Hawp HPS pads + slotted drilled rotors + ss lines = poor braking???

[coldhammer]

I just did a brake upgrade. I used some slotted / drilled rotors from 88 rotors along with hawk hps ceramic pads and sos stainless steel lines.

After all is said and done the braking performance in horrible. The system has been bled twice and the pedal feel is good but the car just doesn't stop like the oem setup did. I would have thought i would have much better braking performance with the new setup.

Any one have any ideas or comments?

 

[CL65 Captain]

There are two different pads... are you using the HPS or the Ceramic? They are different.

The HPS are a Ferro-Compound. They also have a Performance Ceramic pad. The HPS are geared more toward street performance, the later are more luxury car low noise, low dust. If you went with the later, then yea they are probably worse than OEM. If you aren't tracking the car then the OEMs are hard to beat on the street.

I run the HP+ which is a street/track pad. They dust, but they also stop and minimal squealing (once in a while and not bad at all).

 

[ACCD]

I just did a brake upgrade. I used some slotted / drilled rotors from 88 rotors along with hawk hps ceramic pads and sos stainless steel lines.

After all is said and done the braking performance in horrible. The system has been bled twice and the pedal feel is good but the car just doesn't stop like the oem setup did. I would have thought i would have much better braking performance with the new setup.

Any one have any ideas or comments?

Most if not all peformance pads are designed to opperate at peak when the temp rises.. therefore you avoid fade. Even stock semi-met street pads need to get up to opperating temp to perform. Another "thing" you will see is as you coat or glaze the rotors with friction compound from the new pads you'll start to get better and better performance. Bottom line, performance pads are designed to opperate at high temp...

good luck.

ACD

 

[Ponyboy]

Have you properly bed'ed the pads or clean the rotor surfaces first?

 

[coldhammer]

the pads are the hps (fero-carbon).

bed'ed the pads or clean the rotor surfaces first

Not sure what you mean here. Can you explain?

Bottom line, performance pads are designed to opperate at high temp...

Even after 4 hours of mountain driving yesterday they still never really grabbed very hard.

 

[Ponyboy]

Not sure what you mean here. Can you explain?

Sure, no problem. Many times new rotors are coated with a rust inhibitor/anti-corrision from the manufacturer. Spray some brake cleaner on there and then wipe off. If you don't get it off, the rust inhibitor will contimant your brake pads and decrease your coefficient of friction.

TireRack has a good bed-in procedure listed on their web site.

Hope it helps!

 

[coldhammer]

Oh i see what your talking about. Didn't know the correct term for the process but yes I did all that.

 

[RON98]

I just did a brake upgrade. I used some slotted / drilled rotors from 88 rotors along with hawk hps ceramic pads and sos stainless steel lines.

After all is said and done the braking performance in horrible. The system has been bled twice and the pedal feel is good but the car just doesn't stop like the oem setup did. I would have thought i would have much better braking performance with the new setup.

Any one have any ideas or comments?

gota give the pads 500 miles to mate to the new rotors.

also did you spray the rotors with brake cleaner to remove the oil coating that comes with the rotors to keep it from rusting?

um..is the stoping power just sub par? or is the peddle feel spongy?

these are two different problems.

if the pedal is spongy, you got air in the system.

if the stoping distance is subpar with a firm pedal, the problem is cheap pads.

usually with the rotor+pad "packages" they are trying to keep the cost down so they give you the cheapest chinese cardboard inmitation brake pads every concieved by man.

try a new set of pads.:wink:

btw cant really romp on the pads the day you put them in, the rotors need to heat cycle first and mate to the pad.

there are many opinions on how this is done. after doing a customer's nsx brake job, i usually take it on the highway and cycle and mate the pads to the rotors before i give the car to the customer so they dont have to worry too much about it.

its a series of progressively agressive 80-40 mpg quick stops with extended periods in between to allow rotor to cool.

happy motoring.

 

[thouchin]

gota give the pads 500 miles to mate to the new rotors.

Huh? 500 miles is rediculous. Do you realise how many law suits there would be against brake manufacturers if it took 500 miles for the brakes to really start working?

T.J.

 

[RON98]

Huh? 500 miles is rediculous. Do you realise how many law suits there would be against brake manufacturers if it took 500 miles for the brakes to really start working?

T.J.

lol not to start working.

500 miles to mate the surface and for pads and rotors to season / out gas / blah blah blah :biggrin:

its better for the rotors to gradually heat cycle than to get taken to the canyons the second they are installed.

with that said, the brakes should stop regardless.

the issue is in the brake system but rather the pads.

 

[coldhammer]

the braking is sub par. The car stops. The pedal is firm. It just doesn't stop as fast as it did with the oem setup.

Perhaps I need to drive the car some more to let the pads get worn in really well. But I have put about 200 miles on the pads already.

There not cheap pads as I bought the pads from sos hawk hps.

I may try and put the oem rotors back on and see how that feels.

 

[ACCD]

the braking is sub par. The car stops. The pedal is firm. It just doesn't stop as fast as it did with the oem setup.

Perhaps I need to drive the car some more to let the pads get worn in really well. But I have put about 200 miles on the pads already.

There not cheap pads as I bought the pads from sos hawk hps.

I may try and put the oem rotors back on and see how that feels.

I'm tell'n ya, if they are "hi performance pads" they will NEVER work cold... or work well untill they get very hot...

That's the way they were engineered. I spent 14 years with the largest supplier of OE and aftermarket friction...

so, it's your choice,, decide on how you use the car and apply aftermarket parts appropriately, don't buy track parts for the street....

ACD

 

[thouchin]

Take them out and get them hot, then tell us how they work.

Do not put the old rotors back on unless you talk to Hawk first and ask them how their pads will react with your old pads. The old pad material is still on your old rotors. Using a different brand pad on those rotors could cause uneven deposits of pad material to form on the rotors and cause them to feel like they are warped.

I recommend that you do not take my word or anyone elses word on this forum until you know them long enough to trust them. There is a butt load of mis information here. Do the research and learn.

NSXTASY gives a good link in this post...
http://www.nsxprime.com/forums/showthread.php?t=91138

T.J.

 

[coldhammer]

I'm tell'n ya, if they are "hi performance pads" they will NEVER work cold... or work well untill they get very hot...

4 hours of continous hard braking in the mountains was more than sufficient to heat the pads up. While there was an increase in stopping ability they still did not perform as well as the oem setup did.

don't buy track parts for the street.

The hawk pads i bought are not for track use and are listed as street use.

Using a different brand pad on those rotors could cause uneven deposits of pad material to form on the rotors and cause them to feel like they are warped.

This is not an issue if you resurface the rotors when switching to a different pad like your supposed too.

 

[RON98]

the braking is sub par. The car stops. The pedal is firm. It just doesn't stop as fast as it did with the oem setup.

Perhaps I need to drive the car some more to let the pads get worn in really well. But I have put about 200 miles on the pads already.

There not cheap pads as I bought the pads from sos hawk hps.

I may try and put the oem rotors back on and see how that feels.

Firm peddle preasure = brake system is good
Pad is in correct heat range = should have good braking

only left posibility.

TOOOoooooOOOOoooo MANY drilled holes, not enough surface area

dont forget, the way a braking system works is .... kenetic energy --(pad on rotor-surface area)--> heat ---> air

FANCY SMACNY DANCY WANCY ebay rotors... how many holes can you fit on a rotor? ..... wait wait! we forgot the SLOTS.....we need SLOTS! more slots! more performance!!! :biggrin: :biggrin: :biggrin:

IM A GENIOUS!

 

[coldhammer]

well cant say anything about the number of holes being significant enough to reduce surface area friction. But regardless these rotors have very few holes on them.

Could the rotor some how become glazed and is too slick for the pads to really bite into?

 

[thouchin]

Can we back up a bit. When you say "car doesn't stop as fast as it did with the OEM setup" do you mean that it locks the fronts too soon?

Did you do anything to the rear brakes? You went to a more agressive pad on the fronts and a bigger rotor on the front.

If you didn't change the rears then my guess is that you notice more bite with less pedal pressure. But then the fronts lock up sooner than you expect and therefore you get less overall braking.

If so, you have change the brake bias to be more toward the front. This means the rear brakes are not doing as much work any longer and therefore you have less total braking. The bias has changed is a fact, the unknown is wether it changed enough to make you feel what you are feeling.

 

[RON98]

well cant say anything about the number of holes being significant enough to reduce surface area friction. But regardless these rotors have very few holes on them.

Could the rotor some how become glazed and is too slick for the pads to really bite into?

did you spray the rotors with brake cleaner?
they come oiled up.. but it should have burnt off by now.

the slots should provide the bite and its the pads that glaze over and the slots clears it off.

hum.

 

[RON98]

Can we back up a bit. When you say "car doesn't stop as fast as it did with the OEM setup" do you mean that it locks the fronts too soon?

Did you do anything to the rear brakes? You went to a more agressive pad on the fronts and a bigger rotor on the front.

If you didn't change the rears then my guess is that you notice more bite with less pedal pressure. But then the fronts lock up sooner than you expect and therefore you get less overall braking.

If so, you have change the brake bias to be more toward the front. This means the rear brakes are not doing as much work any longer and therefore you have less total braking. The bias has changed is a fact, the unknown is wether it changed enough to make you feel what you are feeling.

the rear brakes does nothing... well 10-15% of the braking. its the front wheels that does all the braking. The rotors are the same size as stock.

when the front locks up, it no longer becomes a braking issue as a tire issue. in that case your brakes is sized too big for the tires and if you want more braking power, you need more contact patch in the front thus bigger tires... dont think that is his problem right now.

 

[ACCD]

the rear brakes does nothing... well 10-15% of the braking. its the front wheels that does all the braking. The rotors are the same size as stock.

when the front locks up, it no longer becomes a braking issue as a tire issue. in that case your brakes is sized too big for the tires and if you want more braking power, you need more contact patch in the front thus bigger tires... dont think that is his problem right now.

this is getting more fun then a ping-pong game.

Actually, since the NSX isn't front wheel drive, with no CV-joints etc.. I would suspect that the brake bias is closer to 60-40..

With disc brakes all the way around, I'm wondering if this isn't a balance issue considering the previous notes from this thread..

Is the NSX a dual diagnol system?

ACD

 

[coldhammer]

Can we back up a bit. When you say "car doesn't stop as fast as it did with the OEM setup" do you mean that it locks the fronts too soon?

It doesn't lock up at all. It feels as if the rotors are just sliding through the pads until eventually the car comes to a stop.

Did you do anything to the rear brakes?

I replaced pads and rotors on front and rear

 

[RON98]

this is getting more fun then a ping-pong game.

Actually, since the NSX isn't front wheel drive, with no CV-joints etc.. I would suspect that the brake bias is closer to 60-40..

With disc brakes all the way around, I'm wondering if this isn't a balance issue considering the previous notes from this thread..

Is the NSX a dual diagnol system?

ACD

its not a ping pong game, we are trying to remove posibilties as to why his brakes are not working as well till we end up with one factor.. hopefully

what does cv joints have to do about weight transfer

since when did nsx have soild rear drive axles? nsx has constant velocity joints in the rear.

when you brake the weight of the car transfers to the front ... does your car stay perfectly flat when you brake hard or does it dip in the front?

it dips, thus weight transfer and the front brakes does 80-85% of the braking.

maybe a little less with a mid engine but regardless, this is not the issue of his braking problem.

all cars are required to have X redundent braking systems since the mid 70s. the reason is since the front does 80-90% of the braking if you lose the front brakes your done for.

a)if your peddle is firm, its most likely not your braking system.

b)if your pads are good like you said, then its probably your rotors.

c)i highly doubt the rotors so i would suggest you try new pads.

there are only those 3 likely posibilities, your not losing braking power because you o2 sensor is going bad or your low on engine oil.

i think we are going back and forth now. try new brake pads, they might have sent you the wrong ones, even if they didnt, try new pads.

im done until new info comes to light:biggrin:

 

[thouchin]

Well we are not getting very far, are we?

If you can, tell us exactly what you feel in measurable terms... such as...

'If I push the brake pedal with the same pressure as I did with the stock setup, the new brakes take a longer distance to stop.'

Is this a true statement?

 

[ACCD]

its not a ping pong game, we are trying to remove posibilties as to why his brakes are not working as well till we end up with one factor.. hopefully

what does cv joints have to do about weight transfer

since when did nsx have soild rear drive axles? nsx has constant velocity joints in the rear.

when you brake the weight of the car transfers to the front ... does your car stay perfectly flat when you brake hard or does it dip in the front?

it dips, thus weight transfer and the front brakes does 80-85% of the braking.

maybe a little less with a mid engine but regardless, this is not the issue of his braking problem.

all cars are required to have X redundent braking systems since the mid 70s. the reason is since the front does 80-90% of the braking if you lose the front brakes your done for.

a)if your peddle is firm, its most likely not your braking system.

b)if your pads are good like you said, then its probably your rotors.

c)i highly doubt the rotors so i would suggest you try new pads.

there are only those 3 likely posibilities, your not losing braking power because you o2 sensor is going bad or your low on engine oil.

i think we are going back and forth now. try new brake pads, they might have sent you the wrong ones, even if they didnt, try new pads.

im done until new info comes to light:biggrin:

Obviously, you're missing the point.. there isn't that much Front-bias. The 80% rule applies to front wheel drive vehicles with rotating mass..and a heavy weight bias over the front, hence , that's why front wheel drive cars go through front brakes so quickly.. Also most front wheel drive cars have shoes on the rear presenting another balance issue. ( again necessitating the need for a combo valve) There isn't nearly enough mass transfer onto the front to warrant the bias indicated. Especially with a mid engine car. Disc/Disc and even Disc/Drum on rear drive cars still cary about a 60%/40% split. ( and actually it was 1968 when the split system became mandatory) The rotors probably, at this juncture, aren't the culprit...The only thing a firm pedal is going to tell you is that you've got a sealed hydraulic system and that your pads aren't gassing or your calipers haven’t' gone into "vapor" lock,, ie boiling the fluid..

PS.. I don't think anyone said the NSX has a solid/straight axle in the rear

So,, if the feel of the car isn't what the drive "likes" then I'd swap pads.. it's not that hard of a job....


AC

 

[ACCD]

Just for grins,, you still have rear braking ability don't you..? On pre ABS systems there is a pressure differential shuttle in the combo valve.. it's a safety feature if you lose pressure on one side it isolates the other half of the system... If you're using good friction, which I think you are and a decent rotor (I'm not familiar with yours), then I'm wondering if there is a valving issue. I was going to say check your hoses, but you replaced these correct?

AC