Hints of the HSC in a good way....?

[liftcontrol]

http://www.motortrend.com/features/auto_news/2010/1011_honda_nsx_gets_new_lease_on_life/index.html

http://www.motortrend.com/features/...onda_nsx_gets_new_lease_on_life/photo_02.html

This is the best "hopeful" rendering of a potential offering from Honda and is the best looking that I have come across so far.

If it sees the light of day, it would likely have a version of the tested 3.4V8 and if the hp/wt ratio is around that of the GT-R with better balance in a RWD platform, then it would be a true drivers car.

If they wish to not repeat the market failure of the NSX, they will be smart to price it in the neighborhood of the GTR and not the LFA. Toyota can afford to price the LFA as it has. Honda cannot.

Build it. We are waiting. We will come.

 

[SaleenS7Rs]

I think we talked about this car a while ago.

 

[Xluder]

They can try all they want, everything now just seems generic....they better not name it the NSX, because those are some big shoes to fill

 

[LJSB]

Regarding your comment of the "market failure" of the NSX I'm not sure I agree. After visiting the factory where it was made and learning more about how it was made I'm thinking they never expected it to be a big production number car and knew exactly what they were doing. Making a very special car, an experiment of sorts. My opinion is based on the following:

This was a hand assembled car.
a)welded not by production machinery but by hand. It was "plug welded" and that is a slow technique.
Individual plug welds that went through many panels then ground down to a slight countersink and epoxied over on top.

b) Hand assembled motor.

c) Hand painted not by machine but by people with paint guns in their
hands.

d) Hand assembled interior and exterior. All components were installed in this manner.

e) The most expensive car they offered by quite a bit at the time of introduction.

These considerations confine the output to a very low numbers and the experts in production that they are at Honda are would certainly expect and know that.

At the Japan factory they had a center where one could go to order exactly what color combinations they wanted including things like seat and stitching accent colors.This is again not something you do if you want or expect big numbers.

The total output of cars in Japan was very close to the number sold in the U.S. Around 11k units. I'm not sure of the exact number but I believe the total numbers of NSX's made was less than 30 thousand. That's from 1990 in Japan and 1991 in the U.S. to 2005 world wide.

Seriously if they were concerned about numbers they would have pulled the plug after the first two years. They did not.

It was as one member, I believe it was SFNSXGUY, remarked:
"an exercise in engineering."

A vehicular version of the tiny Bonsai tree. Perhaps in some way a tribute to Soichiro Honda himself.

I do not think Honda EVER felt that the NSX was a failure in ANY regard.

I admit, I did think it was a failure in numbers as well but now think differently.
After listening to and talking to the different and directly involved NSX engineers and managers some whose presence I felt graced to have shared, I have changed my thinking.

I believe they made the NSX EXACTLY the way they wanted to and got the results they expected and wanted. These people are no fools and knew what they were doing and KNEW what results they would achieve.
Now I don't think a large target number of sold units at ALL was ever the idea.

Coming to this realization for me was a shock to my American business consciousness. "What company would do this?"
The answer?
One that had a artistic/technical soul and let it run free for a while because they wanted to and could. Not to make a buck but to make a artistic, engineering statement.

My 2 cents.

 

[chudson1549]

A reversed ACCORD PLATFORM!!!..A FOUR cyclinder with a v-6 option....I'm keeping my car for sure.

 

[docjohn]

Joe thats 2000 cents I was sadly not with you guys in Japan ,but feel the same way you do.

 

[captainjman]

Joe thats 2000 cents I was sadly not with you guys in Japan ,but feel the same way you do.

at least 2000 cents costs less than an R8, which by the way is an amazing car. I should never have driven it ! LOL

 

[Osiris_x11]

rare bird w/ an ever-thinning population...

The total output of cars in Japan was very close to the number sold in the U.S. Around 11k units. I'm not sure of the exact number but I believe the total numbers of NSX's made was less than 30 thousand. That's from 1990 in Japan and 1991 in the U.S. to 2005 world wide...

To the best of my knowledge (based on all that I've heard & read), I believe there were ~8k NSX units imported to the U.S. (at/close to 9k, or just shy of it) and all-in-all ~18k NSX units produced overall (at/close to 19k, or just shy of it).

FWIW,

= 18,623 - total

-> 8,949 - U.S.
-> 7,395 - JPN

Reference linkies...

http://www.nsxprime.com/forums/showthread.php?t=88373

http://www.nsxprime.com/wiki/Production_Numbers

 

[tbromley]

Joe, I never heard it explained this way but now that you have put it out here I can see what you mean. I know you were able to talk to the engineers - lucky you. Wish I could have been with you guys in Japan. I love Japanese architecture and gardening (as an architect - of course I would).

I always felt that it was a failure in marketing but now that you put it out here like this I guess I'll have to reconsider my thinking. Thank goodness someone or some company was able to do this - we should all feel even more lucky to have one! One day they will be valuable but I am disheartened to think that someday and it's already happening some parts will not be sold any longer. I am dissappointed in that. I would think a company like Honda would support it's most important "experiment" for a whole lot longer!

Thanks Joe,

Regarding your comment of the "market failure" of the NSX I'm not sure I agree. After visiting the factory where it was made and learning more about how it was made I'm thinking they never expected it to be a big production number car and knew exactly what they were doing. Making a very special car, an experiment of sorts. My opinion is based on the following:

This was a hand assembled car.
a)welded not by production machinery but by hand. It was "plug welded" and that is a slow technique.
Individual plug welds that went through many panels then ground down to a slight countersink and epoxied over on top.

b) Hand assembled motor.

c) Hand painted not by machine but by people with paint guns in their
hands.

d) Hand assembled interior and exterior. All components were installed in this manner.

e) The most expensive car they offered by quite a bit at the time of introduction.

These considerations confine the output to a very low numbers and the experts in production that they are at Honda are would certainly expect and know that.

At the Japan factory they had a center where one could go to order exactly what color combinations they wanted including things like seat and stitching accent colors.This is again not something you do if you want or expect big numbers.

The total output of cars in Japan was very close to the number sold in the U.S. Around 11k units. I'm not sure of the exact number but I believe the total numbers of NSX's made was less than 30 thousand. That's from 1990 in Japan and 1991 in the U.S. to 2005 world wide.

Seriously if they were concerned about numbers they would have pulled the plug after the first two years. They did not.

It was as one member, I believe it was SFNSXGUY, remarked:
"an exercise in engineering."

A vehicular version of the tiny Bonsai tree. Perhaps in some way a tribute to Soichiro Honda himself.

I do not think Honda EVER felt that the NSX was a failure in ANY regard.

I admit, I did think it was a failure in numbers as well but now think differently.
After listening to and talking to the different and directly involved NSX engineers and managers some whose presence I felt graced to have shared, I have changed my thinking.

I believe they made the NSX EXACTLY the way they wanted to and got the results they expected and wanted. These people are no fools and knew what they were doing and KNEW what results they would achieve.
Now I don't think a large target number of sold units at ALL was ever the idea.

Coming to this realization for me was a shock to my American business consciousness. "What company would do this?"
The answer?
One that had a artistic/technical soul and let it run free for a while because they wanted to and could. Not to make a buck but to make a artistic, engineering statement.

My 2 cents.

 

[POWERED by HONDA]

Well said, Joe... well said!

--Conrad

 

[captainjman]

I was also always under the impression that the NSX was supposed to be a low production car. Not just the hand built reason though....

Anytime a car manufacturer makes a halo car, and sells it for less than it costs to produce its obvious they do not want to make a lot of them. Just enough to get people to walk through the door.

The LFA is the same deal, and the R8 too, and probably even the GT-R. I think they lose money on all of them.

But when someone walks in that showroom and sees a racecar sitting there, when they buy their TLS they feel their engine is amazing because its "straight out of the NSX", or buy this audi because we put all our research from the R8 into this car.

On a side note, did you hear that the new Audi TT (rs i think) is so fast, they need to detune the engine because it is FASTER than the R8 and they cant allow the TT to have better specs than the R8? I just heard that...

seems like buying a TT and retuning it would be a nice cheap way to get a decent looking rocket of a car.

J

 

[AR]

I do hope that Honda make a new "higher end" sports car in limited numbers for around the same money as gtr, base 911, etc.

As for the specs, just look at the amv8 and R8v8 not really fast cars, but they move and look nice. They sell well, are desireable and somewhat rare.

Would we eve get another NSX? In this climate I doubt it. Look at the LFA, to me that would be in the same sort of league as the new NSX would have to be to be worthy of the NSX name. Yet I could not afford it if it was LFA money, nor can the average Joe.

 

[LJSB]

I could not afford it if it was LFA money, nor can the average Joe.

So that really rules this one out.:redface:

 

[AR]

So that really rules this one out.:redface:

Joe you are not average you seem like a great guy.

I dont think Honda would be mad enough to build a car like the LFA that sells for £ 340.000 GBP unless they are looking to build and sell just five like the GTR.

If they build a Honda sports car with the type R spirit for 911 money ( around £ 70.000 GBP ) I will run to Honda to put in my deposit.

BTW that car looks like a Peugot RCZ than a Honda, where is the fun in Honda.

 

[captainjman]

I do hope that Honda make a new "higher end" sports car in limited numbers for around the same money as gtr, base 911, etc.

As for the specs, just look at the amv8 and R8v8 not really fast cars, but they move and look nice. They sell well, are desireable and somewhat rare.

Would we eve get another NSX? In this climate I doubt it. Look at the LFA, to me that would be in the same sort of league as the new NSX would have to be to be worthy of the NSX name. Yet I could not afford it if it was LFA money, nor can the average Joe.

I hope my disagreeing with you will not offend you:

1. The V8 R8 - SUCKS - I drove both, anyone who knows anything about cars will not want one. The V10 ROCKS! Period.

2. LFA costs 425k (US) - and they are losing money on them. But that is not really fair to say it SHOULD cost that much. The cost is based on ridiculous carbon fiber EVERYTHING, with a special laser loom of which there is only 2 of on the planet to make it, and all the R&D cost is divided by only 500 cars total... so yeah, its gonna cost a TON. The NSX will not be priced like the LFA because even the LFA shouldn't be priced like the LFA. If you think about it, just a honda accord (if you only made 1 of them) would cost tens of millions of dollars because all the R&D and crash tests, etc etc would not be divided my a myriad of cars.

3. GTR - I drove the 2010. It is blazing fast - actually scary fast... and the new one is even faster than that.. and they resolved the launch control issue which caused me not to buy it. BUT - have you driven one?

A. It feels like a busted chainsaw. You can hear clunking and clicking in the drivetrain because the parts are so massive and unrefined.

B. Have you looked at the Maintenance cost? Honda has never, nor will it ever allow the "everyday sports car" to cost so much to maintain. Don't quote me on the exact number, but if you drive your car 15K a year, the first year of scheduled maintenance on a GTR is 12-15 thousand dollars. Of which about 7K in brake service alone! YEP! can we all say WTF at the same time?

The reason why GTR isn't selling getter isn't the economy. If you don't trust me, go to a ferrari dealership and try to buy a new one. There is a LONG LONG LONG waiting list. The problem isn't if there are people out there with money to buy the car.. the problem is that people don't want the GTR because it is an unrefined beast of a machine.

The NSX was elegant, and truthfully the only reason they didn't sell well at the end was because they didn't want them to sell well. If they did, they would have enhanced the car, added power, have a new body at some point. They had / have a loyal following.. but why buy a 2005 if you have a 2002.. is the same damn car. Really the 1991 and 2005 were the same except for a SMALL change to the engine in 97, a targa top, and a tiny differences like headlights and rear deck spoiler... come on... they weren't even trying.

Like I said before, they didn't want to sell a bunch of them, it was just a halo car. Perhaps they think Acura is a solid enough car line now and doesn't need the halo anymore.. I for one hope that is not the case. But lets not fool ourselves, the bread and butter in auto manufacturing is in the econoboxes not the high end cars.

J

 

[Juice]

I sure wouldn't say "Acura is solid enough" after reading and watching these well publicized reviews -

http://reviews.cnet.com/sedan/2011-...-34548422.html?tag=contentMain;contentBody;1r

Wasn't the Acura mantra "digital luxury"? The RL is a rolling joke, and it is suposed to be their halo car. If you ask me, they need a NSX now more than ever. They need to look at what Lotus is attempting to do, ad be the actual ones to do it.

As for the images from MotorTrend, this is my favorite "iteration" of the next NSX. A gorgeous MR layout with jet fighter / Le Mans prototype undertones. If this were the next NSX, they would already have my money. But with Honda chasing down Super GT rules, we will never see another MR platform out of Japan. Sad, sad, sad. :frown:

 

[2slow2speed]

B. Have you looked at the Maintenance cost? Honda has never, nor will it ever allow the "everyday sports car" to cost so much to maintain. Don't quote me on the exact number, but if you drive your car 15K a year, the first year of scheduled maintenance on a GTR is 12-15 thousand dollars. Of which about 7K in brake service alone! YEP! can we all say WTF at the same time?

FYI: The maintainance cost for a GT-R is not 12-15 thousand dollars a year, the 7K brake service can be lowered substantially.

The brakes on the GT-R are real brakes, not the Mickey Mouse OEM brakes that are on the NSX. The OEM Brembo rotors do cost an arm and a leg when purchased from Nissan same goes with the pads as welll as the labor that Nissan would like to charge you. I can change my pads and rotors for a lot less than the often quoted 7K price. The rotors can be replaced with AP Racing's Jhooks for about $2400.00 and the pads can be replaced for about r $800.00.

The 20 inch run flat Bridgestone's are $1600.00 a set, there is no way around that because they are made specificallly for the GT-R so the volume is low.

Oil/Filter changes on the GT-R are in the $180.00 range.

Differential oil fluid changes on the GT-R can cost you $800.00, but that is only needed about every 2 years if you don't track your car.

There is a lot of misinformation that gets repeated over and over about the maintanance costs of the GT-R, most of it has been originated in the Porsche forums. The 2009-2011GT-R's have the same performance as a 997.1Turbo, so the maintainance costs will be similar. The cost for servicing the DCT transmission on the GT-R is high, but still better than the cost of servicing for a PDK transmission from Porsche (it is not serviceable at all, it is welded shut from the factory)

Everything else regarding the mechanical nature of the car with it's noises and and the relative harshness of the suspension of the GT-R I agree 100%.

The one important difference between how Honda treated the NSX and how Nissan is treating the GT-R currently is that the GT-R is getting updated every year in regards to handling and performance(frustrating in some way because Nissan USA does not sell the upgrade packages for the GT-R as they do in Japan) and they are committed to the R35 platform and the follow up R36 platform.

 

[captainjman]

FYI: The maintainance cost for a GT-R is not 12-15 thousand dollars a year, the 7K brake service can be lowered substantially.

The brakes on the GT-R are real brakes, not the Mickey Mouse OEM brakes that are on the NSX. The OEM Brembo rotors do cost an arm and a leg when purchased from Nissan same goes with the pads as welll as the labor that Nissan would like to charge you. I can change my pads and rotors for a lot less than the often quoted 7K price. The rotors can be replaced with AP Racing's Jhooks for about $2400.00 and the pads can be replaced for about r $800.00.

The 20 inch run flat Bridgestone's are $1600.00 a set, there is no way around that because they are made specificallly for the GT-R so the volume is low.

Oil/Filter changes on the GT-R are in the $180.00 range.

Differential oil fluid changes on the GT-R can cost you $800.00, but that is only needed about every 2 years if you don't track your car.

There is a lot of misinformation that gets repeated over and over about the maintanance costs of the GT-R, most of it has been originated in the Porsche forums. The 2009-2011GT-R's have the same performance as a 997.1Turbo, so the maintainance costs will be similar. The cost for servicing the DCT transmission on the GT-R is high, but still better than the cost of servicing for a PDK transmission from Porsche (it is not serviceable at all, it is welded shut from the factory)

Everything else regarding the mechanical nature of the car with it's noises and and the relative harshness of the suspension of the GT-R I agree 100%.

The one important difference between how Honda treated the NSX and how Nissan is treating the GT-R currently is that the GT-R is getting updated every year in regards to handling and performance(frustrating in some way because Nissan USA does not sell the upgrade packages for the GT-R as they do in Japan) and they are committed to the R35 platform and the follow up R36 platform.

I agree that there are alternatives to the full MSRP cost of MX on the brakes, but, it is 7k to service them according to Nissan! I mean, its not like anyone made that up.

18,000 mile mx is 2000 dollars at the dealership, and if you want to keep your warranty, trust me, you gotta do it! So, even though you dont really need to change that fluid for 800-1000 dollars, you got to if you want nissan to pay for any and all repairs down the road. And with a transmission costing 27,000 dollars or so, yeah... Im gonna need to pay for sched maintenance.

True, there is a law that states a company cannot force you to do mx at ONLY their shops, but god forbid something goes wrong.. I don't think you want to have that fight.

I am sure that there are guys out there who will say they can do the mx themselves for less, but if you went to the dealership, just the tires and brakes alone are nearly 10k, and all the other bs.. 12-15k NO PROBLEM.

I didn't get my info from porsche, I got it from
1. The nissan dealership by my home
2. First hand account from a guy at a car show who ones one
3. I read the posts on NAGTROC

But I will agree if you don't mind putting your warranty in jeopardy or happen to be a mechanic the cost of ownership will be less than that!

 

[2slow2speed]

I agree that there are alternatives to the full MSRP cost of MX on the brakes, but, it is 7k to service them according to Nissan! I mean, its not like anyone made that up.

18,000 mile mx is 2000 dollars at the dealership, and if you want to keep your warranty, trust me, you gotta do it! So, even though you dont really need to change that fluid for 800-1000 dollars, you got to if you want nissan to pay for any and all repairs down the road. And with a transmission costing 27,000 dollars or so, yeah... Im gonna need to pay for sched maintenance.

True, there is a law that states a company cannot force you to do mx at ONLY their shops, but god forbid something goes wrong.. I don't think you want to have that fight.

I am sure that there are guys out there who will say they can do the mx themselves for less, but if you went to the dealership, just the tires and brakes alone are nearly 10k, and all the other bs.. 12-15k NO PROBLEM.

I didn't get my info from porsche, I got it from
1. The nissan dealership by my home
2. First hand account from a guy at a car show who ones one
3. I read the posts on NAGTROC

But I will agree if you don't mind putting your warranty in jeopardy or happen to be a mechanic the cost of ownership will be less than that!

FWIW, the cost of replacing a set of steel rotors on a 997.2GT3 or a 997.2Turbo is about the same as the cost of replacing rotors on a GT-R because the rotors are very similar in design, 350mm floating hat design

How much do you think that the steel rotors on an Audi R8 cost, have you looked at the prices?

How much does a set of OEM tires cost for a C6Z06? $1680.00.

The GT-R is an AWD 3900lb car that has a Turbo, so the cost of maintainance will be high, there is no way around that, most sane people would service the car themselves and keep records or find an independent shop and keep records.

Anything related to the tranny can go back to the dealer if you are so concerned about the $27,000.00 tranny that can actually be opened up and repaired by knowledgeable folks.

 

[captainjman]

FWIW, the cost of replacing a set of steel rotors on a 997.2GT3 or a 997.2Turbo is about the same as the cost of replacing rotors on a GT-R because the rotors are very similar in design, 350mm floating hat design

How much do you think that the steel rotors on an Audi R8 cost, have you looked at the prices?

How much does a set of OEM tires cost for a C6Z06? $1680.00.

The GT-R is an AWD 3900lb car that has a Turbo, so the cost of maintainance will be high, there is no way around that, most sane people would service the car themselves and keep records or find an independent shop and keep records.

Anything related to the tranny can go back to the dealer if you are so concerned about the $27,000.00 tranny that can actually be opened up and repaired by knowledgeable folks.

Hey, Im not arguing with you here - Im just saying it isnt cheap! Im the one who mentioned how much it costs to maintain in the first place! LOL

I would love to do the MX myself, but I live in a condo, and HOA rules specify that working on a car is a no-no. The fines would quickly add up to more than the cost of having the dealership do it.

Also, tools. I may be able to figure it out, but I dont have the tools. So for an average joe who doesn't have all the tools, and might have an HOA problem, and has very little free time between work and kids....

What I am getting at is that a lot of people are in my boat, and that high cost of ownership is a reason not to buy the car in itself. And that is really where the NSX rules! That, and the fact its sexy!

The NSX was designed from day one to be an everyday sports car with low MX costs. Thats all I am saying. If I had the money for a GTR I would buy one, despite all its pitfalls (chainsaw, MX cost), but I don't.

We were comparing GTR, R8, LFA to NSX.. All I am saying is that the NSX will not follow the LFA pricing, the GTR's MX schedule and will most likely be close to the R8 - only cheaper.