Is there a business case for dropping engine/gearbox for maint versus leaving in?

[brettowen]

Hey primers! I've got a '91 with 93K miles that's coming up due for a TB/WP in the next year or so. I'm pretty sure I'm driving on the original clutch (bought the car with 73K miles in 2010) so I expect it to go at any time. My engine mounts are pretty much shot as well so they need to be replaced. So my question is: Would it be worth it in terms of saving labor costs to just go ahead and drop the engine/gearbox and doing this maintenance (along with a few other things since the engine will be out) at once? If so, does anyone have a rough idea how much time in labor I would be saving?

The items that would be addressed are:

TB/WP
Clutch
Engine mounts
Valve adjustment
LMA
Cam plugs
Spool valve filter
VTEC solenoid
Rear main seal

I'm sure I'm missing something(s). I don't need to replace coolant hoses as they were done a couple years ago.

Bottom line: I'm trying to determine if there is a real cost savings by dropping the engine and doing this work all at once instead of piecemeal over the next 2-3 years.

Your feedback is appreciated!

 

[SR-71]

Dropping the engine would just be extra work and extra money. Drop the tranny for the clutch and rear main. The mounts are easy and everything else you can do with the engine in the car.

 

[drew]

TB/WP, can be done in car but is VERY difficult. Some techs will only do it out of the vehicle because of liability.

Clutch - you might have another 100K mile on it.

Engine mounts: no savings.

Valve adjustment: I don't recommend. Never needed adjustment in 150K miles, lots of other folks agree.

LMA: ?? why?

Cam plugs: only if they are leaking. And then you can do your valve adjustment at the same time.

Spool valve filter: no savings.

VTEC solenoid: no savings.

Rear main seal: if leaking then replace. Change out your clutch discs while you are at it.

KAz does out vehicle maintenance so he can do everything and usually his customers are not concerned about cost.

 

[Jinks]

If you drop the motor, I would seriously advise you to change the head gaskets. There are a couple of early model cars behind mine at DA with blown unboosted motors that popped at less than 150k miles.

 

[runnin9z]

For that engine work it would be much easier to drop the engine. Ask me how i know!!

 

[liftnot]

Doing it right should be your first concern not cost saving as parts cost are fairly standard. Looking for the right shop should be your 1st move. at 93k, your motor mounts should not be shots unless it has been driven so hard and careless. You also have the option to fill it with polyurethane and save a few bucks there to see how it works for you. its something you can change later without much hassle. LMA will quite down the engine noise and its quite noticeable. AM HG is a good idea for long term peace of mind. There also has been one case down here of NA with blown HG not tracked. We were told to use oem head bolts so it can be reached w/o much problem to re-tork but not with ARP studs, its a hugh hassle as it can not be reached in car.

To drop the engine is much easier for the shop for accessibility and look at things straight on not feeling it way down below. Don't make it hard for them to save $.
Quite often there will be parts needed unseen. In our case, the insulator of the crank sensor was halfway melted due to heat but was still working fine. Lucky they are still in stock. This oem part was not cheap but necessary. Find a NSX competent shop that is familiar with the maintenance and they can advise the best. We went with the ATI damper and 2lbs rotational wt. saved was noticeable as well.

 

[dwe8922]

I am planning on dropping the engine of my '91. I'm doing short gears, 4.23, LWF, TB/WP, LMA's, cam plugs, headers, exhaust, and supercharger. My understanding from talking to a few people is that it's easier to drop the engine at that point, and neccessary to do the LMA's. I have a lift in my shop, and have done this kind of work on other cars (and enjoy doing it), so I'm doing it myself.

I'm trying to decide what kind of cart to make; the clarion builds video shows a steel cart with different sized boards....

David

 

[brettowen]

Dropping the engine would just be extra work and extra money. Drop the tranny for the clutch and rear main. The mounts are easy and everything else you can do with the engine in the car.

Thanks. Any idea how much more work it is to drop the engine versus just dropping the gearbox?

 

[brettowen]

TB/WP, can be done in car but is VERY difficult. Some techs will only do it out of the vehicle because of liability.

Clutch - you might have another 100K mile on it.

Engine mounts: no savings.

Valve adjustment: I don't recommend. Never needed adjustment in 150K miles, lots of other folks agree.

LMA: ?? why?

Cam plugs: only if they are leaking. And then you can do your valve adjustment at the same time.

Spool valve filter: no savings.

VTEC solenoid: no savings.

Rear main seal: if leaking then replace. Change out your clutch discs while you are at it.

KAz does out vehicle maintenance so he can do everything and usually his customers are not concerned about cost.

Thanks for your response, Drew. I'm pretty sure my clutch is getting near end of life. I figured if I had the engine out of the car it would just make good sense to get the valves adjusted and replacing the LMA would be more a preventive measure...again since the engine would be out of the car. Cam plugs...same deal.

 

[brettowen]

For that engine work it would be much easier to drop the engine. Ask me how i know!!

Thanks. Some of it is going to be required maintenance (TB/WP) and much of the other would be "let's just do this since the engine is out of the car anyway" kind of stuff. Again...just trying to justify the cost of dropping the whole assembly.

 

[brettowen]

If you drop the motor, I would seriously advise you to change the head gaskets. There are a couple of early model cars behind mine at DA with blown unboosted motors that popped at less than 150k miles.

Thanks, Jinks. This is something that I will seriously consider should I drop the entire assembly.

 

[brettowen]

Doing it right should be your first concern not cost saving as parts cost are fairly standard. Looking for the right shop should be your 1st move. at 93k, your motor mounts should not be shots unless it has been driven so hard and careless. You also have the option to fill it with polyurethane and save a few bucks there to see how it works for you. its something you can change later without much hassle. LMA will quite down the engine noise and its quite noticeable. AM HG is a good idea for long term peace of mind. There also has been one case down here of NA with blown HG not tracked. We were told to use oem head bolts so it can be reached w/o much problem to re-tork but not with ARP studs, its a hugh hassle as it can not be reached in car.

To drop the engine is much easier for the shop for accessibility and look at things straight on not feeling it way down below. Don't make it hard for them to save $.
Quite often there will be parts needed unseen. In our case, the insulator of the crank sensor was halfway melted due to heat but was still working fine. Lucky they are still in stock. This oem part was not cheap but necessary. Find a NSX competent shop that is familiar with the maintenance and they can advise the best. We went with the ATI damper and 2lbs rotational wt. saved was noticeable as well.

Appreciate the response. I have a great shop that takes care of me here in San Antonio. Just about all of us down here use Scott at HNA...he's awesome and very competent. So...I know two of my mounts have collapsed. I've already purchased a new OEM set. Also have a new OEM clutch sitting in a box. If dropping the engine, it just made made sense to me to replace the LMAs (would you agree?) as well as adjust the valves as the rear bank is so tough to get to with the engine in the car. As far as the head gasket goes, I'm considering it. I know my cam position sensor's insulation is gone as I'm no longer removing the little black tadpole-like globules from my garage floor. Lol.

 

[brettowen]

I am planning on dropping the engine of my '91. I'm doing short gears, 4.23, LWF, TB/WP, LMA's, cam plugs, headers, exhaust, and supercharger. My understanding from talking to a few people is that it's easier to drop the engine at that point, and neccessary to do the LMA's. I have a lift in my shop, and have done this kind of work on other cars (and enjoy doing it), so I'm doing it myself.

I'm trying to decide what kind of cart to make; the clarion builds video shows a steel cart with different sized boards....

David

David, thanks. Unfortunately I do not have access to a lift. However, I do trust Scott implicitly to work on my car and know that he is always looking out for my best interest. Good luck with your project!

Brett

 

[SR-71]

Thanks. Any idea how much more work it is to drop the engine versus just dropping the gearbox?

If you drop just the tray its only a couple connectors to disconnect. If you drop the engine and tranny assembly your either undoing the harness at the ecu and dropping it with the assembly or your unplugging everything then dropping it. Dropping the tranny is simple. It maybe a little more cramped on the tbelt side but it's not that bad. It would be a lot more labour when dropping both then splitting them when it's out. Keep it simple

 

[Mac Attack]

If you're set on the person doing the maintenance, then I would just ask that person what they recommend doing.

I've done both personally on my nsx. Unless you need to change coolant hoses or do a coolant flush, it is quite a bit more labor to drop the engine.

 

[goldNSX]

If you're set on the person doing the maintenance, then I would just ask that person what they recommend doing.

^^^
THIS because your tech has to do the work. Listen to people who have done it before: for the work listed above I'd take the engine out. For the TB/WP only I'd might risk it to do it without dropping the engine. At that mileage I'd do LMA, cam seals and plugs too. Much easier with the engine out. With the engine in the car I've heard several horror stories...too long to list here...but plenty of them.

 

[brettowen]

Thanks. My tech has done just about everything on an NSX except removing/dropping the engine. That is why I am asking.

 

[sca037]

Having done both a few times, I vote remove the engine as well......

 

[goldNSX]

Thanks. My tech has done just about everything on an NSX except removing/dropping the engine. That is why I am asking.

Here we go...
Doing it the first time he'll face 5 hours OUT and 8 hours IN. A small fraction of those hours will be saved while doing the work on the engine being OUT. What can't be measured exactly is the reduced risk of a fault compared to the engine left IN.

 

[brettowen]

Here we go...
Doing it the first time he'll face 5 hours OUT and 8 hours IN. A small fraction of those hours will be saved while doing the work on the engine being OUT. What can't be measured exactly is the reduced risk of a fault compared to the engine left IN.

Thanks again. This certainly helps in my decision. I've heard Autowave (Huntington Beach?) drops the engine almost by default. I imagine they're pretty good at it. Lol.

 

[goldNSX]

One note: some people here locally regard their bills for TB, clutch or whatever bigger work as expensive. I've seen some bills and knew that the tech worked longer than the customer was actually quoted. You might ask your preferred mechanic what he actually quotes you. Doing it the first time he can't quote you his 'learning hours' IMO but some techs sometimes try to...But someone doing it the first time might have longer and when you have fixed the amount in advance he might get frustrated working so much longer for free.

 

[Larry Bastanza]

...But someone doing it the first time might have longer and when you have fixed the amount in advance he might get frustrated working so much longer for free.

I have seen so many NSX's with missing hardware. This is why, for many techs working on "book time", they only get paid based on the book time, when the first time it may take twice as long. When doing a timing belt without pulling the engine, I have one bolt I call the "45 minute bolt", the rearmost upper timing cover bolt, on 1995 up with OBDII and the additional 02 sensors, and the bracket for them, it is worse. After doing this too many times to count, I have gotten it down to about 2 minutes to remove that, but as a first timer, it will take alot of time.

My $.02

Regards,
LarryB