Helmet question

[CL65 Captain]

I have been borrowing a friends helmet for track events and am now looking to purchase my own. I think I would like to get an open face helmet vs full. I am looking at a Zamp J-1 (helmetcity.com) which is Snell SA2005 rated.

Do some HPDE requiere full helmets or doesn't matter as long as its SA2005? I am wondering if I should just get a full helmet so that I don't run into an event which excludes the open face.

 

[the nsxnut]

Typically, the only time full-face is necessary is in open cars. As long as you're in a car with a windshield, open face should be fine. Especially if you are using a street car equipped with airbags (a good thing).

 

[nsxnut]

Do some HPDE requiere full helmets or doesn't matter as long as its SA2005? I am wondering if I should just get a full helmet so that I don't run into an event which excludes the open face.

What the other nut said "mark" is true. You don't need a full face helmet inless you ride with open cars.

I prefer a full face hemet though.

More protection, I can ride along/drive in any car.

Down side. They are hotter.

I am an instructor and I ride along with so many drivers. I prefer a full face helmet. Ok there is nothing like a ride in a radical or a super 7.

Later,
Don

 

[the nsxnut]

well, (off topic), check it out... I think that's the first time Don and I have ended up posted together! note the 'born on' date... Don was first with that screen name!

 

[MLmotorsport]

I just switched from my open-face Bell to the Force Hybrid. I like the open face for driving but I've heard enough "if I hadn't had a full face helmet - I'd no longer have a face" horror stories. In my search I ran across this one. As a bonus it's pretty cheap! I figured if I didn't like it I'd just use it for passengers - but I like it.

 

[nsxnut]

My helmet is getting tired... Ok smelly and warn out.
I am thinking of getting the bell m4 pro with a fan

http://www.bellracing.com/productdetail.asp?sec=product&catid=3&prodid=10

I believe I can order it with a blower in the helmet. additional ~150. Not sure I want to pay for this, have no idea how well this works.

I can't find any info on bell's site about the fan. I think they call this the force option?

Later,
Don

 

[the nsxnut]

Air bags are a consideration. If you track your car, and retain the stock wheel, you benefit from the crash protection of the airbag. You get GREATER benefit if you are using an open face helmet. Assume you are a normal sized adult, in a normal seating position. In an incident with air bag deployment, if you are using a full face helmet, the helmet may be forced to strike your jaw/chin. With open faced, there is nothing between your face and the airbag (a good thing). On the other hand, if you're using a custom wheel/hub w/no airbag, then a full face will give greater protection, in the hypothetical worst-case scenario.

Under any circumstances, full harnesses and head-and-neck restraint are also fundamental safety steps.

 

[nsxnut]

Air bags are a consideration. If you track your car, and retain the stock wheel, you benefit from the crash protection of the airbag. You get GREATER benefit if you are using an open face helmet. Assume you are a normal sized adult, in a normal seating position. In an incident with air bag deployment, if you are using a full face helmet, the helmet may be forced to strike your jaw/chin. With open faced, there is nothing between your face and the airbag (a good thing). On the other hand, if you're using a custom wheel/hub w/no airbag, then a full face will give greater protection, in the hypothetical worst-case scenario.

Under any circumstances, full harnesses and head-and-neck restraint are also fundamental safety steps.

I still have the stock stearing wheel/ "air bag". I also have the comptech
rollbar and 5 point harnesses. I have fairly long legs and my seat is almost all the way back. Once lashed in I cant move forward.

With my setup is there a problem with a full face helmet?

Thanks,
Don

 

[92 white 0650]

Re: Don, you're hopeless

I believe I can order it with a blower in the helmet

Sheeeesh, you "Tool Time" kind of guys can't do anything "normally aspirated", can you? How many HP does your hair dryer have?

 

[Hrant]

I have read and am aware of the impact of air bags on helmets but here is what I fail to understand.

If the impact of the air bag is so hard that it can shatter the full helmet's lower part, then how come a similar impact on one's face not create equal if not more severe damage to the jaw/teeth and skin?

If the impact of the air bag on the helmet is movement of the head in the helmet and thus bouncing the jaw on the helmet, then that is an indication of improper helmet size and/or not secured enough.

Appreciate input from those who really know what the underlying dynamics are for open face helmet recoomendation with air bags. TIA.

 

[the nsxnut]

... Appreciate input from those who really know what the underlying dynamics are for open face helmet recoomendation with air bags. TIA.

Well, I'm not speculating or making assumptions.

As a certified HANS technician, I've had days of training on helmets, cockpit safety, and head and neck restraints (all of them, not just HANS). I've studied the results of bio-mechanical testing on crash-test dummies, and numerous de-briefs from on track incidents. Anyone can feel free to adopt or ignore these findings, but don't assume that they're not valid. Go ahead and spend hours doing online research, or just save yourself the time and review this summary.
Air bags are compliant and fully crushable, the interior of your helmet will crush only slightly. The risk of injury in that scenario is that your face may strike the interior of the helmet, not that the helmet would fail. This does emphasize the critical importance of proper fit. Unfortunately, the ideal, safest fit is rarely available in $200 helmets. One must spend big money for the real deal (Sparco, Arai, Bieffe, Stand 21, Schuberth) That being said, helmet fit is certainly a very important consideration.

The absolute safest possible cockpit configuration is a full-cage, fixed race seat, 6 point harnesses, full face helmet, and HANS device, and no air bag. But, that's not practical for many enthusiasts that track thier high-performance street cars.

So, simply weigh out what your own cockpit is like, and what your safety equipment is, and do your own due diligence. The above is some useful information for those that are interested.

 

[Hrant]

Mark, I am not sure why you took my post as personal since it was not specifically addressed to you, and I am sure the rest of Primers like me, are not necessarily aware of your certification or credentials or training ........ but then again, you just confirmed what I speculated using simple common sense analytical thinking! And I quote:

Air bags are compliant and fully crushable, the interior of your helmet will crush only slightly. The risk of injury in that scenario is that your face may strike the interior of the helmet, not that the helmet would fail. This does emphasize the critical importance of proper fit. Underline emphasis added

Exactly. You want the helmet to absorb the impact and dissipate it with crushing to presumably disburse the impact. Per your post, it's the fit that is the issue and not the fact that the air bag hits the helmet and thus crushes the helmet. Right?

FWIW, mine is a Shoei and I am in the market for a new one, open enough for eyeglasses and Nomex of course. Unfortunately Shoei hasn't released one for cars with Nomex.

YMMV.

 

[the nsxnut]

OK, Hrant, cool.

The issue of fit is, indeed, exactly the issue. If you have a perfectly fitted full-face helmet, there may be no issue if you face an air-bag deployment. You're correct that a well-fitted helmet won't allow your head to move inside it to the extent that your chin would strike the lower part. Here's the thing... among the amateur enthusiast community, most of us are using helmets that are not properly fitted. USA standard S-M-L-XL are no where near the kind of precise fit necessary to provide maximum safety. Euro/Asian high-end manufacturers offer helmets that are sized like shoes, with small steps between sizes, with a range of 10-12 sizes, where inexpensive helmets have a range of 4. Let's be candid, makers like Impact, Bell, Simpson, G-Force are much more common at track events. So, many drivers using a full-face helmet with marginal fit, in a car that is air-bag equipped, might be at risk.

The solution is, not to abandon your airbag, but upgrade your helmet. If you're driving a street car, the airbag can be a lifesaver...

Unless you're in competition, it may not be necessary to emphasize nomex (SA rating). An excellent SNELL M rated helmet is more than adequate.

 

[92 white 0650]

Re: Harness/HANS question

Mark, here's a typical instructor issue at a track day. What do you tell the casual track guy who is so proud of his 5 or 6 point harness but doesn't wear a HANS or similar? On the one hand, he's obviously at much greater risk of basal skull fracture than keeping the stock 3 point and air bag right? OTOH, BSF is not the only danger, so the 5 or 6 point is safer than the stock 3 point in other ways.

I'm most concerned about students tall enough that they sit back from steering wheel (air bag). I mention the greater BSF risk, implying the HANS (or similar) is an absolute must with a full harness and they should seriously consider staying with the stock 3 point/air bag until they're ready to spend the extra grand. Which side of the question do you land on?

 

[the nsxnut]

Discussion continues in this thread

To finalize this thread, regarding the question from CL65...
You're fine with open face, as long as you're in a closed cockpit. Make sure you get a great fitting helmet.