Ferrari hybrid takes a cue from NSX

[PKim]

https://jalopnik.com/ferraris-hybrid-supercar-will-have-three-electric-motor-1834916610

Interesting article about the Ferrari hybrid that is soon to be coming out. It states that it will come with 3 electric engines, 2 that drives the front wheels and one for the transmission, noting very similar to the NC1 NSX. So is the NSX again upping the game for Ferrari? Ferrari which comes with the price tag of $667,720, which will probably soon go to 2 Mill, yet the $200,000 NSX continue to fall and will probably be under $100,000.
I think this proves that the NSX is undervalued! Might have to get one next to my Na1!

 

[MaxGeek]

Porsche 918 also has two electric motors in the front and one in the rear with the ICE engine. What are we trying to prove again?

You can have two different cars with the same drivetrain setup and they can be completely different.

 

[liftnot]

FWIW, Acura RLX also has 3 +/- motors way before 2015 all be it in the reverse configuration and rear steering was an advantage as the new NSX torque vectoring now. Nothing new. There was Youtube video from Acura on the RLX but was deleted since the birth of the new NSX.

 

[Valkyrie Pilot]

Porsche 918 also has two electric motors in the front and one in the rear with the ICE engine. What are we trying to prove again?

You can have two different cars with the same drivetrain setup and they can be completely different.

False.

The 918 Spyder has only 1 electric motor in the front.

 

[LandLawMan]

False.

The 918 Spyder has only 1 electric motor in the front.

....and because it only has one electric motor for both front wheels, then — technically — it doesn’t really provide true “torque vectoring”. Rather, it (like many other models) provides BRAKE vectoring. Right, Valkyrie?

or am I wrong?

 

[Sterling Sackey]

....and because it only has one electric motor for both front wheels, then — technically — it doesn’t really provide true “torque vectoring”. Rather, it (like many other models) provides BRAKE vectoring. Right, Valkyrie?

or am I wrong?

One motor results in no "vectoring" at all, just forward power and (if used to its full potential) braking power.

 

[LandLawMan]

Right. How can these car reviewers publish that the 918 has TORQUE Vectoring?!?!? That’s so.....lazy.

 

[Sterling Sackey]

Right. How can these car reviewers publish that the 918 has TORQUE Vectoring?!?!? That’s so.....lazy.

Because it does have torque vectoring, on the rear axle, via a mechanical limited slip differential connected to clutch packs (as far as I understand it). Porsche calls it PTV+, aka "Porsche Torque Vectoring."

It can also brake the front wheels as needed to help the car turn, but I would classify this as brake vectoring rather than torque vectoring.

Edit: Doing more reading, it looks like the PTV+ system as a whole is just brake vectoring all around, hard to really understand for sure.

 

[LandLawMan]

From DriveTribe.com:

[FONT=&quot]“Real torque vectoring can only be applied in AWD hybrid or fully electric vehicles. As much as I hate to admit it, electric motors give engineers much more versatility over how they can manipulate torque and use it to help you go as fast as possible. Electric supercars like the Mercedes SLS Electric Drive use 4 electric motors – one powering each wheel. Since each wheel carries its own individual power source, the total power of the car can be divided up and distributed freely between all 4 wheels. It's mind-boggling stuff!![/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Even in hybrid cars, like the Honda NSX, the 2 electric motors powering the front axle – 1 motor for each wheel – also work completely independently of one another, meaning power can be applied to the outside wheel, and drag to the inside to tug the nose in with frantic urge.”
[/FONT]

 

[Sterling Sackey]

From DriveTribe.com:

“Real torque vectoring can only be applied in AWD hybrid or fully electric vehicles. As much as I hate to admit it, electric motors give engineers much more versatility over how they can manipulate torque and use it to help you go as fast as possible. Electric supercars like the Mercedes SLS Electric Drive use 4 electric motors – one powering each wheel. Since each wheel carries its own individual power source, the total power of the car can be divided up and distributed freely between all 4 wheels. It's mind-boggling stuff!!
Even in hybrid cars, like the Honda NSX, the 2 electric motors powering the front axle – 1 motor for each wheel – also work completely independently of one another, meaning power can be applied to the outside wheel, and drag to the inside to tug the nose in with frantic urge.”

He makes a good point but it's not true at all that "real" torque vectoring must come individual and/or electric motors at each wheel - rather, an individual electric motor system will provide the *most effective* torque vectoring.

A proper mechanical limited-slip differential hooked up to clutch packs to direct the flow of power will be able to, if developed correctly, direct the flow of power just as well as a fully independent electric motor setup. That said, this system isn't going to allow you to provide "reverse torque" like electric motors can to brake a wheel.

I had a electro-mechanical torque vectoring differential from the factory on my 2015 VW GTI, it worked extremely well and was able to direct 100% of the engine's power to either front wheel. The Honda Prelude Type SH was the first Honda to use a system like this, which then later became SH-AWD.

 

[Valkyrie Pilot]

He makes a good point but it's not true at all that "real" torque vectoring must come individual and/or electric motors at each wheel - rather, an individual electric motor system will provide the *most effective* torque vectoring.

A proper mechanical limited-slip differential hooked up to clutch packs to direct the flow of power will be able to, if developed correctly, direct the flow of power just as well as a fully independent electric motor setup. That said, this system isn't going to allow you to provide "reverse torque" like electric motors can to brake a wheel.

I had a electro-mechanical torque vectoring differential from the factory on my 2015 VW GTI, it worked extremely well and was able to direct 100% of the engine's power to either front wheel. The Honda Prelude Type SH was the first Honda to use a system like this, which then later became SH-AWD.

Makes sense.

What do you mean by "reverse torque" provided by electric motors?

Do they literally try to go in reverse? Or is it just drag from electric regen?

 

[Sterling Sackey]

Makes sense.

What do you mean by "reverse torque" provided by electric motors?

Do they literally try to go in reverse? Or is it just drag from electric regen?

According to Honda's original press releases on the 2017 NSX, the front motors can apply actual negative torque to either front wheel.

I'm not sure how it is done on the road car, but I found this for the Pikes Peak 4-motor EV NSX: "During reverse and deceleration, the ring gear is fixed by the brake to reverse the direction of torque."

 

[LandLawMan]

Theoretically, yes, one front wheel COULD actually change direction. In theory.
See MotorTrend YouTube, episode 143, entitled “NSX, The Slowest Supercar in the World?”

The tester’s explanation as to why he felt the steering was so numb, is because with ‘reverse torque’, the steering had to be ‘dumbed-down’, so as to prevent the steering wheel from tearing your fingers off during extreme torque vectoring.

Actually, this is a really good episode. Explains a lot. It’s worth watching.

 

[Sterling Sackey]

Theoretically, yes, one front wheel COULD actually change direction. In theory.
See MotorTrend YouTube, episode 143, entitled “NSX, The Slowest Supercar in the World?”

The tester’s explanation as to why he felt the steering was so numb, is because with ‘reverse torque’, the steering had to be ‘dumbed-down’, so as to prevent the steering wheel from tearing your fingers off during extreme torque vectoring.

Actually, this is a really good episode. Explains a lot. It’s worth watching.

Good video. Obviously there is no scenario in which the systems would actually start spinning the wheel the opposite way, but the fact that they are "trying to" while the car is moving forward is what provides such effective turn-in abilities.