Honcho 3.3L ITB Build Thread

[Honcho]

Continuing the discussion here from Dave's FI thread.

Based on the build budget for the car, here's where we are as of today:

Parts

-- 3.0L block
-- 95mm Benson sleeves
-- 95mm custom pistons
-- Stock Ti rods
-- Stock main caps (chamfered & radiused)
-- ARP main bolts
-- ARP rod bolts (Necessary?)
-- ARP head studs
-- Cometic MLS Head Gasket (95mm)
-- Ferrea 36mm intake valves
-- Ferrea exhaust valves
-- Supertech valve springs
-- Steel retainers
-- Honda LMAs
-- KSP Racing Stage 2 cams
-- CT Adj. cam gears
-- Power Enterprises timing belt
-- SoS Billet oil pump
-- RFY oil pan
-- SoS ITB System/Injector Dynamics ID 1050x
-- AEM Infinity 506 w/ 2nd UEGO

Services
-- Disassemble block
-- Hot tank block, magnaflux crank and mains for cracks
-- Clean out all crank, piston and block oil passages, remove block plugs, clean and replace
-- Sleeve block, align bore and hone to 95 mm
-- Mill block to accept MLS gasket (minimum material removed for good seal)
-- Press out? piston wrist pins
-- Disassemble heads
-- Hot tank heads, inspect guides for wear and replace if necessary
-- Cut seats for 36mm intake valves, 3-angle valve job
-- Mill heads to accept MLS gasket (minimum material removed for good seal)
-- Balance rotating assembly
-- Polish crank
-- Clearance mains and rods (replace bearings)
-- Assemble short block
-- Assemble heads

I can do all of the disassembly myself and re-assembly, except for the heads, as I do not have the specialty tools for removing the valve springs. Thoughts on pistons? Benson is offering custom CP pistons as part of his sleeving deal. I am leaning toward a 4032 alloy vs 2618, as I am not going FI. Less oil consumption with the 4032. Coat or don't coat? The factory pistons are moly-coated, but they have a much larger skirt than the aftermarket designs.

 

[docjohn]

You are way out of my league..but I will watch in patient anticipation of another sweet NA build. The noise will be epic.

 

[Mac Attack]

Awesome!

A few notes off the top of my head:
* Give the OEM oil cooler a good cleaning inside. Also, check the oil pickup condition.
* Benson will ask you what kind of HG you will use and prep the surface finish for the appropriate gasket after making sure it is flat... BUT, make sure you also tell the machinist doing the heads so they can get the appropriate smooth finish too (the Cometic MLS HG requires a 50 Ra or smoother finish to seal properly).
* For whatever it's worth, I used the ARP rod bolts with the OEM rods. It's not 100% necessary, but the rods are a very stressed part of the engine. At least use new rod bolts/nuts. Coincidentally, I reused the OEM main bolts since I kept the OEM mains like you're planning. The 6-bolt mains are pretty good. Doubt you'll have a problem. Keep in mind if you change fasteners from OEM, you need to torque down the components and ensure dimensional tolerances are still met.
* For the pistons, they'll press out the fixed pin and you'll convert to a floating pin. Because of galling concerns of the floating steel pin and titanium rod, you'll need to "bush" the OEM rod little end to a more acceptable material. Or, you can coat the pin with DLC and just slightly hone the rod little end. It was newer tech about 7 years ago when I did it on the NSX, but I understand it's a little more commonplace now. Seems to have held up OK so far on my build.
* For a N/A build with the parts you have, I would consider sending the heads to Superflow or Endyn (if he's still around) for the work. I didn't see anything mentioned yet like porting and stuff like that. Seems like a good time to do it.
* Use silicon hoses?
* Little things like new engine block drain plugs, coolant/camshaft/CPS sensors, and even the freaking $600 "engine rubber" kit take time to find these days. If you're 100% sure you're going to do this project, order the OEM stuff ASAP and let it sit until you need it.
* You may still be deliberating on a clutch, but on the other end I would suggest the ATI harmonic dampener. It's nice to pick a clutch while the engine is apart because the machinist can do two balances - one with the flywheel and one without. The NSX-R rotating assembly was balanced with the flywheel from the factory.
* With the injectors it sounds like it will be flex fuel. Don't underestimate the cost of the appropriate fuel system. It's easy to dump $750+ into parts alone. Well, you'll save a few hundred with the rails in the ITB kit. I would go with a DW pump over Walbro any day.

 

[Honcho]

You are way out of my league..but I will watch in patient anticipation of another sweet NA build. The noise will be epic.

Nah, it's not so hard. All those years building engines with my dad as a kid hopefully will pay off! But yes, I am looking forward to the ITB howl.

Awesome!

A few notes off the top of my head:
* Give the OEM oil cooler a good cleaning inside. Also, check the oil pickup condition.
* Benson will ask you what kind of HG you will use and prep the surface finish for the appropriate gasket after making sure it is flat... BUT, make sure you also tell the machinist doing the heads so they can get the appropriate smooth finish too (the Cometic MLS HG requires a 50 Ra or smoother finish to seal properly).
* For whatever it's worth, I used the ARP rod bolts with the OEM rods. It's not 100% necessary, but the rods are a very stressed part of the engine. At least use new rod bolts/nuts. Coincidentally, I reused the OEM main bolts since I kept the OEM mains like you're planning. The 6-bolt mains are pretty good. Doubt you'll have a problem. Keep in mind if you change fasteners from OEM, you need to torque down the components and ensure dimensional tolerances are still met.
* For the pistons, they'll press out the fixed pin and you'll convert to a floating pin. Because of galling concerns of the floating steel pin and titanium rod, you'll need to "bush" the OEM rod little end to a more acceptable material. Or, you can coat the pin with DLC and just slightly hone the rod little end. It was newer tech about 7 years ago when I did it on the NSX, but I understand it's a little more commonplace now. Seems to have held up OK so far on my build.
* For a N/A build with the parts you have, I would consider sending the heads to Superflow or Endyn (if he's still around) for the work. I didn't see anything mentioned yet like porting and stuff like that. Seems like a good time to do it.
* Use silicon hoses?
* Little things like new engine block drain plugs, coolant/camshaft/CPS sensors, and even the freaking $600 "engine rubber" kit take time to find these days. If you're 100% sure you're going to do this project, order the OEM stuff ASAP and let it sit until you need it.
* You may still be deliberating on a clutch, but on the other end I would suggest the ATI harmonic dampener. It's nice to pick a clutch while the engine is apart because the machinist can do two balances - one with the flywheel and one without. The NSX-R rotating assembly was balanced with the flywheel from the factory.
* With the injectors it sounds like it will be flex fuel. Don't underestimate the cost of the appropriate fuel system. It's easy to dump $750+ into parts alone. Well, you'll save a few hundred with the rails in the ITB kit. I would go with a DW pump over Walbro any day.

All great advice. I think I will stick with the OEM main bolts then (if they can stand up to 600 whp FI, then my little ITB engine should be fine), but use the ARP in the rods. I probably won't port the heads, as they already flow extremely well from Honda. I probably will go with silicone hoses for the main ones and new OEM hoses for the rest. I just discovered through my Japan parts guy that Koyo makes a 48 mm core "Type-F" radiator for the NSX (stock is 32 mm, and "US" Koyo is 36 mm). Only sold in Japan, but I will have some big boxes of parts coming across the ocean at some point (Fujitsubo, KSP, OS Giken, Genuine R parts, etc). I don't think it will interfere with the NSX-R hood duct...I hope. Given the horrible head gasket saga with my last NSX, I'm going ARP and MLS and torquing them MYSELF. Kaz told me that in Japan, the techs will torque the head bolts and then leave them overnight. They check again in the morning and he said it was not uncommon for a bolt or two to have moved as much 5 degrees as the metal relaxed during the night! On that, do the ARP head studs require timeserts/helicoils in the block? IIRC, the torque spec is 85 lb/ft. That's an awful lot on aluminum threads...

I'm going with Adnan's CPS shown here. My research over the years revealed that on the Toda C35B (high rpm, big cams, ITB), they went to this type of crank sensor because of belt stretch and harmonic issues from the RPM and load on the factory sensor. This one will never move, so no matter what is going on with the belt, the ECU will know exactly where the crank is. Peace of mind on a modified engine.

After much debate and research, I'm going with the OS Giken Streetmaster (Hard Version). It's a single plate unit that is good to 350 lb/ft of torque- more than what my 3.3L should do (I'll be happy with 300!) A lot quieter than the STR twin plate.

 

[Honcho]

* With the injectors it sounds like it will be flex fuel. Don't underestimate the cost of the appropriate fuel system. It's easy to dump $750+ into parts alone. Well, you'll save a few hundred with the rails in the ITB kit. I would go with a DW pump over Walbro any day.

Nope, no E85 here. From my GT-R tuning experience, I had excellent results with the ASNU 1050cc 14-hole injectors. (BTW, if you want to see an internet WAR, go to the GT-R forums and search for ID vs. ASNU). Idle characteristics on my VR38DETT with those injectors was identical to factory using even the stock ECU, yet they could easily support over 20 psi of boost. The ID 1050x are a similar design and should give stable idle on a 3.3L. Plus, SoS recommends them for the ITB kit. I was actually thinking of going with a Supra Denso OEM pump...if I need one. I've seen too many horror stories about the Walbros crapping out. Honestly, I'm not FI, so the OEM Honda pump may be sufficient to deliver enough fuel.

 

[Mac Attack]

Kaz told me that in Japan, the techs will torque the head bolts and then leave them overnight. They check again in the morning and he said it was not uncommon for a bolt or two to have moved as much 5 degrees as the metal relaxed during the night! On that, do the ARP head studs require timeserts/helicoils in the block? IIRC, the torque spec is 85 lb/ft. That's an awful lot on aluminum threads...

Funny, that's one of the things I did and mentioned here yesterday :biggrin:
http://www.nsxprime.com/forum/showthread.php/154927-Semi-DIY-Mild-Engine-Build-for-FI/page22?p=1973544&viewfull=1#post1973544

All torque specifications from engineers factor in the thread dimensions, the bolt and block materials, and the thread lubricant used. I timeserted my block for the same concern you have, and also the documented block thread failures on here (primarily with C32 engine blocks though). I would have to check my build notes (you should keep a notebook too of all the specs and notes you've taken along the way), but IIRC I torqued my heads to 90-92 ft-lbs using the ARP head bolt lube. There have been many studies on head bolt lubes and the best ones provide consistent repeatable stress values in the bolts. The lube used will affect your torque specs so make sure you don't inadvertently over-torque a bolt with some lube that's super slippery!

None of the Honda OEM head bolts, main bolts, or even the rod bolts are torque to yield (unlike German or some American engines), so they are re-useable if you want. Aftermarket ARP head bolts and rod bolts are cheap, so I like to use those.

I'm going with Adnan's CPS shown here. My research over the years revealed that on the Toda C35B (high rpm, big cams, ITB), they went to this type of crank sensor because of belt stretch and harmonic issues from the RPM and load on the factory sensor. This one will never move, so no matter what is going on with the belt, the ECU will know exactly where the crank is. Peace of mind on a modified engine.

That's a nice setup. Operator (the mastermind behind Adnan's turbo, oil cooler, ignition coils, and CPS) has some great ideas and products. With stock valvesprings/cams, etc, I wasn't worried about additional stress and stretch on the OEM belt. I went with a new standard CPS and haven't had any issues (looking at coil signals, in-cylinder pressure traces, and AFR spikes) even at 9k RPM on my engine. FYI - I went with a standard OEM TB from Honda. I've seen used Power Enterprise belts that seem to deposit a lot of gunk on the timing gears. Seems like it gets gummy over time. You don't want to leave it on there because it adds drag, and it takes a lot of time to clean that crap off each tooth.

After much debate and research, I'm going with the OS Giken Streetmaster (Hard Version). It's a single plate unit that is good to 350 lb/ft of torque- more than what my 3.3L should do (I'll be happy with 300!) A lot quieter than the STR twin plate.

Nice, I don't know of anyone with that. I still recommend you get one before the build so the flywheel can be supplied to the crankshaft balancer. This is little nit-picky stuff, but if Honda did it for their Type-R, you should do it for yours!

 

[Mac Attack]

Oh, CP pistons are nice. I think there are a few here running them. Coatings are cheap, so it probably wouldn't hurt to do the skirts. I did the skirt coating as well as ceramic piston top coating.

Finally, I think [MENTION=20915]RYU[/MENTION] is considering a N/A build. Maybe you two can do a mini group buy on parts from Japan!

 

[RYU]

[MENTION=12356]Mac Attack[/MENTION] stealing my thunder as usual! lol jk bud

since i was tagged i'll sub!

 

[RYU]

What CR are you shooting for? You're still running this at high altitude right?

 

[Mac Attack]

[MENTION=12356]Mac Attack[/MENTION] stealing my thunder as usual! lol jk bud

Yeah, sorry. I don't have facebook so that just leaves messing with people on Prime.

Maybe you and Paul can combine NA builds in one thread like Bats and I did on the FI builds!

 

[RYU]

Yeah, sorry. I don't have facebook so that just leaves messing with people on Prime.

Maybe you and Paul can combine NA builds in one thread like Bats and I did on the FI builds!

A few things have come up (unfortunately) so i'm going to be an eager spectator in Paul's thread for now

I have done quite a bit of homework and my takeway is that the more amount spent on an NA build the steeper and steeper the diminishing curve looks like. big DUH moment, i'm sure.

 

[Honcho]

What CR are you shooting for? You're still running this at high altitude right?

11:1 We only have 91 in Colorado, so I think 11:1 is about as high as I can safely go with the Infinity.

Yeah, sorry. I don't have facebook so that just leaves messing with people on Prime.

Maybe you and Paul can combine NA builds in one thread like Bats and I did on the FI builds!

Regan can post here anytime. We will be the Mac and Bats of N/A!!

A few things have come up (unfortunately) so i'm going to be an eager spectator in Paul's thread for now

I have done quite a bit of homework and my takeway is that the more amount spent on an NA build the steeper and steeper the diminishing curve looks like. big DUH moment, i'm sure.

Not the cheapest way to power by any means, but it's not about that for me. It's about the drama of ITB and the spirit of NSX.

 

[BATMANs]

Why use Supertech valve springs instead of what you have or Ferrera springs?

Was the Benson sleeves for a wider bore?

 

[DreamPowered]

I’ll be keeping an eye on this tread. Lots of great info as usual Honcho.
Hope you find a good donor car to make your own.

 

[RYU]

[MENTION=18194]Honcho[/MENTION] you're my hero for starting this build. Good luck! LMK how I can help.

 

[Honcho]

[MENTION=20915]RYU[/MENTION] you know you want to go ITB...just do it!

 

[Honcho]

Why use Supertech valve springs instead of what you have or Ferrera springs?

Was the Benson sleeves for a wider bore?

Mostly based on [MENTION=12356]Mac Attack[/MENTION] data on springs in his/your build thread. It seemed like the Eibach were too stiff and gave up power for that reason, but the Supertechs were stiffer than OEM, but not too much. Really I want something that can handle KSP or Comptech lift and not crack and ruin my engine like [MENTION=4282]docjohn[/MENTION]. I don't want to have to open the valve covers every oil change to inspect the springs. This isn't a race engine, it's a NSX-R +. Hence steel retainers, but I also need good valve springs. Honestly, I would go with 3.2L OEM springs if the experts thought they are ok for durability on KSP or Comptech cams. Yes, the Benson sleeves are for a 95 mm bore.

I’ll be keeping an eye on this tread. Lots of great info as usual Honcho.
Hope you find a good donor car to make your own.

Just found one. Deposit down.

 

[RYU]

@RYU you know you want to go ITB...just do it!

maybe someday!

 

[DocL]

...Just found one. Deposit down.

Is it Black and have mold? Remember that pos we looked at lol.

 

[Honcho]

Is it Black and have mold? Remember that pos we looked at lol.

No this one is legit. I still remember the smell when we opened the door on that one.

 

[SR-71]

[MENTION=18194]Honcho[/MENTION] love what your doing what is the lift of the KSP cams? are the primary's the same as factory and the vtec is reground? Whats the specs compared to Toda Type C cams?

 

[Honcho]

[MENTION=18194]Honcho[/MENTION] love what your doing what is the lift of the KSP cams? are the primary's the same as factory and the vtec is reground? Whats the specs compared to Toda Type C cams?

Based on the google translation of their websiite, the KSP Stage 1 cams retain the OEM lobes for non-VTEC, but have increased lift for VTEC. The Stage 2 cams increase both lobes. They did not list the cam specs, though.

 

[Honcho]

Chip Tuning Resources

I've been out of the Honda game for a while. What do I need to tune the 3.0 to use Comptech cams on the OEM ECU?

I read something about Ostrich?
Also, [MENTION=16606]sr5guy[/MENTION] [MENTION=12723]greenberet[/MENTION] - I keep seeing something about the ECU "definition." Do I need that too? Also, somewhere Matt said you can clip the R4 resistor off of the auto ECU and it reverts to the manual maps. Is this confirmed? It would save me having to hunt down a manual ECU from a wreck.

Basically, what tools/resources do I need to ask for at a tuner? It seems like this would need to be something tuned on my car on a dyno and NOT by mail lol.

 

[Old Guy]

Basically, what tools/resources do I need to ask for at a tuner? It seems like this would need to be something tuned on my car on a dyno and NOT by mail lol.

The Moates' Ostrich is an emulator which allows you to trace a ROM (sort of like a brain MRI that can trace activity in the brain when your thinking about ....?) and emulate a ROM. It is only one part of the package of stuff that is needed to modify the ECU's ROM. Also, the Ostrich is not the only emulator out there so the fact that somebody does not have an Ostrich doesn't mean that they are not capable of doing this.

If you want to go this path, you need to find a tuner who has experience with re mapping the ROMs in OBDI and earlier ECUs. It would be exceedingly desirable that they have done this successfully on an NSX ECU. This may be a hard combination to find. I don't know how much the NSX ECU firmware has in common with other Honda ECUs so experience with non NSX ECUs may not be transferable. Getting the ECU definition from SR5Guy will be critical; otherwise, your tuner will have to create the definition and that will be one huge pile of work. In the absence of an available definition, you need to do your ROM mapping to find out what memory address is being accessed by the ECU for every engine operating point. As I recall, SR5guy did this by building an engine emulator on the test bench which generated the ignition and MAP signals as inputs so that he could map the ECU. If you have a 16x16 fuel map, ignition map, Vtec map, EGR map that is 256 test points you have to find and read for each map. Worse if the map resolution is higher. That is a huge potential time suck! If you can get SR5guys definition, that could be a huge start; but, you would want to make sure that the ECU that SR5guy used and that you get have identical part numbers. I also seem to recall that SR5guy did not complete the definition. You would need to determine whether the definition is complete enough for what you want to do.

As an observation, if you go the route of remapping the OEM ECU, unless you become competent to do it yourself you will likely be forever wedded to the tuner who tuned and remapped your ECU. If a problem arises with your car you are probably not going to be able to drop in on the nearest competent tuner.

If you wanted to retain the original OEM ECU because of the start up, warm up and idle control functions and error reporting and all that other OEM good stuff, I would be inclined to go with something like the AEM FIC which allows you to modify the fuel and ignition maps (I don't know about the VTEC). However, since you are planning to go with ITBs rather than retain the OEM throttle body mechanism, you may have flushed all that OEM coding and refinement down the toilet because it likely will not work well with ITBs (how do you even do idle control with ITBs?). Also, if SR5guy did not complete the definition for the sections of the firmware dealing with start up, warm up and idle control, you have a fair amount of work associated with completing the definition for those sections of the firmware.

I would be inclined to bite the bullet and make the move to an after market EMS of some kind. If you were just doing the camshafts, you could probably get away with remapping the ECU or using a FIC. The ITBs represent too big of a change. The OEM ECU leaves you with N X density as your only fuel equation option. You may need an N X alpha fuel equation, a blend of the two or a fuel equation that switches between the two depending on operating conditions to make the ITBs work.

 

[RYU]

I can't seem to find any reviews of NSX owners with ITBs. I know there are quite a few out there. I'd really like to know how their daily driving manners are (i.e. idle, on/off throttle performance, etc). I suspect driveability is finicky but hope someone can prove me wrong. I know the S2000 guys have some quirks in their ITB systems but hope to hear from NSX guys.

Also, I thought I read SOS stop selling their kit? Not sure if that's true.