Has anyone raced against a BMW M3 E92?

CB72 · 4 August 2016

I recently raced against a 420 HP BMW M3.
The car is quite amazing as despite a weight of 1600 kg it pulled away from my LoveFab NSX...
http://www.nsxprime.com/forum/showthread.php/197056-NSX-LoveFab-at-Haute-Saintonge-in-France
Since then I looked at the car's specification: it's really amazing!
4 Liter capacity, V8 engine capable of 8300 rpm with technology that any NSX owner would love to have today.
Here's a french article that describes it for you:
http://www.automobile-sportive.com/technique/bmw-v8-s65.php

Hapa88 · 4 August 2016

Are you sure that M3 wasn't modified with something like a supercharger? It past you like you were standing still. Then on the straight it just run away from you.
Bolt on E92 Supercharger kits make around 600-700 hp.

CB72 · 5 August 2016

Hapa88 said:
Are you sure that M3 wasn't modified with something like a supercharger? It past you like you were standing still. Then on the straight it just run away from you.
Bolt on E92 Supercharger kits make around 600-700 hp.

No, the guy said he had a std engine but the car had been lightened and he was running P Zero Corsa Tropheo's.
He also new the track far better than I did and last but not least I believe my car needs a tune...
In any case Car and Driver said a lot of good about the car:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RaYKSd6q6ps

JMChristopher · 5 August 2016

You have better rod bearings though.

Jinks · 6 August 2016

I watch a lot of track nsx videos. I have not tracked my own car yet, but in every video I have seen, the nsx even highly modified usually gets slain in the straights by modern engineering. In my opinion the car is awesome in corners but lacks the main component for racing... POWER and a modern transmission. Just my opinion. But I love the drive, looks, and finish of the car. Even if it is slower than most. I remember racing a 2013 bmw M5 series in my nsx before I boosted it. It was like the tortoise vs the hair race until turns... The car is old tech. You can strap a huge turbo on it, but everything else is outdated. Just enjoy the car. Embrace that it is slow, save your money, buy a faster car, and keep the nsx. Just my two cents, peace....

CB72 · 12 August 2016

Jinks said:
I watch a lot of track nsx videos. I have not tracked my own car yet, but in every video I have seen, the nsx even highly modified usually gets slain in the straights by modern engineering. In my opinion the car is awesome in corners but lacks the main component for racing... POWER and a modern transmission. Just my opinion. But I love the drive, looks, and finish of the car. Even if it is slower than most. I remember racing a 2013 bmw M5 series in my nsx before I boosted it. It was like the tortoise vs the hair race until turns... The car is old tech. You can strap a huge turbo on it, but everything else is outdated. Just enjoy the car. Embrace that it is slow, save your money, buy a faster car, and keep the nsx. Just my two cents, peace....

I believe you are right, the car is a bit obsolete compared to today's standards.
I recently drove the new Civic Type R ( Is it sold in the USA?) and without even trying it was definitely faster than my NSX.
The composure of the car, the feel from the steering wheel, the brakes are all a pure delight.
A real pity, Honda did not continue the development of the NA1/NA2 instead of creating a toy for the Hollywood stars...

Jinks · 13 August 2016

CB72 said:
I believe you are right, the car is a bit obsolete compared to today's standards.
I recently drove the new Civic Type R ( Is it sold in the USA?) and without even trying it was definitely faster than my NSX.
The composure of the car, the feel from the steering wheel, the brakes are all a pure delight.
A real pity, Honda did not continue the development of the NA1/NA2 instead of creating a toy for the Hollywood stars...

No type R for us yet. Supposedly we will get it in 2017 they say. It is funny I was watching the new Nsx review video by Shmee and they have it on the track which soundslike it is under heavy throttle and there is a civic type r in front of it, which appears to keep running away from the Nsx and running away rather quickly!

MvM · 14 August 2016

CB72 said:
I believe you are right, the car is a bit obsolete compared to today's standards.
I recently drove the new Civic Type R ( Is it sold in the USA?) and without even trying it was definitely faster than my NSX.
The composure of the car, the feel from the steering wheel, the brakes are all a pure delight.
A real pity, Honda did not continue the development of the NA1/NA2 instead of creating a toy for the Hollywood stars...

You do have a turbo on your NSX right?

I have 'only' a Comptech CTSC on my '98 NSX and I have no trouble keeping up with the current wave of Golf R's or any other hothatch.
Have not raced a new Civic Type-R, but that car is stated as being a 5.9 second 0-100 kph car and my NSX can easily beat that.

CB72 · 14 August 2016

MvM said:
You do have a turbo on your NSX right?

I have 'only' a Comptech CTSC on my '98 NSX and I have no trouble keeping up with the current wave of Golf R's or any other hothatch.
Have not raced a new Civic Type-R, but that car is stated as being a 5.9 second 0-100 kph car and my NSX can easily beat that.

No doubt the NSX would be faster in a straight line, what I ment is that on a track the situation could be very different especially if it rains.
Witness this video where a Civic type R runs with a Lotus Exige S rated at 350 hp.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d9EspJhnhF4

docjohn · 14 August 2016

I had some spirited hpde at the glen with another instructor who had one when they first came out...me on RA1 him on hoosers ..I had to work hard to stay with him but his power and slicks were too much...

austrian type-R · 15 August 2016

Quartermile time was about equal to a v8'M3 (with my 2015 setup, stock engine). But my nsx is modified. A stock nsx is defenitly slower

CB72 · 17 August 2016

I now know why I wasn't able to follow the M3 V8...
The power was no way neer the 400 rwhp the LoveFab kit should deliver?
I'll open a separate thread to discuss the issue but here's the result from the dyno:
Max HP : 331.6 at 8246 rpm ( 250 km/h in 4th gear)
Max torque: 410 Nm at 4803 rpm

NSX%20Pito%20Engineering%20001_zpsrczduomc.jpg

austrian type-R · 17 August 2016

What standalone ecu are you using? I bet you just need to tune it. Is this your first dynorun after the turboinstall? Have you not done that steps: install, dynotuning with wideband sensors with a well known tuner.

Does your vvis butterfly valves open? The powerband looks like there is something blocking at 5000 rpm.

foundry3 · 22 August 2016

If you can, take out the vvis plate all together and have a re-tune done. It makes tuning get a little wonky as a result of the sudden needed fuel when they open. Looks like you have too much fuel when the vvis plate opens or something like that.

Your chart should not have a dip in it like that.

What turbo is this? IIRC you run something like 8psi correct?

Hapa88 · 8 September 2016

Hapa88 said:
Are you sure that M3 wasn't modified with something like a supercharger? It past you like you were standing still. Then on the straight it just run away from you.
Bolt on E92 Supercharger kits make around 600-700 hp.

CB72 said:
I now know why I wasn't able to follow the M3 V8...
The power was no way neer the 400 rwhp the LoveFab kit should deliver?
I'll open a separate thread to discuss the issue but here's the result from the dyno:
Max HP : 331.6 at 8246 rpm ( 250 km/h in 4th gear)
Max torque: 410 Nm at 4803 rpm

I knew something was wrong. Stock E92 M3s put down around 360 whp and a stock weight of ~3700 lbs. Meaning the weight/power ratio is 10.27 lbs/per whp. If he shed 500 lbs (which is pretty extreme) his ratio would be 8.88 lbs/whp.
Your NSX should have been 420 whp and weighs 3000 lbs. So your weight/power would have been only 7.14 lbs/per whp. Meaning that you should have walked away from him!!
Doing the calculation at 332 whp and 3000 lbs the result is 9.09 lbs/per whp (very close to a 500 lb weight reduction)... You still should have won on the straight, IMO unless that guy did some EXTREME weight reduction (like over 500 lbs) or was lying to you about his performance mods..

CB72 · 9 September 2016

Hapa88 said:
I knew something was wrong. Stock E92 M3s put down around 360 whp and a stock weight of ~3700 lbs. Meaning the weight/power ratio is 10.27 lbs/per whp. If he shed 500 lbs (which is pretty extreme) his ratio would be 8.88 lbs/whp.
Your NSX should have been 420 whp and weighs 3000 lbs. So your weight/power would have been only 7.14 lbs/per whp. Meaning that you should have walked away from him!!
Doing the calculation at 332 whp and 3000 lbs the result is 9.09 lbs/per whp (very close to a 500 lb weight reduction)... You still should have won on the straight, IMO unless that guy did some EXTREME weight reduction (like over 500 lbs) or was lying to you about his performance mods..

A few other factors come into play
1) he was alone in the car while we were two
2) He was running semi-slicks ( P Zero Corsa Tropheo's)
3) the NSX comes out of the turn at relatively low rpm in third (where my torque is really low) while the BMW is most probably in a more favorable part of the power curve
4) the turn is slightly off camber and downhill that in a mid engine car requires more caution ( at least with my driving skills)

- - - Updated - - -

foundry3 said:
If you can, take out the vvis plate all together and have a re-tune done. It makes tuning get a little wonky as a result of the sudden needed fuel when they open. Looks like you have too much fuel when the vvis plate opens or something like that.

Your chart should not have a dip in it like that.

What turbo is this? IIRC you run something like 8psi correct?

The issue came from a leak between the turbo and the engine inlet.
I will run another dyno test soon.

Racinghart nsx · 17 October 2016

I have race against the e92 on a race track call the ridge motorsport raceway. It has chipped and exhaust pump out 500plus horses and I have header and ecu injectors swap with 300hp and 2800bls back in 2012. The m3 has the straight but due to the weight of the car it slide a lot out of corner and so I can catch up to him at the corner.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IT8VWG9L4Bg

I have recently race with a new m4 with all the track mod u can think of in the car. its much faster on the straight and also coming out of cornering seems to be a lot stabler. Luckily, my car at today state has six speed and rear wing and 2500 bls weigh reduction that help me to off set the different from the straight and eventually caught him at corner exit.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c7pQZRmzaaY

CB72 · 17 October 2016

Racinghart nsx said:
I have race against the e92 on a race track call the ridge motorsport raceway. It has chipped and exhaust pump out 500plus horses and I have header and ecu injectors swap with 300hp and 2800bls back in 2012. The m3 has the straight but due to the weight of the car it slide a lot out of corner and so I can catch up to him at the corner.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IT8VWG9L4Bg

I have recently race with a new m4 with all the track mod u can think of in the car. its much faster on the straight and also coming out of cornering seems to be a lot stabler. Luckily, my car at today state has six speed and rear wing and 2500 bls weigh reduction that help me to off set the different from the straight and eventually caught him at corner exit.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c7pQZRmzaaY

Good driving!
I would guess that the M4 ran out of brakes at the end of the run?
What tires and suspension are you running with?
I believe I got my power back after fixing the leak from the turbo to the T.B.
Still a little short for running against a 991 GT3 with 475 bhp and a 7 speed seamless gearbox.
I bet you the new NSX will not hold this GT3 on a track....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bi28h7aU4bc

Racinghart nsx · 20 October 2016

Those 991 gt3s in our track are monsters! I can tell your car seems to have a bit of roll. I love the sound coming from the lovefab turbo and seems like you have no problem keep up with them in straight line. I am pretty much max up the poor little v6 at 300hp and I shift this new 6 spd tranmission at 8400 rpm every gear. I am using my old comptech pro suspension which is the same as the koni 3012 and stock sway bar with gt wiing and usual nt01 235/275 with ap brakes.

CB72 · 20 October 2016

Racinghart nsx said:
Those 991 gt3s in our track are monsters! I can tell your car seems to have a bit of roll. I love the sound coming from the lovefab turbo and seems like you have no problem keep up with them in straight line. I am pretty much max up the poor little v6 at 300hp and I shift this new 6 spd tranmission at 8400 rpm every gear. I am using my old comptech pro suspension which is the same as the koni 3012 and stock sway bar with gt wiing and usual nt01 235/275 with ap brakes.

You are right, I have quite a bit of body roll.
I suppose you are running with the 1000 lbs/inch and 600 lbs/inch rates with your Koni 3012's?
From that point of view, my NSX is still very much a road car with my Zanardi springs.
I'm tempted to go with the KW V3's sport version but I wonder how many seconds I would gain with this setup?

Racinghart nsx · 21 October 2016

I have been running 1000 and 600 combo for the last 6 years and I can honestly tell you its the best combo I ever had for street and track.
Running a soft spring but using a much stiffer sway bar will hurt the ride as well as the track time since you are trading traction for less body roll.
I find that stock sway bar are suffice enough with this spring rate. It actually ride quite good even my aunt who is 65 has no complaint riding with me from Vancouver to Shelton for 5 hours. However if your street is full of bumps and potholes than its not a good idea. I heard one of my friend use to run kw v3 sport version but he still need to revolve and put stiffer springs at the end to compute. I use to run koni yellow when I first got my car and it was about the same spring rate as your Zanardi and I find that its very good till I put nt01 on it. With my new suspension set up I am like 4 to 5 sec all my track I been to. Think car can finally unleash the potential of the Nt01.

CB72 · 22 October 2016

Racinghart nsx said:
I have been running 1000 and 600 combo for the last 6 years and I can honestly tell you its the best combo I ever had for street and track.
Running a soft spring but using a much stiffer sway bar will hurt the ride as well as the track time since you are trading traction for less body roll.
I find that stock sway bar are suffice enough with this spring rate. It actually ride quite good even my aunt who is 65 has no complaint riding with me from Vancouver to Shelton for 5 hours. However if your street is full of bumps and potholes than its not a good idea. I heard one of my friend use to run kw v3 sport version but he still need to revolve and put stiffer springs at the end to compute. I use to run koni yellow when I first got my car and it was about the same spring rate as your Zanardi and I find that its very good till I put nt01 on it. With my new suspension set up I am like 4 to 5 sec all my track I been to. Think car can finally unleash the potential of the Nt01.

I've been running with Toyo R 888 235/40*17 and 265/35*18 for some time.
I believe their are the equivalent of the NT01's ?
I took them off because I did not like the way the car followed every undulation in the road.
On top, there was a very strange noise coming from the front when the car slowed to a standstill as when stopping at a red light?
Currently the car is on Pirelli PZero Corsa's but I've just bought some Avon ZZR's (215 and 265 sizes) that are used in competition on the Exige V6 cup cars.
I understand the reasoning on the springs vs swaybars.