, we had worldwide support at that time. But now that Bush has decided to expand the war front beyond the war on terrorism, he has alienated a sizable number of nations. I think that says a good deal about the validity of his claim that action is necessary and the wisdom of that move.

I think very often, we Americans are far too concerned about ourselves and do not take into consideration a global viewpoint on what is going on in the world. Thus we have the 'Redneck' thing going on. I think the last election spoke volumes in which states supported which candidate. All of the states with very diverse populations voted with Gore and the heartland went with Bush.

 

[Darkcyd]

Originally posted by Number 6:
you know, you're right! i don't know why i didn't see it sooner! i'd feel so much better knowing saddam was able to keep producing nuclear, chemical and biological weapons without a peep from us. the world would be so much safer. i mean, after all, the US is the great satan and all. the fact that we are the largest suorce of foreign aid for the entire world is just a smoke screen. we really want to enslave the entire world. that's why our borders are so secure. and those freedom fighters who liberated 4 of our airplanes and bravely flew them into the evil world trade center, the symbol of american hegemony and capitalism, why they had to do what they did to show us how evil we are!

thank you for enlightening me. i feel so much better knowing that a 25 year-old, wise beyond his age, has shown me the true path and the true evil nature of america.

That last line was absolutely unnecessary. What does his age have to do with the validity of his points and arguments? I'm sorry, but in this discussion, age gives you zero intellectual high ground. Maybe if we were discussing what it feels like to be married, or what's the best way to potty-train our kids, then maybe you could say that your age gives you a more knowledgeable outlook on the topic. But here, it's all about how much you know of the history of other countries in addition to the history of our own country, and ultimately an understanding of international politics and policy studies.

Have you ever stopped to think about how the 'evil satan US' image came to be in the first place? Think long and hard about what kind of actions it would take to cause someone to call us that, and how many people and countries must feel that way in order to perpetuate it.

I don't think very many people in the world despise our way of life. Most would want a chance to live the way we do. What they despise is the way the US government (not the people) tries to manipulate the rest of the world, and as the world's last remaining superpower, keeps itself seemingly beyond reproach and above the law.

 

[Darkcyd]

Originally posted by john576:
For those that oppose elimination of demented scumbags with great destructive powers ie. Saddam and his patheticly brainwashed followers, I suggest you think long and hard about the future of your children and country.

That's like the teapot calling the kettle black. When's the last time you went and got your news source from other than a US publication or network? I'd be careful if I were to call anyone else brainwashed. There is so much news that we never hear about here, and so many details and sides to a story that we often never see. You will find that reading foreign sources will often provide a much more accurate and complete picture for your views.

 

[Electro]

Darkcyd, very well put indeed.

-Electro

 

[O-Ace]

Electro and Darkcyd have already made some very good points. There really is no compelling reason to go to war with Iraq.

 

[Sig]

Number6-
I am still laughing from your post. Though funny, you manage to make some very important points as well.

DarkSide-
What makes foreign sources of news more accurate?
Even in the U.S., there is/has been an everpresent left bias in mainstream media. The U.S. media would never voluntarily lend unnecessary support to those evil Republican hawks. That said, much of celebrity land aka Hollywood/LA, is far more liberal than the already liberal media. So perhaps the ultra liberal European point of view better reflects the average Hollywood point of view.

The bias in American press feigns in comparison to the bias in international press. Not sure how a more sweeping bias can result in more accuracy? What foreign press generally does is spend 90% of their time reporting stories that are merely criticism masked as an article. That said, countries like Australia and a few others are exceptions. I read news sources from every corner of the planet every day, and find the MO's of foreign news sources to be even more evident than their American counterparts. What news sources do you suggest as it is quite possible I am missing some credible publications?

 

[Electro]

Well since you chose to comment solely on the media issue, I guess we can talk about that and pretend all the other stuff is just words in the wind.

Do you honestly think that the government has no final say-so in what goes to press? There is not freedom of press. We'd like to think there is. It's not as liberal as you might think. The US Gov't is not going to waste their time in censoring liberal babblings of say a news paper from LA that deals with nothing more than celebrity gossip about who's gay today and who's divorcing who... They have "national security" issues to deal with in other media outlets. How hard would it be to keep an eye on all the major news companies that currently exist? I think a gov't team of about 12 people could do that.

What do you think the FCC does anyways?

How hard would it be for a gov't organization such as the FCC to release a counter arguementitive morsel of info to just about every piece of information that goes thru the hands of these media companies?

There are countless instances that deal with the news not reporting the whole truth... we can argue about that one forever.

(cont below) uhg

[This message has been edited by Electro (edited 12 January 2003).]

 

[Electro]

And what points did Number 6 make in 12 lines of text that could possibly address what points I've brought up????

This is not a topic where personal attacks can be sufficient in dealing w/ the questions I've posed.

-Electro

 

[Sig]

If the U.S. is not a democracy, the good news is that Canada has the most liberal immigration laws in the world. You could probably get over there fairly easily, their leadership is left leaning democracy

Just kidding.

There is some funny suppositions being made in this thread. For one, the rhetorical question about why have the inspectors not found anything yet is somewhat uninformed if there is to be a historical view of weapons inspections not just in Iraq, but worldwide.

Your honor, I enter into evidence the billiant UN captain, Hans Blix. Hansy has been at the inspection game for about 20 years. Lets review his record. He has a 100% success rate. That is if you consider not finding one illegal weapon ever in any place a success. During the 90's Hans gave North Korea a "Clean Bill of Health". Not long after the U.S. and others helped reveal that in fact North Korea had a full-fledged Nuclear proliferation program. Ahhhh, good old North Korea.

In the 90's series of Iraq inspections, anytime they found incriminating evidence... Iraqis soldiers would surround the counvoy any forcibly take back aforementioned documents. As far as weaponry, it was moved on a regular basis at night. The current inspections are less invasive than the public is lead to believe. There is a large list of locations that the UN team will not go. For example, the entire Republican Guard facilities. Sadaam could store an entire chemical warhead arsenal in the elite army division's grounds and we would never know.

DarkSide-
If we are too concerned about ourselves as a country, I am curious what nations you consider to be better world citizens?

Someone mentioned that we had worldwide support for activities in Afghanistan. We did not have general support until other nations began to see the success we were having. Until then most everyone else only supplied "humanitarian" assistance. Again there are a few exceptions.

The idea that the Iraq thing is motivated by oil is an interesting idea. The current state of oil contracts on Iraq land have Russia, France, and Germany in the best position to profit from oil. We are not on that list and additionally do you see the coincedence that those three nations are the most outspoken against action in Iraq?

DarkSide-
If you can't see that the leadership of almost every Middle East country has brainwashed the large majority of the people, look at Sadaam's success. He got 100% of the vote. Man he sure is popular, or is it that he murders all who voice decent. A long-time friend of mine who was forced into asylum here in the U.S. many years ago witnessed his entire town being murdered as a result of electing a local leader who didn't fully support Sadaam.
I invite you to read the Middle East media as you mentioned previously for hints of brainwashing. There are three sources of Middle East media I read each week, one from a supposed ally. Let me tell you, they all read like fantastical tabloids. Well, I did learn some valuable things like that you, me, and everyone else in the country are direct decendants of Satan.

 

[Sig]

Electro-

I was not referring to the statment which mentioned your age.

One thing that is interesting about the press is this:
We obviously have different points of view. You feel that the U.S. press is just putting out pro-war propaganda. (I simplified your view, forgive me if this is incorrect)
I feel that our media has a liberal, touchy feely, politically correct bias. If we each think that our press is too far supporting opposing views, than perhaps it is more middle of the road than either of give it credit for.

 

[Sig]

The only real answer to the echoing rhetorical question of why are we hated by so many countries.....

It's lonely at the top. This reasoning is human nature. It is human nature in the United States and it is human nature in Iraq. Why do the majority of sports fans root for the underdog, only because that team is the underdog. Same reason I was rooting for Atlanta yesterday. Whew, I hate'dem Eagles! For that matter, I also was pulling for the Jets today. Why do other nations blame their troubles on America, because it motivates their people and provides a scapegoat for their pain.

 

[Electro]

Sig,

I totally agree with you on many of your points... at the same time like I said, just b/c we're at the top doesnt mean we deserve to be

lol just kidding...

what I mean is that it takes an exorbitant amount of control and responsibility to "do the right thing" when you have the most powerful military in the world.

I think part of the big problem is that the world sees the US as kind of a hypocracy in a way... 50 years ago we were dropping nuclear bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki, and spraying biological agent orange all over veitnam to supposedly "defoliate the trees so we could see the enemy" whaat? Like we didnt know that the enemy was already underground? You should see the agent orange wards that have all the deformed children in there... still born... and born without legs or arms...

(cont below)

 

[Electro]

We certainly haven't taken responsibily for those actions...and probably never will.

Regarding the press, of course all media agencies can't report the same stories... there is exclusivity when it comes to who reports what...

Unfortunately there are way too many grey areas to be argued about...

The pro-war propaganda is there, and the interviews you see from Donald Rumsfeld for example are full of all sorts of implications... who tells him what he can or cant say?

-Electro

 

[true]

If you haven't already, go see Bowling For Columbine. (movie) This doesn't really have a whole lot to do with war in Iraq or N. Korea, but I think everyone should see it...