Just put on a set of slotted rotors from Dali along with a set of Carbotech Bobcat pads. Very nice upgrade for the street IMO. Very good initial bite and a noticeable improvement in stopping power over the stocks. The pads are also very quiet, no noise at all. Very happy with the upgrade.
Impressions: slotted rotors/carbotech pads
- Thread starter DaveJP
- Start date
you know, this has been long debated to death in Supra mailing list,
From Supra tt owner experience.. Everyone "upgraded" their brake system, rotors/pads or complete brake systems upgrade, claimed they noticed instant difference before and after..
But in reality, both NSX and Supra tt came with some of the best brake setup out of factory, very hard to do any improvement (in terms of shorten the brake distance).
eg. stoptech (or brembo) did this brake comparsion,
supra tt stock vs. brembo 13.25" vs. stoptech 14" - from 75 mph or 90 mph to complete stop.. it turned out that they are all within 1/2 feet of each other.
Supra tt = 3550 lbs .. with stock 12.6" 4 piston brake.
The ONLY time when 14" & 13.25" brake outshine stock is after 25+ hard brake repeatily.. (stock brake tend to over heat - hence fade
And then, Supra tt owners found out that if you add a vent duct to stock caliper, it will take care of the fade problem.
I "believe" NSX and Supra already came with some of the best brake setup there is, very hard to improve the braking distance.. you might achieve it by swapping sticker tires, but rotor and pads alone, i would be very interested to see the hard data..
-jjc.
From Supra tt owner experience.. Everyone "upgraded" their brake system, rotors/pads or complete brake systems upgrade, claimed they noticed instant difference before and after..
But in reality, both NSX and Supra tt came with some of the best brake setup out of factory, very hard to do any improvement (in terms of shorten the brake distance).
eg. stoptech (or brembo) did this brake comparsion,
supra tt stock vs. brembo 13.25" vs. stoptech 14" - from 75 mph or 90 mph to complete stop.. it turned out that they are all within 1/2 feet of each other.
Supra tt = 3550 lbs .. with stock 12.6" 4 piston brake.
The ONLY time when 14" & 13.25" brake outshine stock is after 25+ hard brake repeatily.. (stock brake tend to over heat - hence fade
And then, Supra tt owners found out that if you add a vent duct to stock caliper, it will take care of the fade problem.
I "believe" NSX and Supra already came with some of the best brake setup there is, very hard to improve the braking distance.. you might achieve it by swapping sticker tires, but rotor and pads alone, i would be very interested to see the hard data..
-jjc.
If you have kept up with many other posts on brakes, you know I am a proponent of the stock brakes. BUT, having said that, I do believe that pads make a big difference in ability, primarily due to increased friction. Can pads shorten your stopping distances? Not much. Can they shorten the time it takes to get from speed X to speed Y, where Y is not equal to zero, yes.
The general argument is that all brakes can lock up the tires if they are working properly. The point I make is how quickly the lock up takes place and how easy is it to modulate that impending lockup. I (will get flamed for this) like pads that have a high initial bite. They give me much more confidence in my ability to stop the car in both normal and emergency situations. There have been several times with my stock pads that I have to apply even more pressure than "what I think is enough" after driving the car(s) for three years to get it to stop. I really like the stock pads for street driving, but will be trying the Bobcats soon for this very reason. Just a little bit more grip.
BTW, the Stoptech test mentioned above only referenced calipers, not brake pad material. Again, not likely to do much, but I can tell a difference on the track, and on the street. Sort of like what headers do for torque and HP. JMHO
The general argument is that all brakes can lock up the tires if they are working properly. The point I make is how quickly the lock up takes place and how easy is it to modulate that impending lockup. I (will get flamed for this) like pads that have a high initial bite. They give me much more confidence in my ability to stop the car in both normal and emergency situations. There have been several times with my stock pads that I have to apply even more pressure than "what I think is enough" after driving the car(s) for three years to get it to stop. I really like the stock pads for street driving, but will be trying the Bobcats soon for this very reason. Just a little bit more grip.
BTW, the Stoptech test mentioned above only referenced calipers, not brake pad material. Again, not likely to do much, but I can tell a difference on the track, and on the street. Sort of like what headers do for torque and HP. JMHO
So then if you supercharge or turbo charge the car, there is no real reason to upgrade your brakes. Maybe just the pads and you would be fine?
Or, Do you need stronger brakes for the increase speed/HP?
Or, Do you need stronger brakes for the increase speed/HP?
Mark Hicks (nsxnut) is running a Novi1000 BBSC with stock brakes, and he and his wife are both VERY fast. No problems with stock brakes.
Don Nowak (Donymo) ran stock brakes with his BEGI TT, and never had problems at the track. His present car has the CTSC and AP Racing front calipers. but it came that way.
To each his own.
Don Nowak (Donymo) ran stock brakes with his BEGI TT, and never had problems at the track. His present car has the CTSC and AP Racing front calipers. but it came that way.
To each his own.
I'm still researching of which way should I go for the brake upgrade...
but here's what I have in question regarding what JJCNSX mentioned... Supra had 4 piston caliper to start with, but our nsx still using one single big piston on one side:
I belived even we are getting pretty good performance with it, but the single piston will not create a balanced torque distribution as the 4 piston or even 6... thus when the rotor doing too much of its job, we start having uneven wear/ built up on the rotors...thus here comes brake shudder...
I just made the above comment up by myself, please correct me if I'm full of
but here's what I have in question regarding what JJCNSX mentioned... Supra had 4 piston caliper to start with, but our nsx still using one single big piston on one side:
I belived even we are getting pretty good performance with it, but the single piston will not create a balanced torque distribution as the 4 piston or even 6... thus when the rotor doing too much of its job, we start having uneven wear/ built up on the rotors...thus here comes brake shudder...
I just made the above comment up by myself, please correct me if I'm full of
You are partly right. Our calipers are sliding, meaning that there are pistons only on the inside, and a sliding mechanism pulls the opposite pad against the opposite side of the rotor.
But NSX rotors are two piston in the front. It is the ITR that has the single piston with the same surface area (AFAIK).
There are pro's and cons to both, with cost being the the biggest difference. Dual sided setups are able to clamp with a higher force, but are much more sensitive to rotor/hat placement, and possibly increased fluid temps due to the proximity of the crossover pipe to the pistons/rotor.
Would I prefer a monobloc dual side setup from the factory? Yes. Am I willing to drop the dough for that setup as an aftermarket kit? Not yet. (Although I do have a pair of Alcon's that may see the light of day on my NSX)
But NSX rotors are two piston in the front. It is the ITR that has the single piston with the same surface area (AFAIK).
There are pro's and cons to both, with cost being the the biggest difference. Dual sided setups are able to clamp with a higher force, but are much more sensitive to rotor/hat placement, and possibly increased fluid temps due to the proximity of the crossover pipe to the pistons/rotor.
Would I prefer a monobloc dual side setup from the factory? Yes. Am I willing to drop the dough for that setup as an aftermarket kit? Not yet. (Although I do have a pair of Alcon's that may see the light of day on my NSX)
Good read.nsxtasy said:
Something I didn't see was - can switching from one pad, which has been bedded to the rotor, to another pad (i.e., low temp street to high temp race) and back, can cause any deposit problems. Anyone know?
DOT 5 brake fluid?
where can i get those DOT5 brake fluid?
if what stoptech site were correct, i think i am gonna try DOT5 fluid. (specially for my supra, it has this annoying "soft pedal" feel)
how much are those? and any side effect?
anyone?
thx
-jjc.
where can i get those DOT5 brake fluid?
if what stoptech site were correct, i think i am gonna try DOT5 fluid. (specially for my supra, it has this annoying "soft pedal" feel)
how much are those? and any side effect?
anyone?
thx
-jjc.
Re: DOT 5 brake fluid?
JJC
The soft feel is caused by your brake lines, switch to braided lines, that will make more of a difference than switching your fluid.
The other possibility is that you have boiled your brake fluid in the past, then bleeding the brakes will take care of that.
You can't use DOT5 fluid on the NSX only DOT3 or DOT4 fluid, the composition of the fluid is different with DOT5.
I don't know about your Supra but if it uses DOT3/DOT4 fluid, you can't use DOT5.
Ken
JJCNSX said:
JJC
The soft feel is caused by your brake lines, switch to braided lines, that will make more of a difference than switching your fluid.
The other possibility is that you have boiled your brake fluid in the past, then bleeding the brakes will take care of that.
You can't use DOT5 fluid on the NSX only DOT3 or DOT4 fluid, the composition of the fluid is different with DOT5.
I don't know about your Supra but if it uses DOT3/DOT4 fluid, you can't use DOT5.
Ken
KGP said:Good read.
The Brembo rep at NSXPO03 went over this topic, his suggesion was to stick with the same manufacturer for the pads since they are more likely to use similar pad compounds between the streets and the track pads.
I've talked to reps at Carbotech and they have suggested the same thing as well.
P+ for the track and Bobcats for the street.
Ken
Re: Re: DOT 5 brake fluid?
Hi Ken,
My supra tt has braided lines already. I run Motul brake fluid, and I think supra tt uses DOT3/4, so I guess I can’t use DOT5. oh great.
Supra tt inherently has soft pedal, many ppl tried to fix that without any luck. Only way is to "upgrade" to brembo/ap/stoptech. but, I can fork out that kinda money.
btw, are you guys going to track evet anytime soon? I would love to learn how to drive MR from you guys..
-jjc.
supra - sunnyvale, ca
nsx - seatltle, wa
2slow2speed said:
Hi Ken,
My supra tt has braided lines already. I run Motul brake fluid, and I think supra tt uses DOT3/4, so I guess I can’t use DOT5. oh great.
Supra tt inherently has soft pedal, many ppl tried to fix that without any luck. Only way is to "upgrade" to brembo/ap/stoptech. but, I can fork out that kinda money.
btw, are you guys going to track evet anytime soon? I would love to learn how to drive MR from you guys..
-jjc.
supra - sunnyvale, ca
nsx - seatltle, wa
Hmmm... Sounds like we need to review some basic information about brake fluid, so there's no confusion about the DOT ratings.
1. The boiling point of brake fluid is the temperature at which it boils. The higher the boiling point, the better the protection against the brake system boiling and losing effectiveness.
2. Brake fluid is hygroscopic, which means that it likes to absorb water. When brake fluid is put into the system (from an unopened container), it is dry, meaning that there is no water in the brake fluid. At this time, its boiling point is at its highest - the "dry boiling point". Over time, the brake fluid will absorb moisture from the air, which lowers its boiling point, until it reaches the point when it has absorbed all the moisture it can. At this time, its boiling point is at its lowest - the "wet boiling point". Both boiling points are important in evaluating the protection that a brake fluid gives you; the dry boiling point may be more relevant if you flush your fluid frequently, while the wet boiling point may be equally important if you don't.
3. The Federal government Department of Transportation (hence the initials DOT) has standards for brake fluid. These standards include minimum temperatures as well as composition and other criteria (color, performance, etc). If you're interested, you can read them yourself: Look up TITLE 49, PART 571, Subpart B, Sec. 571.116, Standard No. 116; Motor vehicle brake fluids, on the GPO (Government Printing Office) website.
4. DOT 5 brake fluid is silicone-based brake fluid (SBBF). There is also a standard for DOT 5.1 brake fluid, which is non-silicone based brake fluid with the same minimum boiling points as SBBF.
5. You can mix DOT 3, DOT 4, and DOT 5.1 fluids with each other without any problem. You cannot mix any of these non-SBBF fluids with DOT 5 SBBF. You have to completely flush the brake fluid if you change to DOT 5 fluid, because DOT 5 SBBF cannot be mixed with DOT 3 or DOT 4. But you can use DOT 5.1 non-SBBF without any problems. The main reason that Honda recommends DOT 3 or DOT 4 and not DOT 5.1 is because they don't want to chance the possibility of anyone trying to mix DOT 5 SBBF with non-SBBF.
6. A brake fluid may have boiling points that are higher than the minimum specified by the DOT regulations. There are fluids that are considered DOT 3 or DOT 4 but have boiling points that are higher than the DOT 5 minimums.
7. Here are the dry and wet boiling points for many of the most popular brake fluids:
ARRANGED BY DRY BOILING POINT:
DRY:401F -- WET:284F --- DOT3 MINIMUM
DRY:446F -- WET:311F --- DOT4 MINIMUM
DRY:500F -- WET:356F --- DOT5 MINIMUM
DRY:502F -- WET:343F --- VALVOLINE SYNPOWER
DRY:509F -- WET:365F --- MOTUL 5.1
DRY:527F -- WET:302F --- AP RACING 551
DRY:536F -- WET:392F --- ATE SUPERBLUE/TYP200
DRY:550F -- WET:284F --- FORD HEAVY DUTY
DRY:590F -- WET:410F --- AP RACING 600
DRY:590F -- WET:518F --- CASTROL SRF
DRY:593F -- WET:420F --- MOTUL RBF600
DRY:610F -- WET:421F --- NEO-SYNTHETIC SUPER DOT 610
DRY:620F -- WET:425F --- COBALT SUPER XRF
ARRANGED BY WET BOILING POINT:
DRY:401F -- WET:284F --- DOT3 MINIMUM
DRY:550F -- WET:284F --- FORD HEAVY DUTY
DRY:527F -- WET:302F --- AP RACING 551
DRY:446F -- WET:311F --- DOT4 MINIMUM
DRY:502F -- WET:343F --- VALVOLINE SYNPOWER
DRY:500F -- WET:356F --- DOT5 MINIMUM
DRY:509F -- WET:365F --- MOTUL 5.1
DRY:536F -- WET:392F --- ATE SUPERBLUE/TYP200
DRY:590F -- WET:410F --- AP RACING 600
DRY:593F -- WET:420F --- MOTUL RBF600
DRY:610F -- WET:421F --- NEO-SYNTHETIC SUPER DOT 610
DRY:620F -- WET:425F --- COBALT SUPER XRF
DRY:590F -- WET:518F --- CASTROL SRF
As you can see, some of these fluids have really high boiling points - much higher than the DOT 5 minimums - and the price on most (with the notable exception of the Castrol SRF) is quite reasonable. If your fluid has been boiled - and a soft pedal is a symptom that it has - you will want to flush your fluid. You will probably find that using a higher-temperature fluid will prevent it in the future.
You can order many of the better fluids from Andie at Cobalt Friction, who sells lots of great brake products at great prices, and can provide great advice on braking systems.
1. The boiling point of brake fluid is the temperature at which it boils. The higher the boiling point, the better the protection against the brake system boiling and losing effectiveness.
2. Brake fluid is hygroscopic, which means that it likes to absorb water. When brake fluid is put into the system (from an unopened container), it is dry, meaning that there is no water in the brake fluid. At this time, its boiling point is at its highest - the "dry boiling point". Over time, the brake fluid will absorb moisture from the air, which lowers its boiling point, until it reaches the point when it has absorbed all the moisture it can. At this time, its boiling point is at its lowest - the "wet boiling point". Both boiling points are important in evaluating the protection that a brake fluid gives you; the dry boiling point may be more relevant if you flush your fluid frequently, while the wet boiling point may be equally important if you don't.
3. The Federal government Department of Transportation (hence the initials DOT) has standards for brake fluid. These standards include minimum temperatures as well as composition and other criteria (color, performance, etc). If you're interested, you can read them yourself: Look up TITLE 49, PART 571, Subpart B, Sec. 571.116, Standard No. 116; Motor vehicle brake fluids, on the GPO (Government Printing Office) website.
4. DOT 5 brake fluid is silicone-based brake fluid (SBBF). There is also a standard for DOT 5.1 brake fluid, which is non-silicone based brake fluid with the same minimum boiling points as SBBF.
5. You can mix DOT 3, DOT 4, and DOT 5.1 fluids with each other without any problem. You cannot mix any of these non-SBBF fluids with DOT 5 SBBF. You have to completely flush the brake fluid if you change to DOT 5 fluid, because DOT 5 SBBF cannot be mixed with DOT 3 or DOT 4. But you can use DOT 5.1 non-SBBF without any problems. The main reason that Honda recommends DOT 3 or DOT 4 and not DOT 5.1 is because they don't want to chance the possibility of anyone trying to mix DOT 5 SBBF with non-SBBF.
6. A brake fluid may have boiling points that are higher than the minimum specified by the DOT regulations. There are fluids that are considered DOT 3 or DOT 4 but have boiling points that are higher than the DOT 5 minimums.
7. Here are the dry and wet boiling points for many of the most popular brake fluids:
ARRANGED BY DRY BOILING POINT:
DRY:401F -- WET:284F --- DOT3 MINIMUM
DRY:446F -- WET:311F --- DOT4 MINIMUM
DRY:500F -- WET:356F --- DOT5 MINIMUM
DRY:502F -- WET:343F --- VALVOLINE SYNPOWER
DRY:509F -- WET:365F --- MOTUL 5.1
DRY:527F -- WET:302F --- AP RACING 551
DRY:536F -- WET:392F --- ATE SUPERBLUE/TYP200
DRY:550F -- WET:284F --- FORD HEAVY DUTY
DRY:590F -- WET:410F --- AP RACING 600
DRY:590F -- WET:518F --- CASTROL SRF
DRY:593F -- WET:420F --- MOTUL RBF600
DRY:610F -- WET:421F --- NEO-SYNTHETIC SUPER DOT 610
DRY:620F -- WET:425F --- COBALT SUPER XRF
ARRANGED BY WET BOILING POINT:
DRY:401F -- WET:284F --- DOT3 MINIMUM
DRY:550F -- WET:284F --- FORD HEAVY DUTY
DRY:527F -- WET:302F --- AP RACING 551
DRY:446F -- WET:311F --- DOT4 MINIMUM
DRY:502F -- WET:343F --- VALVOLINE SYNPOWER
DRY:500F -- WET:356F --- DOT5 MINIMUM
DRY:509F -- WET:365F --- MOTUL 5.1
DRY:536F -- WET:392F --- ATE SUPERBLUE/TYP200
DRY:590F -- WET:410F --- AP RACING 600
DRY:593F -- WET:420F --- MOTUL RBF600
DRY:610F -- WET:421F --- NEO-SYNTHETIC SUPER DOT 610
DRY:620F -- WET:425F --- COBALT SUPER XRF
DRY:590F -- WET:518F --- CASTROL SRF
As you can see, some of these fluids have really high boiling points - much higher than the DOT 5 minimums - and the price on most (with the notable exception of the Castrol SRF) is quite reasonable. If your fluid has been boiled - and a soft pedal is a symptom that it has - you will want to flush your fluid. You will probably find that using a higher-temperature fluid will prevent it in the future.
You can order many of the better fluids from Andie at Cobalt Friction, who sells lots of great brake products at great prices, and can provide great advice on braking systems.
Wow, Ken... that's one heck of an explanation. I sense an NSX FAQ entry being made from that post!
I highly recommend Cobalt Friction, and not just because they are a sponsor of the DAL Motorsports NSX in the Grand Am Cup series. I recommend them because the products are among the best I've used on the car -and- Andie Lin is an awesome guy and NSX owner, to boot!
I urge people to call Cobalt and get a recommendation on a pad compound from them based on their particular application (street, track, both) and how their car is configured (weight, brake size, rotors used, etc.). Let the guys that live in the world of brake pads and NSXs make a recommendation - they most likely know a bit more about these things than you or I do.
This is how we work with Cobalt on the race NSX - in essence, Andie is our personal braking system consultant (nice to have, isn't it?). He hasn't "steered" us wrong yet!
EDR
I highly recommend Cobalt Friction, and not just because they are a sponsor of the DAL Motorsports NSX in the Grand Am Cup series. I recommend them because the products are among the best I've used on the car -and- Andie Lin is an awesome guy and NSX owner, to boot!
I urge people to call Cobalt and get a recommendation on a pad compound from them based on their particular application (street, track, both) and how their car is configured (weight, brake size, rotors used, etc.). Let the guys that live in the world of brake pads and NSXs make a recommendation - they most likely know a bit more about these things than you or I do.
This is how we work with Cobalt on the race NSX - in essence, Andie is our personal braking system consultant (nice to have, isn't it?). He hasn't "steered" us wrong yet!
EDR
Good read Ken. As far as the slotted rotors are concerned, I noticed the biggest improvement on the track where my slotted OEM rotors no longer shuddered after multiple laps and considerable hard braking. On the street any perfomance gain from slotted rotors was negligable.
BTW NSXDreamer2, the front brakes on the NSX are 2 piston calipers.
BTW NSXDreamer2, the front brakes on the NSX are 2 piston calipers.
Dave,
Congrats on the new upgrades! We need to get everyone together for a drive again. Stay in touch!
.
Congrats on the new upgrades! We need to get everyone together for a drive again. Stay in touch!
.
I know I get annoying (with the brake topic), so I will keep this short.
Some other benefits of OEM sized slotted vs solid OEM, is better wet braking, faster bite after an emergency stop was performed. (slots clean off the glaze faster) and lastly the zinc coating (or other coatings) make them look better than the OEM solids, due no rust build up.
I also thank Ken for the chart. I saw that my fluid of choice was not near the top!!! I liked my fluid, but now will try some better ones (according to the chart) this year. (can never cease to improve right?)
Some other benefits of OEM sized slotted vs solid OEM, is better wet braking, faster bite after an emergency stop was performed. (slots clean off the glaze faster) and lastly the zinc coating (or other coatings) make them look better than the OEM solids, due no rust build up.
I also thank Ken for the chart. I saw that my fluid of choice was not near the top!!! I liked my fluid, but now will try some better ones (according to the chart) this year. (can never cease to improve right?)
ncdogdoc said:
On my NSX, I was unable to activate ABS in the dry pressing pretty hard (not a panic situation, so no adrenaline to help) with the stock pads. (Or maybe not - by 50k the previous owner could have put something else on?)
With the Panther Plus, it is pretty easy to kick on ABS in the dry. In daily driving, they are a little "slippery" on the first stop or two, but still stop fine (and these are normally on my way out of the neighborhood). After that, they grab very well, even after my 65MPH highway cruise (five minutes) to my office. In the cold right now, they feel "slippery" a little longer.
How do the Bobcats compare to the P+ when warmed up?
I've changed my stock brake set up slightly:
Carbotech pads (forgot which kinds but they are more for track than street)
Braided brake lines and Mutol brake fluid.
IMHO, it is a huge improvement over stock in every way. My first very bad experience with the NSX was brake shudder. The pedal was mushy as hell (I've never experienced anything like that before) and almost cost me big time. This is one of the best "upgrades" (cuz to me thats what it is) I have done. I have yet to track my NSX; however, I have driven aggressively on the street/highway to test out my brakes, and I've yet to feel any shudder/fading.
I'm sorry. But I do not believe the NSX brakes '91-'96 are very good as stock. Better than average!! But, not to par with the rest of the cars great performance.
I am curious however. Ken, you have tracked you car a great deal. Do you run a totally stock brake set up???
Carbotech pads (forgot which kinds but they are more for track than street)
Braided brake lines and Mutol brake fluid.
IMHO, it is a huge improvement over stock in every way. My first very bad experience with the NSX was brake shudder. The pedal was mushy as hell (I've never experienced anything like that before) and almost cost me big time. This is one of the best "upgrades" (cuz to me thats what it is) I have done. I have yet to track my NSX; however, I have driven aggressively on the street/highway to test out my brakes, and I've yet to feel any shudder/fading.
I'm sorry. But I do not believe the NSX brakes '91-'96 are very good as stock. Better than average!! But, not to par with the rest of the cars great performance.
I am curious however. Ken, you have tracked you car a great deal. Do you run a totally stock brake set up???
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