Harness routing and Roll over protection.

[illwillem]

After overhauling the whole car to be more track-centric Ive been thinking more and more about safety. The unfortunate event of the fatality this past Sunday at Chuckwalla drove it home and the fact that it happened at an event i was scheduled to be driving in and to people I know made it even more clear that the dangers of what we do are a serious reality. There is an unfortunate amount of conflicting information regarding what actually improves safety and what counter intuitively can be even MORE dangerous. Ive read everything under the sun regarding this stuff on prime, more than once and still am unclear about a few things. I know you cannot protect for every situation but you can do things that at least prepare for the majority. My questions are;

I have a 6pt Schroth harness, HANS Recaro SPG and HANS device anchored to my helmet and the comptech harness bar. As far as the sub straps are concerned: can they be safely routed through the sub-strap hole in the seat and back to the eyelet provisions at the bottom of the harness bar? I don't have any room for the eyelets to protrude from the floor since my seat is basically touching the carpet. The other option concerning sub straps is the 'formula style' where sub straps exit the lap belt holes loop around your legs and connect to the cam lock, you are then effectively sitting on the sub straps. There is mucho conflicting info about if this routing is safe or not. more specifically the question dealing with attaching the sub straps to the harness bar eyelet provisions get somewhat jumbled and end in a cliff hangers.

I am 6'4" almost 6'5" and there is very little room when i'm strapped into the seat between my helmet and the roof, I have bracketed the seat the lowest it will go and bought the thinnest foam pad available for the Recaro and am still just able to fit. I've read a lot of people saying that harness and a harness bar without a roll cage is extremely unsafe in itself. In my case, too, with the HANS seat halo, there is essentially zero room for a cage if I even wanted to entertain the idea of getting one. Ive heard of people cutting the floor to accommodate more head room but that is a very drastic solution. How unsafe/safe is JUST a harness bar in a roll over situation? Unfortunately tracking in California the fear of a rollover is a real one with all the awful near track surfaces being rutted and soft.

Am i once again talking myself out of having any fun in the NSX? What do you guys do?

 

[TURBO2GO]

You're bringing up a lot of classic questions I've brought up before. I just emailed Nate to get cracking on an updated version of the Comptech rollbar.

Where is the conflict with the halo of your seat and a cage? Is your car a coupe?

Also what is the story with this death? I haven't heard.

 

[docjohn]

take your seat out bolt the antisub strap to the floor and get a local upholstery shop to cut and stitch a slit through your cushion.

 

[illwillem]

Ill take a picture of the conflict with where the cage goes, car is a coupe.


Apparently a guy took his gfriend out and crashed into the flagstation just after the uphill chicaine, sounds like no hans and 4pt harness made it a pretty awful scene, last reports was he was alive and airlifted out in critical condition, she was not so lucky. the Riverside corner has her death listed as that same day of the even, so I imagine she didnt make it out of the car. Crash explanation from a friend of mine on another website:

I saw the aftermath of this accident as I rode passenger with a buddy.

As we crested over the turn 11 incline (ccw), I saw what looked like a mangled vehicle mashed against the flag station's tire wall base. Couldn't quite make out what I was looking at right away, but as we drove by it became more clear that it was an Integra Type-R. I was mind blown at how bad the front end damage was. Most of the impact was all on the front driver side of the vehicle. Driver was just sitting there motionless and helmet-less and eyes closed. Not sure if he took his helmet off or came off during the collision. Figured he was either unconscious or in disbelief of what just happened. Didn't even notice he had a passenger either. Red flags were up and everyone exited the track. They ended the trackday about 45mins afterwards, everyone had to leave. Helicopter flew in to the accident site and everything.

Now, the front of his car was facing towards turn 11/12. So I guess what happened was as he came up turn 11, lost it somewhere, corrected, and tractor beamed right into the flag station and the inertia of the crash probably whipped the car around 180 to its final position. Or perhaps he misjudged the blind apex turn 11 is known for, hit the gravel, got squirly trying to correct and b-lined it to the tire barrier..

condolences to the family and close people involved.

..a lil diagram i threw together...


http://www.trackhq.com/forums/attachments/f325/5625d1366695477-fatality-@-cvr-cvr_crash.jpg


I will add though that the accident happened right at the beginning of the session, which leads me to believe that perhaps the tires were not up to temp before the driver was pushing too hard. It was very eery though passing him by and seeing the driver appearing to be unconscious, and I didn't even notice a passenger, maybe because she submarined

Speculation says that the drivers helmet popped off his head during impact because he didn't secure the helmet strap. I didn't personally know the driver or passenger, but I have seen them before probably 3 or 4 times at other track days. It really hit home with me seeing it all. It has gutted me and my heart goes out to the driver and the family and friends of the girl that passed away. It has definitely made me more aware of safety, and is a wake up call. I don't remember seeing any tires surrounding the flag station, and the flag station looked to be concrete. I think if it had tires surrounding it, it could be safer. I guess at this point we aren't sure what caused the accident, could have been cold tires mixed with trying to go to fast, a failure of a steering or suspension component, tire blowing out, stuck open throttle, who knows.

 

[1K2GO]

Damn I hate hearing about this. I was just at this track with 9doors a few weeks ago and I remember commenting how safe the track seemed to me. There's really nothing to hit out there unless you do something really crazy. I was on track when a friend of mine crashed and killed his student at Willow Springs and thats why I can't bring myself to go back there. Condolences to the families.

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Were they running clockwise or counter?

 

[TURBO2GO]

Man I really really hate hearing things like this. I think it's critical they figure out what happened and learn from it. So driver and passenger both died???

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That track looks incredibly safe

 

[docjohn]

Wow that is very rare and unusual to have a passenger death.I hope the organization takes a long hard look at thier policy and safety regs in allowing passengers esp without instructers driving.

 

[TURBO2GO]

These stories make me want to not get on the track AT ALL.

 

[RYU]

I've been following this from local friends. Its tough to read about evrytime. I hope improvements are made to either equipment, policy/procedures or the track layout.

Every year I think about stepping down to mini-bikes or karting permanently.

 

[mochanges]

I just read about this as well. Turbo, driver survived, it appears the woman was his girlfriend.

Willem, I've researched this quite a bit and 99% of the injuries in rollovers are from your head hitting something in the interior of the car, not from the roof crushing in. A harness, with or without a rollbar or cage, is safer than no harness. Research Joe Marko and Dr. John Melvin from General Motors and their comments on the subject. There is tons of information and misinformation regarding whether to use harnesses with or without a cage. I think it's best to do the research yourself. Also check this out, near the end: http://www.schrothracing.com/<wbr>sdocs/TechTactics.pdf

 

[docjohn]

http://www.nsxprime.com/forum/showthread.php/172075-A-tragic-lost-on-the-track

 

[RSO 34]

http://www.mydesert.com/article/201...senger-killed-Chuckwalla-Valley-Raceway-crash

 

[RYU]

Willem - Please let us know what you decide to do. Thanks.

I'm on the fence with a few things regarding the NSX; one of them being going all out 10/10ths on track days as opposed to the ~7/10ths casual track day outing.

 

[docjohn]

I have dialed it back since having two kids.......just sayin.............

 

[RYU]

^^ I pass no judgement at all to the people who still go 10/10ths - actually I envy them. It's just different when all of the sudden you realize there are people who depend on you.

 

[Hrant]

Yes, dependents and age/reflexes key in dialing back. One has to recognize one's limitations.

I read the articles and two issues come to my attention. Four point harness - which sadly will cause submarine; and if they hit a wall then the track should have placed some tire protections there. At Thunderhill, the K wall coming out of turn 15 had been an issue for years; and when sadly but finally the president of the track hit the wall there, he placed rows of tires.


Additional information is posted on another thread. It appears the driver may have had an aftermarket steering wheel (hence no air bag), open face helmet perhaps not fully strapped, and the track was driven in reverse direction which changes the safety barrier locations/need. Seems like it was a compilation of various adverse variables that all converged.

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To the OP - I have written quite a bit about the subject thanks to the help and R&D of Ted who did this before me. Do a search.

But to be candid, with you being 6'4+" there is really no "reasonable" solution with a helmet unless most of your height is in the legs in which case you will have quite a cramped posture even if you take the seat cushion out. I really recommend you use another vehicle for a track.

 

[Coz]

Safety, safety safety and always drive within your limits that you feel secure.
Nothing to be won on casual and club racing that makes any of this worth what happened and there's always a lot more to be lost.
Its one thing to endanger yourself, but with a passenger in the car, totally not cool to be driving that hard.

 

[NYCNSX]

Just terrible to read about this crash. The track is supposed to be a safe place. I have been planning to go all out on either my NSX or to build a dedicated track car, but last week I had a little reality check when I broke a rib at one of those fast go karting tracks. I went from leading the pack and having a great time the first 2 races to being put into the wall at 45mph in the 3rd race and not being able to breath. It was pretty scary but it just made me think what if that would have happened on the track going 100+mph in a car. I might not have walked away with only a broken rib. While it hasn't scared me away all together I certainly will put a greater emphasis on safety if and when I decide to start tracking on a regular basis.