From scratch

[MarkB]

I am new tgo the NSX and to aftermarket mods; so, please bear with me.

My goal is a street-legal car in which I can safely run at the track with reasonably good performance.

After thinking about the issues involved in mod'ing my car, I have come to the conclusion that the best place to start is suspension and breaks. I would appreciate any info. in this area that might be appropriate.

Second on the list should, I believe, be the engine (exhaust, intake, turbo, etc.). I am not terribly concerned at this time with these items except to ask for your opinions of CompTech.

Third are (maybe) body enhancements.

Have I covered all of the bases? Am I missing anything at the macro level?

TIA

 

[DanO]

Here’s my list recommended in chronological order based on what is most important first, and what is easy/inexpensive to install second. Other opinions will vary…

Phase 1
Track time: the best mod you can make (by far) in terms of lap time is driver’s education
Ventilation to front/rear brakes via deflectors and/or ducting
Upgraded street/track brake pads,
High temp brake fluid
Speedbleeders
5-pt. harnesses (an excellent mod to help reduce driver fatigue and overall on-track fun)
Stiffer anti-sway bars (street/track)
A032 yoko track tires (’91-’93) OEM wheels
Headers/exhaust for fun! (makes things loud on the street though)
Lower car 7/8” using bilsteins and OEM springs

Phase 2
Bigger wheels/tires
Bigger brakes
Supped-up coil over suspension
Noncompliance suspension parts
Oil cooler
Forced induction

I would recommend keeping the factory air box and filter.

DanO

 

[Soichiro]

Phase 1
Track time: the best mod you can make (by far) in terms of lap time is driver’s education

Phase 2
Spend $1000 on an old shitbox, preferably something light and tossable. Horsepower does not matter because you'll be learning about momentum. Spend another $4000 on safety gear and tires. Take THAT to the track - if you smash it up you will have saved big bucks over anything you can do with any NSX, and WHEN you smash it up you can smile knowing your NSX is safe at home. OCTJMO

 

[Andrie Hartanto]

Gary,

what $1000 shitbox? We want to have fun while doing it

 

[MarkB]

.....Speedbleeders.....Noncompliance suspension parts.....

I'm not sure I understand these 2 items. Would you please elaborate?

 

[DanO]

Phase 2
Spend $1000 on an old shitbox, preferably something light...

I think that is usually Phase 3...after you've invested countless time and money on NSX mods and don't want to drive it hard for fear of balling it up. A cheap race-preped (roll cage, fuel cell, fire suppression...) Neon is a good Phase 3 mod

DanO

 

[nsxtasy]

What I would suggest is that you try doing your first few track events with the car absolutely bone stock (or whatever mods you may already have on it). Your car will do just fine, as long as it is in good mechanical shape, with fresh brake fluid, tires with some tread on them, brake pads with plenty of pad material (stock pads are fine, or performance aftermarket, but not generic auto parts pads). Then see if there is anything you want to change. You will probably find that there is nothing that absolutely must get changed. In fact, your limits as a driver will be way, way, WAY below those of the car, as you will quickly find out.

NSX Driver is the quarterly newsletter that is sent to members of the NSX Club of America. The next issue, scheduled to be mailed in late summer, will have the first of a two-part series on how to maintain the NSX for track use. It's not a "do it yourself" manual or a guide to mods, but rather, how to service your car and what to keep an eye on at the track. Part one concentrates largely on brakes. Other systems on the car will be covered in part two.

 

[DanO]

Speed bleeders are brake caliper bleed valves that have check valves inside them so that bleeding the brake lines can be a one-man operation, www.speedbleeder.com

Noncompliance suspension pieces replace the OEM compliance suspension parts that make the NSX so nice to drive on the street but contribute to some toe and camber changes during cornering, which apparently is not desirable for hard track driving. There is no reason to even think about this mod unless you are thinking of making your car more of a track-only type of car.

In reality, none of the mods I suggested are really needed for the first few DE events and to drive your car really fast on the track. Later, you may run into brake problems, but those can be solved with proper ventilation, fluid and pads. As NSXtacy suggests, I’d start by signing up for a few DE events to see if it’s your cup of tea before spending tons of cash and time converting a really good street car into an ok street car.

A few years ago, when my ‘92 had all Phase1 mods, I was driving it pretty quickly (respectable NSX lap times) at my local track and was bested by a guy in a bone stock ’91 (with A032s). He had more driving experience and was a better driver than me and he slowly slipped away from my reach. The two of us spent the day discussing different lines and running lead/follow sessions so at the end of the day I was able to learn enough to stay with him and lower my lap times (he lowered his too). The idea that certain mods inherently lower lap times is not always reflected in reality.

Lower lap times or “better performance” do not necessarily coincide with more fun at the track. I had the opportunity one weekend to drive my car with Dunlop SP8000’s at a track; these tires are really slippery compared to the R compound tires that I was used to running. Although my lap times were slower than normal, I had more fun because the car was slippery and it turned out to be extremely educational because I was able to tune my car control skills while going slower and on a more forgiving tire. So driving on cheep street tires is slower, but it can be more educational and more fun.

At track events, the prize money sucks, so safety and fun is the primary end.

However, if you’re like me and lots of other guys/gals on this list then playing around and modifying things (and learning from the trials inherent in the process) is fun and is an end just by itself—that’s why I do it!

DanO

 

[matteni]

I'm not sure I understand these 2 items. Would you please elaborate?

Speedbleeders allow you to bleed the brake fluid with one person very quickly. There is info about them in the FAQs. Great if you are a DIYer who bleeds their own brake fluid. Great addition for little $$$.

http://www.speedbleeder.com/

The non-compliance suspension parts allow you to change the suspension geometry and replace compressible suspension mounts with harder mounts that increase the ride harshness but are much more predictable at the track (they don't store and release energy the same way as rubber). CompTech has some under their race section as:

Competition - Non-Compliance Rear Beam

Competition - Non-Compliance Toe Link Kit

Science of Speed and Dali Racing also sell toe links from what I remember.

Good luck. Your 03' NSX is well suited for the track and you will discover it is a LOT faster then 99% of what you will run with and 99.9% faster then you are! I have a lot of mods so I know the feeling of wanting the best equipment for you - but in the end the Tiger woods would kick my but with left handed kids clubs vs. me and my zillion dollar Pings.

 

[grippgoat]

I would have actually put street/track brake pads and high-temp brake fluid first on the list, above even brake cooling, because they're so easy to do.

-Mike

 

[MarkB]

I would have actually put street/track brake pads and high-temp brake fluid first on the list, above even brake cooling, because they're so easy to do.

-Mike

If I do anything with the breaks it will be an upgrade. What would you suggest -- slotted disks, oversized, raceing style, etc. and which vendor is best?

 

[grippgoat]

If I do anything with the breaks it will be an upgrade. What would you suggest -- slotted disks, oversized, raceing style, etc. and which vendor is best?

Big brake kit: $4000+
Wheels / tires that fit over said kit: $1500+

Dali/StopTech AeroRotors for Stock Brakes: ~$500

Good street/track pads front + rear: <$200
Motul 600 Brake Fluid for full flush: ~$30

I think Ken Sax is the best example of how good pads, fluid, and cooling are all you need with street tires and stock horsepower. For $150, and the ease of installation, pads and fluid are a no-brainer. If you're planning to take your car to the track AT ALL before you get a big brake kit, you'd be silly not to get fresh street/track pads and good brake fluid. It's cheap insurance that you won't completely blow your brakes out in the first session, and ruin the rest of your day, or worse, have an accident because of a brake problem.

If money isn't really an issue, then your next step may very well be bigger wheels and a full big brake kit. However, if you're going to stay on street tires for a while, and you're on a budget, then you'll probably want to work on brake cooling for the stock brakes, and perhaps the upgraded front rotors.

I'm not going to be one of those people that insists it's silly to even think about doing all kinds of upgrades because of how good the car is in stock trim. I think there's plenty of people with that view to cover that angle well. But I will say that if you jump into doing upgrades before you know what you're trying to get out of track driving, you could find yourself in a position of spending your budget on things that aren't really going to help you.

Your overall modification path also depends heavily on your true motivations for modifying the vehicle. When people ask a question like you did, the people answering it very often fail to realize that track performance is probably not the only motivating factor, and indeed is often only a small part of it.

Unless you've got a lot of money and spare time, it's simply just not realistic to think that you're going to be doing all your mods for the sake of track events. It's probably best that you plan to derive most of your enjoyment of the car from street driving.

So, if you want a car that looks good and is fun to drive on the street more importantly than being optimal on the race track, then I would definitely say that for brakes you should just get pads/fluid/cooling, and spend your big bucks on headers, exhaust, intake (I like stock airbox + cantrell concepts CAI), wheels, and suspension, and save the big brake kit for when you're running race tires and/or forced induction on the race track, or are just pushing the car past where the stock brakes are happy.

If I had a bone stock NSX, and had the long-term goals of a frequently street-driven and sometimes track-driven car, I'd do things in the following order:

0) Figure out my monthly budget, taking into account costs for running track events that I want to do.

0.5) Helmet

1) street / track pads with good fluid

1.5) brake cooling if I'm actually doing a fair number of track events (I've had my car for 3 years and I've only done 3 track days, so I haven't done this)

2) 17/18" wheel setup that would have room for a big brake kit (I like Volk TE37s, but they're spendy) with street tires that have decent performance and treadwear. At this point, I'd still use the stock rims for track events. (I made the mistake of buying and falling in love with a 17/18" wheel combo that won't fit over a big brake kit, and it's going to pain me terribly to part with them)

3) Swaybars

4) Tein RA suspension

5) Exhaust

6) Headers

7) Incidental things that I want, like shift knob, steering wheel, other minor cosmetic things

After that point, I'd start doing things as I decided I need them, because I was getting more serious about the track events:
- driving suit / gloves / shoes / other personal safety equipment
- 5-point harnesses
- Seats
- Big brake kit
- 17/17" wheels for the track, with r-compound track tires, making sure they're strong enough for track use.
- non-compliance suspension parts
- aerodynamics
- transmission / clutch / flywheel mods
- forced induction
- roll bar / cage


You'll probably learn far more from getting your car to a few track / autocross events, and just owning and driving it for a while than you will by asking questions here.

And lastly, it's your car, your money, and you're the one who's gonna be driving it, so don't be afraid to go against someone's recommended upgrade path as long as you're confident that your decision is sound and that you will be pleased with the results.

-Mike

 

[grippgoat]

If I do anything with the breaks it will be an upgrade. What would you suggest -- slotted disks, oversized, raceing style, etc. and which vendor is best?

That last post got away from me. To more directly answer the actual question you asked:

I've always had good luck with Motul 600 Brake Fluid, as have many many of the people I autocrossed with in the Seattle area. Equally as many people have also had equally good luck with ATE Super Blue.

I have Dali Street / Track pads. I've been happy with their performance. They're a bit on the spendier end of the price scale for street / track pads. They could stand to be replaced real soon. If I weren't planning on getting a big brake kit, I'd try the Hawk HPS pads from www.tirerack.com, which are $127 front and rear.

My rotors also need attention. So if I weren't going to get a big brake kit, I'd have three possible options:
1) OEM rotors
2) Dali Racing has/had OEM-replacement rotors in another brand at reduced cost, which is what I have now, and have performend reasonably well, but maybe not as well as OEM
3) Dali also has/had the StopTech AeroRotors in OEM-replacement size, which I believe Ken Sax has used on his Integra Type-R (if not his NSX) with good results.

Dali Racing I believe has a good offering of brake cooling products for the OEM setup.

As a general note with Dali Racing, from experience, Mark Johnson is a great guy, and he has unbeatable prices. However, he's a busy guy outside of running his business, and his great prices on many products are due to keeping low stock and going through channels that sometimes aren't terribly reliable. Some people have had issues dealing with him (I've always had great service, and so have many other people), and I think in more cases than not it was due to back-ordered items or otherwise strange circumstances. So if you're going to order something, I'd highly recommend verifying via email that the products are in-stock and ready to ship, and if you don't get a response, or there's a wishy-washy response as to when they'll be in stock, reconsider your options, because ordering under those circumstances could require more baby-sitting / nagging / followup on your part than you were counting on.

Chris Willson / Science of Speed is a good vendor. I haven't bought much from him, but I knew him from when we were both in Seattle, and have only ever heard good feedback.

Check the FAQ or search the forums post to find out who the current preferred place to order OEM parts from is.

The big brake kit I want to get is the Science of Speed / AP Racing kit from www.scienceofspeed.com. I seriously believe that it's overkill as a first-step brake upgrade for someone who's just gotten their car and hasn't even done any track events. But since I've actually tracked my car, I have a good idea that the stock-sized brake setup is not what I want in the long run, since I've already managed to beat it up badly, and plan to eventually be running r-compound tires, and someday have forced induction. That's why I'm going for the big brake kit instead of spending the money to freshen-up my stock brakes.

-Mike

 

[erobbins]

This was originally a message I sent yesterday to the PCA folks here in Dallas.... I'll repeat it in "NSX form" here because it is advice that I think everyone should listen to:


The advice I see you have already gotten from others as well as your own assessment is spot on... a multi-point harness system will improve your ability to control the car effectively in two ways: 1. improve seat of the pants feel and 2. not using your appendenges, energy and attention to keep yourself in the seat in the first place.

This has been discussed at great length in this forum before... But I'll summarize my thoughts / cautions here:

1. Do not use a multi-point harness system without a full roll bar
(preferably a cage) in the car. In the event of a rollover, your upper torso has no way to "fall out" of the shoulder straps and keep the cervical region of your spine (head/neck area) from being crushed, snapped or pushed into the thoracic region. Does this sound bad? Yes. It should, because it is. Using the factory 3 point system is SAFER in a vehicle without a proper roll bar / cage.

...now, if you are still willing to undertake the risk:

2. Use a 5th (and even 6th) point / anti-sub strap. To not do this defeats the primary purpose of the harness - safety. In fact, to not do this will put you at greater (almost certain) risk for internal injury than if you had just used the factory 3 point system in a frontal crash. Wrapping the anti-sub belt around the front of the seat doesn't cut it, either. It should be situated such that female passengers look at you in the harness system and ask if the 5th/6th point causes any problems, if you know what I mean. If you're not willing to modify / cut your seat (or use a proper racing seat), rethink the harness idea.

...and if you're STILL willing to go the harness route:

3. Go with 3" SFI homologated belts manufactured in the last 2 years (instead of the less expensive 2" "tuning"-style belts). I have used the Sparco-branded belts made by TRW / Sabelt, and recommend them. In the Grand-Am Cup NSX we just finished building out, we have installed a TEAMTECH harness, and I have found the "vest" system they employ in addition to the 3" belts to be very comfortable. It is also more difficult to accidentally unlock their cam system than others (including Sparco, Simpson, etc.) Also - I would recommend "pull-UP" lap belts... the pull-down belts are a pain in the butt unless you have an F1-class pit crew to help you with them.

...still thinking about it?

4. Use a harness bar to attach the shoulder straps to. It's the proper way to make sure that in the event of a crash, the harness system stays attached to what it is mounted to. I know of people mouting the shoulder straps to the floor without a bar. I wouldn't trust it, and wouldn't do it. You can also loop the harnesses through a bar and mount them to the floor or to the seat mounting bolts directly. Would it work? Maybe, but I don't want to be the one to test that theory. Give me a properly made bar from Dali Racing.

EDR

 

[Ponyboy]

I am new tgo the NSX and to aftermarket mods; so, please bear with me.

Not a problem. These kind of questions and the excellent answers you've received thus far are what makes me proud to be part of the NSX community.

My goal is a street-legal car in which I can safely run at the track with reasonably good performance.

That's where the addiction starts. Street-legal car w/ reasonably good track performance.

After thinking about the issues involved in mod'ing my car, I have come to the conclusion that the best place to start is suspension and breaks. I would appreciate any info. in this area that might be appropriate.

As has been stated previously, the best mod you can do to your car is improving the driver. A stock NSX is no slouch at the track and will be more car than you can handle. That's not to be demeaning at all, it's just that a new track driver will have a lot to learn before pushing the car to it's limits. Things like the line, braking points, turn-in points, exit speed, fun, etc. Make sense? That said, brakes and then maybe suspension could be some good mods after you get some experience. Key word: AFTER.

Second on the list should, I believe, be the engine (exhaust, intake, turbo, etc.). I am not terribly concerned at this time with these items except to ask for your opinions of CompTech.

I think the last thing I'll want to modify is the engine. Since that's the thing that I know the least amount about and the most expensive part to replace should I make a mistake, the engine is not of prime "mod" importance. Oh, and Comptech is great. But talk to Ken about their rotors.

Third are (maybe) body enhancements.

You mean like "working out" right? Yes, getting fiscally fit will dramatically improve your driving skills.

Have I covered all of the bases? Am I missing anything at the macro level?

The only thing I'd like to say more about is the importance of becoming a better driver before you start moding a very good street/track car. I come across a lot of stunning, aesthetically and in engineering, track cars. From Vipers, Corvettes, 911s, 944s, Rufs, Supras, Boxters, M3s - e36 and e46, RX-7's, Panteras, etc. When I first started driving, I'd get passed regularly (Eric, I think you were there, I was the guy who blew up his clutch). As I progressed and got to know the line and some of the basics, I'd pass a few of the higher hp cars - which is a good feeling! After 8 events, I picked up a second set of wheels, stock '91-93, and put some R compounds on them. Even with that setup, which at the time was mostly stock, I was passing even more of them. It's gratifying to have drivers of 450hp+ cars ask you how much hp your Honda has because you were even with them on the straight. The point is that even a decent driver in a bad car is better than a bad driver in a decent car. Much better.

Hope this helps a little.

 

[matteni]

There are many opinions about using a harness bar in an NSX and how safe it is. I don't agree that a harness bar would be any more dangerous in event of a rollover accident but I do think for the stock setup it might be less safe.

In the stock NSX coupe the B pillars are very strong. I have seen an NSX land on it's roof for a prolonged period of time at the track it it holds up remarkably well. I doubt a roll cage would have dramatically improved anything in the instance I saw.

With the stock belts in an accident the pre-tensioners in the belt system pull you against the seat. I doubt anyone would be able to bail out across the seat in an accident. This is my opinion based on my experience with the tensioners in an accident. Basically a stock seat belt is designed to be worn loose but to tighten up in an accident and the fabric has very little elasticity.

With a well designed harness in an accident - the opposite is true. The belts are designed to be worn very tightly and the system is supposed to give during an accident. The fabric has sewn in patches that "tear away" in the event of a severe accident. The idea is to "manage" the G-forces by gradually slowing your body down. In fact - you may have as much or more room to move in event of a collision followed by a roll over - but I doubt it would make little difference.

OK - so ever wonder why race car drivers don't have air bags? It is because the harness effectively uses all the space between the seat and the wheel. In effect you will probably be much closer to the steering wheel when the air bag goes off. Luckily - Honda was one of the pioneers in designing all their air bags that fire up rather then out so I believe this lessons the risk of being injured by the bag in the unlikely event of a serious front end collision at the track.

Do you need a roll cage to do driver's education events - probably not.

Are you less safe with just a harness bar in a NSX coupe for driver's ed events - probably not.

Is it easier to stay planted in the seat and improve your driving and safety with a harness bar for a driver's ed - probably so.

I really love having a harness bar and 3" belts for driving events. I feel it helps me concentrate on the road and not staying in the seat. I feel I am a better driver with it - then without it. That's my 2 cents on the issue - good luck.

 

[erobbins]

Are you less safe with just a harness bar in a NSX coupe for driver's ed events - probably not.

You absolutely are "less safe" using a 4/5/6 point harness versus the 3 point OEM belts in a rollover incident in ANY vehicle without a full cage, period.

I acknowledge that with a multipoint harness you are "more safe" in collisions not involving a rollover, and that these incidents are more common than rollovers at DE events. But - it is the rollover incident without a cage that is more likely to result in spinal cord injury and paralysis than any other.

Anyone who would like to further discuss this issue, or what my professional qualifications are with respect to passenger compartment compromise in rollover or other serious incidents should private message me. I don't want to get into a flame war over this - I just want people to be safe.

EDR

 

[hondaholic]

My goal is a street-legal car in which I can safely run at the track with reasonably good performance.

TIA [/B]

I am not sure you guys are listening close enough. I get the impression that this guy is not likely to enter One Lap of America anytime soon. It sounds like he is excited about his new NSX and wants to have a little fun modding it. We all will agree that a few mods like suspension and I/H/E and brakes can add some excitement.

When he's ready to rip out the interior, get tire warmers, and add two-way telemetry maybe he can get the roll cage and the bleeders.

Until then, there is plenty of fun to be had at 60% of the NSX performance envelope which is "safe" with "reasonably" good performance.

 

[nsxtasy]

Re: Re: From scratch

I am not sure you guys are listening close enough. I get the impression that this guy is not likely to enter One Lap of America anytime soon. It sounds like he is excited about his new NSX and wants to have a little fun modding it. We all will agree that a few mods like suspension and I/H/E and brakes can add some excitement.

When he's ready to rip out the interior, get tire warmers, and add two-way telemetry maybe he can get the roll cage and the bleeders.

Until then, there is plenty of fun to be had at 60% of the NSX performance envelope which is "safe" with "reasonably" good performance.

Some of the people who have posted in this topic are listening. People like DanO, grippgoat, and myself have all said to take the car to the track first and get some experience before considering mods. Excitement? You will get plenty of excitement out of a stock NSX on the track. Mods won't make any difference when you're first starting out on the track.

The simple fact is, as a novice at the track, you won't be using more than 20 percent of the capabilities of the NSX. You will be working on your own limits as a driver. I know the mentality; people who have never been to the track think, "I'm a good driver and I'm going to blow by everyone there, and that's why I need the extra mods." Then they get to the track, and find that there are instructors and experienced drivers in cars like a bone-stock Mini or a Neon that can blow them away - because of experience. And then they realize that their own driving capabilities are nowhere near the limits of those slower cars, and adding extra mods to an NSX isn't going to help them go faster.

The misconception is that you can go faster by spending lots of money. The fact is that it doesn't happen this way until you get a fair amount of experience at the track. But I think this is something that many folks here are already saying.

 

[MarkB]

I have decided that, with the exception of the harness and bar, I will be leaving my NSX stock for the time being.

Thanks to all who responded; Especially to those of you who advised making a few track runs before mod'ing the car. You broughtme back to my senses.