I have decided that I need to persue some heel & toe practice. Can anyone here recommend a good shcool or maybe someone in the KC area that would be willing to mentor? My coordination sucks so whoever would need to be patient.
TIA
TIA
Heel & toe
- Thread starter MarkB
- Start date
When you gonna come back out west here, cowboy?
Do they get to demonstrate in your car?.
The line is forming as we speak !!
Do they get to demonstrate in your car?.
The line is forming as we speak !!
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The NSX is one of the few cars that I can H&T WITHOUT having to install pedal covers. Mark I wish you would have asked when you were at RA, I could have had you learn during the off-track time on the in-field roads!
It's a little difficult but not impossible. Especially with some aftermarket pedals. I've found the Mugen's are pretty good - large and with a rough surface.
It takes time, patience, and practice. I found it best to let someone show me how to do it and then spend an hour or two a week perfecting it. That said, I'm still no pro. I always seem to over rev it a bit. A driving school would definitely help. Stephens Bros. have a good reputation and are located in Tulsa - home track Hallett.
Once you graduate from H&T, it's on to left foot braking.
It takes time, patience, and practice. I found it best to let someone show me how to do it and then spend an hour or two a week perfecting it. That said, I'm still no pro. I always seem to over rev it a bit. A driving school would definitely help. Stephens Bros. have a good reputation and are located in Tulsa - home track Hallett.
Once you graduate from H&T, it's on to left foot braking.
Do they have regular classes?Ponyboy said:
Ponyboy said:Once you graduate from H&T, it's on to left foot braking.
BTW, I will be at Hallet this weekend. Are you planning to be there?
If that's what it takes.....92 white 0650 said:
apapada said:
Alex,
You have no problem because you have MOMO aftermarket pedals!
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coordination= timing, not the pedals?
If I read the post right, it's about the timing of the blip, not a problem with getting to the gas pedal, right? If that's the case, it's just practice and observing someone doing it right. However, if by coordination, you mean physically rolling your foot over onto the gas, then some good pedal extensions go a long way to fixing that. Shop around, there's a variety of sizes.
As noted above, the tendancy is to over-rev. I think that comes from trying to hurry the process. Skip Barber's manual "Going Faster" explains the mechanics pretty well. If you understand it, and ride a couple of sessions with someone who does it well, you can teach/practice yourself. With all the time you spend in the car, it shouldn't take more than a week or two and you'll be "dancin".
If I read the post right, it's about the timing of the blip, not a problem with getting to the gas pedal, right? If that's the case, it's just practice and observing someone doing it right. However, if by coordination, you mean physically rolling your foot over onto the gas, then some good pedal extensions go a long way to fixing that. Shop around, there's a variety of sizes.
As noted above, the tendancy is to over-rev. I think that comes from trying to hurry the process. Skip Barber's manual "Going Faster" explains the mechanics pretty well. If you understand it, and ride a couple of sessions with someone who does it well, you can teach/practice yourself. With all the time you spend in the car, it shouldn't take more than a week or two and you'll be "dancin".
MarkB said:
Hi Mark,
You might try watching some of the BM videos, some of the footage actually includes multiple cameras and one of them usually is the footwell location so that you can observe the way that various folks perform heel and toe downshifting, you can probably slow down the footage so that you can watch the actual technique.
Once you think that you have the mechanics down, then try performing the motion with the car parked and with the engine off, that will give you a feel on how the motion should feel.
The next step would be to simply start doing heel and toe downshifting on a road that is empty or even a parking lot at low speeds You won't be using maximum braking as you would do at the track but the mechanics should be the same.
Once you become comfortable, start doing it while coming to a stop at the street, just come down multiple gears, for example 4th, to 3rd to 2nd and then to neutral, on the street.
Once you get comfortable with it at the street you can try incorportaing it at the track while running with a slower run group than usual, that way you won't be focusing too much on going fast but to simply work on your technique.
It will take a bit of practice to get the timing right, and it's a lot easier to learn while you are not going too fast.
Another factor for heel and toe downshifting will be getting used to the differences in pedal travel, as you probably noticed once you changed to a BBK the pedal travel should have been reduced significantly when running full pads, this will change as the pads wear down as such you will need to adjust, but that becomes 2nd nature once you get the mechanics down. Just like everything else it's just about practice and muscle memory.
Good luck!
Ken
BTW: The pedals on the NSX are perfect for H&T, not really sure why some folks don't think so
Oh yeah and Mark once you master H&T, you will not only use it in your NSX ON the track, but in every single manual car/truck that you drive and everywhere you drive it. It saves on tranny and clutch wear.
Plus it sounds cool!
Plus it sounds cool!
One thing which can make the H&T much easier is getting the pedal height adjusted so when the brakes are engaged the pedal is at the height of the throttle pedal. I have after market pedals which came on my car, plus the pedal height has been matched so when I am in a hard brake situation with pressure on the inside ball of my foot, along the big toe, I can just roll my foot to the right and hit the throttle. With some practice I can rev match pretty easily. I can also do a bit of trail braking with this set up by rolling my foot onto the throttle while I am rolling off the brake pedal. I am still not sensitive enough to do much left foot braking, except on sweeping turns where a shift is not involved. The clutch to brake transition with the left foot is hard, especially with a PowerGrip clutch, bit like a 200lb. leg press then try to press on an egg with out breaking it.
Have an experinced NSX driver check out your pedals and see if an adjustment can be made to make this easier for you. Correctly set, the NSX is the easiest H&T car I have ever driven.
Have an experinced NSX driver check out your pedals and see if an adjustment can be made to make this easier for you. Correctly set, the NSX is the easiest H&T car I have ever driven.
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MarkB said:
Yes, they do. You'll want to check their website. www.hallettracing.com
MarkB said:
No worries. It's something Schumacher does all the time. It just lets you transition from brakes to gas quicker.
MarkB said:
Unfortunately, no. I'm waiting on a few tuning sessions to get the car in tip top shape (engine tune up, dyno, and corner balance). If you're interested, my group is running a private track day on Sept. 21. I'd be happy to come out and meet you though.
Private Track Day
Mark you have pm.
-x-
-x-
Heel and toe is tough in nsx??
Try do that in an Audi with those throttle by wire thingie...
I had no problem doing heel and toe in the nsx... and I do that in street & track. however, when you are on the track the heel and toe is a lot more natural, since you tend to brake deeper than when you were street driving, so you don't really need to twist your foot that much...
Try do that in an Audi with those throttle by wire thingie...
I had no problem doing heel and toe in the nsx... and I do that in street & track. however, when you are on the track the heel and toe is a lot more natural, since you tend to brake deeper than when you were street driving, so you don't really need to twist your foot that much...
Re: coordination= timing, not the pedals?
One of the biggest problems with Heel and Toe downshifting is smooth brake application. It is crucial to maintain a constant pressure on the brakes so that the balance of the car is not upset. After all, that is why you blip the throttle: to match revs during the downshift and maintain balance. Be sure that when your heel (or side of your foot, techniques vary from person to person) you don't accidentally increase the pressure on the brake pedal.
I practice this constantly, on practically every downshift. One way to ensure good technique is to practice with passengers in the car. If they can feel it, you need more work!
92 white 0650 said:
One of the biggest problems with Heel and Toe downshifting is smooth brake application. It is crucial to maintain a constant pressure on the brakes so that the balance of the car is not upset. After all, that is why you blip the throttle: to match revs during the downshift and maintain balance. Be sure that when your heel (or side of your foot, techniques vary from person to person) you don't accidentally increase the pressure on the brake pedal.
I practice this constantly, on practically every downshift. One way to ensure good technique is to practice with passengers in the car. If they can feel it, you need more work!
Mark, perfecting this technique should really help your laptimes. It is absolutely critical in order to hang with the big boys.
DONYMO said:Alex,
You have no problem because you have MOMO aftermarket pedals!
The less expensive (under $30) Momo pedals are cast aluminum with ribbing for grip, they come powder coated in various colors, and have a reverse “L” shaped gas pedal. Remove the OE rubber pads from the stock pedals, and use the Momo replacements to mark for mounting holes. The new pedals allow you to justify any of the three pedals in any direction that fits your comfort. If you one day decide to sell the car, they can be removed and the holes will be covered by the OE rubber.
Learning heel toe is about matching revs for a smoother transition that won’t disrupt the flow of you or your car. Until this technique becomes fluid and natural, it could interfere with your braking, your shifting, your timing, or most important your concentration. I would suggest practicing in your daily driver until it becomes natural… like using the clutch. Your lap times wont improve until your comfortable with it. When I first started I would only use it on double apex turns where it was most important, because braking for the second apex is usually not straight and a place where you need to brake and downshift. If you’re already at the edge of adhesion with your tires the downshift will disrupt the rear tires if the revs aren’t matched. disruption in even a slight turn will put you in a spin.
You probably knew all this, but I find I learn faster if I also know why it works better in an actual scenario.
Excellent illustration of the art of heel-toe'ing !95NSXT said:take a look at this
...agreed, an advantage over drivers not proficient at it...its like learning the proper "technique" in typing as oppose to typing using your index fingers (*cough*me*) ...it slows you down at first, but once you've mastered it you'll be much faster than you could be not employing it
Heel and Toe
I was helping a friend with this in my car the other day and remembered how much easier it is for me if I keep my heels off the floor. I run my seat a bit farther forward than I do on the street, more bend to my knees, and it helps me keep my heels up which puts my right foot in the correct postion to roll it over on the throttle. That is what I learned from the first DE instructor.
I was helping a friend with this in my car the other day and remembered how much easier it is for me if I keep my heels off the floor. I run my seat a bit farther forward than I do on the street, more bend to my knees, and it helps me keep my heels up which puts my right foot in the correct postion to roll it over on the throttle. That is what I learned from the first DE instructor.
Head to the sports complex Mark, open roads and saftey from others when not at the track.
And for goodness sake. I just looked at your home page, do you think you could update your "past track events attended list" you slacker. Been driving around the country so much, haven't had time to update it . My tt is arriving tomorrow, hope to see ya soon.
And for goodness sake. I just looked at your home page, do you think you could update your "past track events attended list" you slacker. Been driving around the country so much, haven't had time to update it
. My tt is arriving tomorrow, hope to see ya soon.
No sleep for Tom tonight.Tom Larkins said:
Re: Heel and Toe
Ditto
titaniumdave said:
Ditto
