Golf Club Technology

[Yellow Rose]

I recently had my driver re-shafted and the guy told me that I have an outdated driver. I do not think it is not that outdated.....it is only three years old - an Orlimar Tri-Metal with titanium face and stiff steel (I don’t like the feedback from graphite) shaft. He said that I am about 20 yds behind in technology and that current drivers are more forgiving. Well of course they are more forgiving, being the size of a cantaloupe.

I personally do not like drivers that grew in monster size using steroids. Shoot, I still have two Taylor Made System 2 drivers that are over ten years old, which are so small today’s fairway woods have a larger head. More on this in a sec.

Yesterday at the driving range, the first five balls hit with my driver were straight arrows about 270-280 yds. (My longest driver a few years ago was 303 yds, but not with this driver.) As I was getting hot and tired, the ball was slipping to the right. With concentration, the ball flight returned straight.

My buddy hits the newest Titleist driver (same as Tiger Woods) and he outdrives me by only a few yds, literally less than five to ten paces. Many times we are side-by-side in the fairway. He is ten years younger than me, but we both have about the same swing speed. I had mine clocked at 107 MPH a while back. I've seen him tap one 347 yds with a Taylor Burner Bubble.

I consistently hit my irons farther than him, by one club. I have cast Titleist DCI’s purchased in 1994 and he has the newest Titleist forged.

If we have similar swing speeds and he has the latest driver on the market, I can see how technology would give him a five to ten yards advantage over me. But for Tiger to hit the same driver/shaft over three-hundred, tells me that his distance advantage over my buddy is not technology. Instead TW’s swing speed is something like 125 MPH. That’s where his distance comes from.

Okay, back to the ten year old Taylor Made System 2 driver. A couple of weeks ago I took it to the range when my Orlimar was in the shop getting re-shafted. Yes, it was more “difficult” to hit. Yes, it was about 15 yds shorter than my Orlimar. But this is to be expected from a club I bought back in 1992.

MY QUESTION - to a good golfer that consistently hits straight, can you tell a drastic improvement in a driver purchased today vs on that is only a few years old?

 

[KGP]

MY QUESTION - to a good golfer that consistently hits straight, can you tell a drastic improvement in a driver purchased today vs on that is only a few years old?

No, absolutely not. It is a feel issue for me, as well as an asthetic issue. I cannot stand looking down at something that does not "look right" in my eyes. While a driver is less of an astetic issue for me than irons, feel, and more importantly - swing weight, launch characteristics of the head, and shaft flex are very important in having confidence in the particular driver to me.

For irons, I don't care what technology comes along, nothing beats my good old MP-29's.

Distance is not derived soley from swing speed, but also from launch angle, which produces less spin, as well as characteristics of a given shaft.

 

[RSO 34]

MY QUESTION - to a good golfer that consistently hits straight, can you tell a drastic improvement in a driver purchased today vs on that is only a few years old?

I cannot offer an expert opinion on hitting a ball straight but I can definitively state that the newer technology in the state of the art drivers has enabled me to slice the ball much further and deeper into the woods than ever before.

 

[Malibu Rapper]

Drastic improvement? No. I'm a club builder and I've been through so many drivers and the club head hasn't mattered so much as the shaft. I'm pretty sure with all my driver heads that I will hit about the same distance given the same shaft and loft. Currently I'll switch between a Liquid Metal, Snake Eyes, and Taylor Made Firesole. The Snake Eyes and Liquid Metal are the two newest clubs I have. I can send these just a tad over 330 with X-stiff shaft on my best hits. The Taylor Made Firesole with a 10.5 degree loft and regular shaft (I think the whippyness helps a lot with clubhead speed) I've hit over 350 about 10 times now and the Taylor Made is several years old now, just plain ole titanium face.

I haven't seen a good driver comparison with all things being equal except for the clubhead but I can't imagine a 20 yard improvement from clubhead technology. The Snake Eyes I have has the spring effect face, and the Liquid Metal of course has that patented superhard alloy. Still can't touch the Taylormade though...

 

[KGP]

The Snake Eyes and Liquid Metal are the two newest clubs I have.

I have the Snake Eyes as well, on a Harrison X lightweight shaft. The trampoline effect is noticable for someone who has exceptional swing speed. But for those who do not posess the swing speed, my observations lead me to believe it is not nearly as effective. My driver swing speed is ~138 (46" shaft), where a playing partner is ~110. He notices no difference at all hitting the Snake Eyes. Nice feel, and the head has remarkable gear effect.

 

[Yellow Rose]

Thanks guys, for your comments.

Bob - not only are you a good photographer, but you are quite a huckster as well.

Gene / Malibu - you pretty much summarized what I was thinking, that it is "feel" thing as well as user error.

My Orlimar driver loft is 10.5° with stiff steel. The Taylor Made System 2 is an 8° with stiff steel. For me to hit the Orlimar farther than the TM, tells me that the difference is in head technology. Afterall, we are comparing two clubs a decade apart.

Shafts - if I have a psychological tendency to swing fast with the driver vs a more controlled swing with the irons, would an extra-stiff shaft help prevent bleeding to the right? What if I slow the swing down with an x-stiff steel, will the club face be closed at impact, resulting in a left flight? Or should I keep the same shaft and work much more on my timing to eliminate user error?

One would think that a low-80's shooter could figure this out, but my quest to consistently be a single-digit handicapper has been frustratingly difficult.

Malibu - not meaning a slam or anything like this, but for you to poke the ball that far, how old are you? You must have a helluva swing speed. I'm 46. Gene - 138 MPH?!?! Yikes -

 

[KGP]

Shafts - if I have a psychological tendency to swing fast with the driver vs a more controlled swing with the irons, would an extra-stiff shaft help prevent bleeding to the right? What if I slow the swing down with an x-stiff steel, will the club face be closed at impact, resulting in a left flight? Or should I keep the same shaft and work much more on my timing to eliminate user error?

That's a complicated question because one cannot assess your "swing" over an internet forum. Seriously, maximum club-head velocity has more to do with a proper release than effort expelled. Match the shaft to your swing. Far too often, Joe Shmoe gets paired with me, watches me stripe an easy swing 100 yards beyond his ball and then asks about the club or shaft. They think they can run out an get some X-100's put in their irons and hit farther, where the opposite (more flex) would help them in terms of distance.

Bottom line - it's more the engine in golf, and less the tires.

One would think that a low-80's shooter could figure this out, but my quest to consistently be a single-digit handicapper has been frustratingly difficult.

Never does get easy, even once you have achieved single digits. It's always something.

I'm 46

Geez, your old.

138 MPH?!?!

Distance is not a problem for me. While I have never gotten into the long drive thing, one of my old teaching pros took third in the Remax competition (finals) some years ago. I have no problem measuring up to him in terms of distance.

 

[Malibu Rapper]

Malibu - not meaning a slam or anything like this, but for you to poke the ball that far, how old are you? You must have a helluva swing speed. I'm 46. Gene - 138 MPH?!?! Yikes -

I'm 29 and swing 145-150 last I measured with a stiff shaft. I only weigh about 140, too. But there are guys that can hit 350 fairly consistently in the long drive competitions. I can only hit that far when everything goes right with the swing but I hit over 300 most of the time.

 

[Sig]

I recently had my driver re-shafted and the guy told me that I I have cast Titleist DCI’s purchased in 1994 and he has the newest Titleist forged.

Hey, we have the same irons.... I can't bring myself to let go of mine despite their age.

I tend to agree with the fact that the new high-end drivers are about 15-20 years longer than their older brethren. However, I don't consider the drivers of just 3 years ago outdated. I currently hit a 9.5 degree Adams Redline driver... it replaced an early 90's Taylor Made with the same loft. I definately got a bump in distance. However, distance was not an area that I needed help with..... so it's difficult to say how much difference it makes in my game. On a level fairway and a full swing, I can usually put it out there between 320-350 depending on the roll. The problem is, with an even slight miscalculation of line or degree of draw/fade on the ball.... it goes a long way in the wrong direction. Thus, I rarely swing full off the tee box. Along the lines of what KGP said, I too am a believer it has to look and feel good in my hands for me to envision good shots.

On the swing speed issue, sheer speed is important but is only one factor in the final distance of the ball. This is what allows someone like Ernie Els to hit the ball just as far as many of his competitors that have significantly faster swings. The same is true in baseball/softball.

 

[Yellow Rose]

The Big Easy

On the swing speed issue, sheer speed is important but is only one factor in the final distance of the ball. This is what allows someone like Ernie Els to hit the ball just as far as many of his competitors that have significantly faster swings.

My three favorite golfers to admire their swings are Fred, David and Ernie.

Sig - please elaborate on your comment, above.

 

[KGP]

Re: The Big Easy

My three favorite golfers to admire their swings are Fred, David and Ernie.

1. Payne Stewart - Swing that oozed of tempo.
2. Tiger - Technically superior to anyone that has ever been.
3. Sam Snead - Sweetest swing in golf.

 

[Sig]

Re: The Big Easy

Sig - please elaborate on your comment, above.

Aside from wind and grass length factors, I believe all the variables that effect distance are:

-Ball Velocity
-Club Head Speed
-Mass of Club head
-Mass of Ball

All other things being equal, the biggest difference from person to person is not only club head speed but the strength(torque) of their swing. Take two players with 110mph swings..... one of them is 150 pounds and the other is 250 pounds. Player B will in all likelyhood create a higher ball velocity after impact than player A due to overcoming the impact of the ball with less of effect on the exit speed of the club head. The more significant impact is that the stronger golfer can swing a heavier club head without taking a penalty on club head speed, whereas the weaker golfer will incurr a significant swing speed penalty if he were to swing a heavier club. This is the principle I was referring to when I mentioned baseball. Let's say Alfonso Soriono and Barry Bonds have the same swing speed. To achieve this swing speed, Alfonso must carry a much lighter bat than Barry though. The end result is a much higher ball velocity after impacting Barry's swing vs. Alfonso's.

In golf their are lighter and heavier clubs, I have always perferred clubs with some mass. I have much better feel with them, as I feel like I lose track of the club head at the top of my swing with an ultra-light club. However, my swing speed does not increase significantly with lighter clubs to make much of a difference in distance. In the pros, many of them use custom weighted heads or even lead tape on the club heads to add mass.

I remember last summer Ernie Els was playing in one of thos Shell match play primetime events. During which they were measuring the swing speeds, ball speeds after impact and distance on all the driving holes. He had a lower swing speed by 8-10mph on avg, but he was out-driving the other guy each time due to higher post-impact ball speeds.

 

[KGP]

Re: Re: The Big Easy

I believe all the variables that effect distance are:

-Ball Velocity
-Club Head Speed
-Mass of Club head
-Mass of Ball

You forgot launch angle, which is far more important. Most average weekend hackers hit the ball with a negative angle of attack, requiring them to use loft of a club to generate carry. On the other hand, professionals, good amatuers and long drive pros all impact the ball with a positive angle of attack, allowing them to use far less loft to achieve the same, or greater, launch angle, resulting in far less back-spin that results is greater carry. It's common for an accomplished long-drive pro to use lofts of 7 degrees or less, yet achieve a launch angle far greater than an average player, and at the same time produce much less spin, resulting in greater carry. Same principle holds true to everyday players. Reduced loft, along with a positive launch angle at impact results in less spin, which equals greater carry. Reduced loft for the average weekend hack results only in frustration.

My old teaching pro who took third in the national long drive competition used a 4 degree Ping Ti head.

 

[Sig]

Re: Re: Re: The Big Easy

You forgot launch angle, which is far more important. Most average weekend hackers hit the ball with a negative angle of attack, requiring them to use loft of a club to generate carry.

Very true, launch angle is crucial. My attempt at explaining the club head speed to club head torque would assume that launch angle for both player A and B would be identical.

Originally posted by KGP
My old teaching pro who took third in the national long drive competition used a 4 degree Ping Ti head.

Good lord, that's impressive. I used an 8 degree Big Bertha for about 6 months when they first came out, even that seemed extreem to me.

 

[jlindy]

All the technology in the world is not going to help me.

 

[Yellow Rose]

I think the take-away lesson is that assuming consistent swing speed, same ball, same clubhead - the shaft needs to be matched to the person......not only the flex but kickpoint too. Color also makes a difference. I was thumbing through a Titleist pamphlet last night and see they offer only graphite in their driver but offer something like five or six different shafts, depending on the person’s swing traits. For that matter, offhand, I don’t recall seeing a driver on the showroom floor that sells from the factory with a steel shaft. Hmmmm.

 

[KGP]

I think the take-away lesson is that assuming consistent swing speed, same ball, same clubhead - the shaft needs to be matched to the person......not only the flex but kickpoint too.

And torque, length, and the most frequently overlooked area - grip sizing. The end result of grip size (after whatever tape is applied) is commonly overlooked, even by good amateur players. It was not until I spent a weekend at Leadbetter's did I fully understand how important it was, and also that few teaching pros understood it either. At the time, David had a fitter/club repair guy named Mickey Novack, who spent years on the tour tending to the players club needs. He spent hours after one of my sessions not only explaining why it was important, but also teaching me different wrapping techniques.

The most amazing thing I encountered with him was the first time he walked up to me while I was hitting balls. He watched me hit two shots of a five iron, then asked me to hit a wedge. I hit two wedges, then he said (with no measuring) "your five iron is 2 degrees flat, and your wedge is 1 degree flat (overall measurement). I looked at him with confusion, saying "can't be, I ordered them at 1 degree up." He took both those clubs, put them on his measuring device, and what do you know - he was exactly right with what he visually saw. Didn't take much more to convince me that he knew what he was talking about. It was also the best sales job I ever witnessed, because he handed me a bag full of Nick Faldo's clubs (test clubs given to him by manufactures), and an hour later I had a new set of Mizuno's.

 

[nkb]

Re: Re: Re: The Big Easy

You forgot launch angle, which is far more important. Most average weekend hackers hit the ball with a negative angle of attack, requiring them to use loft of a club to generate carry. On the other hand, professionals, good amatuers and long drive pros all impact the ball with a positive angle of attack, allowing them to use far less loft to achieve the same, or greater, launch angle, resulting in far less back-spin that results is greater carry.

I'm a weekend hacker, so this probably won't help me much, but now I am curious.

Can you elaborate a little more on angle of attack? What exactly does it mean when you have a negative or positive one?

Thanks.

 

[KGP]

Re: Re: Re: Re: The Big Easy

Can you elaborate a little more on angle of attack? What exactly does it mean when you have a negative or positive one?

Sure, if the club head is traveling downward at impact, it is considered a negative angle of attack. Conversely, if the club head is traveling upward at impact, it is considered a positive angle of attack. To offset a negative angle of attack, additional loft is required. The combination of the downward strike and additional loft imparts greater back-spin, which results in less carry than a player who has the same launch angle (initial trajectory of the ball from impact), but accomplishes it through less loft and a positive angle of attack. I'm sure you can search the internet for more detailed information using the same terminology and find some more in depth explanations.

By contrast, all iron shots are properly hit with a negative angle of attack, which is what allows us to take a divot past the actual impact area of the ball. The loft of the iron is what provides trajectory, along with how steep the negative angle of attack is, as a greater negative angle imparts more back-spin, causing the shot to rise higher.

Ever hear the term "ballooning" when someone talks about a shot that rises high, yet doesn't achieve the distance they expect? It has to do with excess back-spin created from the above mentioned factors, as well as characteristics of a club head (especially in the case of a driver).

 

[Yellow Rose]

The combination of the downward strike and additional loft imparts greater back-spin, which results in less carry.....

As well as an over-emphasized fade / slice or draw / hook, if the clubhead is not square at impact.

Ever hear the term "ballooning" when someone talks about a shot that rises high, yet doesn't achieve the distance they expect? It has to do with excess back-spin.....

And head-wind, that "lifts" the ball because of its dimples.

 

[FGG]

I purchased and play the new Taylor Made r7quad driver. I have never been one to follow the high-tech crowd, but I played this club and know, at least for me, that it works dramatically better than anything else I have ever used. Of the six available weight settings I have settled in on neutral low. I have the 9.5 degree, stiff flex shaft. I am at least 15-20 yards longer than I have been (now at 290-310) and without question my ball flight has been straight as an arrow compared to a periodic push right with previous drivers. (p.s. I am an 11 handicap)

 

[NSX 3.0]

Kind of off the subject here but did anyone catch American Chopper this week. DL3s wife tossed a surprise 40th birthday party for him and called on the guys to build him a chopper for the occasion. I never would of thought of him as being a big bike fan but he is. The finished product did nothing for me kind of ugly IMO but check out the show if you can episode 32.

http://dsc.discovery.com/fansites/amchopper/episode/episode.html

 

[KGP]

DL3 rocks. He has been my fovorite for years (Payne a close second). I have to see that episode.

 

[Sig]

I caught it the other night. It was interesting to see a guy with a golf shirt tucked in his slacks driving a big'ole chopper. Even more interesting was seeing DL3 side-by-side with the guys from the shop.... Davis looked like a little kid next to them.

DL3 is definately a class act, just like his golf swing.