External oil cooler on boosted Nsx?

[jaffaz32]

Just wondering if guys with turbo Nsx's run with external oil coolers?

If so how is it plumbed in?

Have the SOS external oil cooler kit. Works really well.

Just wondering how it would work if the car was boosted.

Might have to be relocated also perhaps.

 

[jorligan]

Planning on it. Will be getting the oil cooler setup from Shad at Driving Ambition. Similar setup to the one that 1KTOGO has on his car.

 

[TURBO2GO]

I feel dumb not knowing this but isn't there a factory oil cooler? I thought there was?

 

[CL65 Captain]

I feel dumb not knowing this but isn't there a factory oil cooler? I thought there was?

yes. It is very small and sits right above the oil filter. The problem is that 1. it is small 2. it is water cooled via the same system that cools the engine. Thus when engine is hot you are "cooling" it with the same hot water that is trying to cool the engine.

 

[jaffaz32]

Interesting...

Is the Driving Ambitions unit a off the shelf kit or... custom made upon request?

 

[CB72]

I wanted to buy one but got no answers from D.A.

 

[ken sampson]

If you cannot find anything I have a custom made billet part that bolts to the engine where the oil filter housing bolts. It has two A.N. fittings that would run to any cooler you deside on.
Ken

 

[jaffaz32]

I've also tried contacting D.A few times via email, never get a reply.

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As i already have the SOS kit, is relocating it a easy enough option?

Can it be any height? Or does it need to be above the sump or something along those lines?

 

[1K2GO]

Shad is alive and well and extremely busy with customer cars (mine) so leave him to his business. :tongue:
He's also way understaffed and has very little time for phones and email while he's busy with customer cars (mine) so leave him to his business. :tongue:

This is the Driving Ambition fender mounted oil cooler kit installed on my supercharged NA1 earlier this year.

 

[Operator]

I dont know what kind of adapter you have but you may have a broblem like
all dudes who are using "sandwich" adapter between OEM oil cooler and filter.
READ:
http://www.nsxprime.com/forum/showthread.php/158232-Amw-oil-cooler-kit
AN10 Hose ..if you want to keep OIL flow same as OEM you need to drill
3 pieces 6 mm holes to adapter .
AN12.. 2 holes to adapter is needed to avoid OIL pump relief valve"problems"
If you dont ...you have very high presure on oil pump...this will put
lots of stress to stock oil pump ! And upper part of engine does not have presure what it should be.
Even with these "by-pass" holes there is still lots of oil flow tru oil cooler.
NSX HAS 17 mm ID oil lines so dont restrict your oil flow !

You dont have rubber mount between Chassi and cooler ! Not good desing

Maatsi

 

[ken sampson]

View attachment 95636This is the adaptor I fabricated. This was mainly used to run a custom oversized ATI dampener and pulley to raise the boost pressure on my SC. I have both available.View attachment 95634View attachment 95635

 

[DDozier]

I have wondered what would happen if you took the coolant feed lines on the coolant side of the existing oil cooler and ran that coolant through a fender mounted WTA cooler. This way you would be adding to the total cooling systems capacity and reducing the oil temps without making any changes to the existing oil system design. If the coolant could be cooled from the normal coolant temp of say 140-160 degrees at track temps to 120-130 degrees then run through the oil cooler would that be enough capacity to make a difference. For reliability sakes extending the coolant line and running it to an external cooler seems much safer than adding high pressure oil lines, oil filter adapters, and possible oil pressure drops.

Another thing to think about is replacing the coolant lines with larger lines allowing more coolant flow through the cooler. I guess I can look at doing some testing with a few temp sensors to start logging the inlet and outlet temps of the existing cooler but I do not want to chase this down if someone already knows if this is a viable option.

Dave

 

[jaffaz32]

Just wondering how it would be plumbed in? before or after the turbo?

I think there is advantages for both.

If before the turbo then the turbo would have a cooler oil feed but surely would be mega hot after passing the turbo.

Or after the turbo returning back to the block? then the engine would benefit from the cooler oil.

I would imagine after the turbo is best so the engine would benefit.

this is assuming the oil feed to the turbo is from the sandwich plate, would this be how it works?

Then i you have to ask how does gravity come in to play? because the turbo would be lower from the feed entering it, then the oil cooler would be higher than the oil feed outlet and back to the return point.


Out of curiosity the turbo oil feed what is the usual route? I mean where does the turbo get its feed from and where does it return?

 

[TURBO2GO]

Just wondering how it would be plumbed in? before or after the turbo?

I think there is advantages for both.

If before the turbo then the turbo would have a cooler oil feed but surely would be mega hot after passing the turbo.

Or after the turbo returning back to the block? then the engine would benefit from the cooler oil.

I would imagine after the turbo is best so the engine would benefit.

this is assuming the oil feed to the turbo is from the sandwich plate, would this be how it works?

Then i you have to ask how does gravity come in to play? because the turbo would be lower from the feed entering it, then the oil cooler would be higher than the oil feed outlet and back to the return point.


Out of curiosity the turbo oil feed what is the usual route? I mean where does the turbo get its feed from and where does it return?

If you are talking about Dave's car, he is using aerochargers and they don't have any oil OR coolant lines.

 

[DDozier]

I cannot think of a reason this will not work, we are talking about $50 in parts and maybe an hour or two to connect the hoses and mount the cooler. So this is what I am thinking after studying the OEM cooler design. instead of adding to the high pressure oil system by adding an oil cooler and sandwich plate my thought was to add a separate low pressure cooler to the engine coolant right before it went into the OEM oil cooler. this way the coolant servicing the OEM cooler would be as cool as possible to extract as much heat as possible from the oil without altering the factory oil system at all. I am thinking this is a much safer prospect than altering the OEM oil system and running the hot, high pressure oil through a cooler of its own. The added oil cooler may be more effective and efficient but if I can achieve a favorable result without modifying the oil system I think it is worth a try.

I really do not know if this will work or not, but I do not see how it could cause any harm, I do not think there would be a danger of over-cooling the engine oil but without actually hooking the thing up there is no way to know if it will be effective enough to make a difference. I do need to verify the coolant flow direction to make sure I have the correct line to intercept but according to the service manual this is the “line in” and the other line is the “line out”.

Do you guys think this will work? I am willing to try it but I guess I am looking for some encouragement before I waste a bunch of time on the project.

This is the existing OIL Cooler Layout:

This is with the additional cooler for the engine coolant prior to the OIL Cooler:



Dave

 

[RYU]

Dave,

I've always been of this same mindset. Cool the coolant and it will cool the oil. The only questionable part of this is if the factory oil cooler has enough internal surface area to remove the heat from the hot oil. It's awfully small. We are testing a high capacity copper based radiator now which we believe will have enough cooling capacity to cool the coolant enough to benefit the factory Oil to Water cooler. Your idea is taking this concept to the next level. I also like that the oil temp is kept in check by the coolant temp. Its an elegant solution... no thermostats.. no fans.. to fuss with and go wrong.

I like the air to oil cooler in the side vent idea. The unfortunate thing is that you can only fit a small cooler there and the air passing thru it has to go through an orifice that is even smaller by about 40%. The biggest Setrab oil cooler I can fit there (same idea as Shad's and Operator's solution) is only rated to cool an engine if about 100hp. The cooling coefficient of oil to air is also very poor - I guess it's better than nothing but I still prefer a well designed Oil to Water.

On a different note.. I was going thru my old LS1 stuff and noticed I have one of these (see below). It's a stock GM power steering cooler which uses the engine coolant to remove heat from the power steering fluid. I suppose it can be adapted quite easily to cool the oil in our NSX. I just don't know what max PSI the low side of a power steering pump runs at.

If anyone has a spare OEM NSX oil cooler lying around. I'm happy to take a look at it to see if I can have one machined at a much higher capacity.

Edit to Add:
Research tells me this GM style cooler might be a Laminova style cooler. This is getting more interesting...

 

[CB72]

Just wondering how it would be plumbed in? before or after the turbo?

I think there is advantages for both.

If before the turbo then the turbo would have a cooler oil feed but surely would be mega hot after passing the turbo.

Or after the turbo returning back to the block? then the engine would benefit from the cooler oil.

I would imagine after the turbo is best so the engine would benefit.

this is assuming the oil feed to the turbo is from the sandwich plate, would this be how it works?

Then i you have to ask how does gravity come in to play? because the turbo would be lower from the feed entering it, then the oil cooler would be higher than the oil feed outlet and back to the return point.


Out of curiosity the turbo oil feed what is the usual route? I mean where does the turbo get its feed from and where does it return?

I have a LoveFab stage 2 turbo on my car and judging from the pictures I have, the oil feed comes from the oil to water intercooler located behind the oil filter and the oil return line goes directly into the oil sump.
This setup only works if the oil outlet from the turbo sits higher than the entry in the oil sump as there is apparently very little pressure in the circuit.
In fact the oil that comes out of the turbo flows under it's own gravity back into the sump.
In the beginning, my oil return line was not set correctly and the back pressure that was created caused the turbo to "swallow" the oil that in turn soon came out of the exhaust.
Not nice to see the result in your rear view mirror!
So in summary, you definitely cannot place the oil cooler in the return line and I believe it would work no better in the feed line given that there is only(?) a limited quantity of oil that flows through there.
I'll let the experts develop further.
Here's a view of the return line coming out of the turbo during installation.

PS: when is the Euro event taking place???

 

[TURBO2GO]

I cannot think of a reason this will not work, we are talking about $50 in parts and maybe an hour or two to connect the hoses and mount the cooler. So this is what I am thinking after studying the OEM cooler design. instead of adding to the high pressure oil system by adding an oil cooler and sandwich plate my thought was to add a separate low pressure cooler to the engine coolant right before it went into the OEM oil cooler. this way the coolant servicing the OEM cooler would be as cool as possible to extract as much heat as possible from the oil without altering the factory oil system at all. I am thinking this is a much safer prospect than altering the OEM oil system and running the hot, high pressure oil through a cooler of its own. The added oil cooler may be more effective and efficient but if I can achieve a favorable result without modifying the oil system I think it is worth a try.

I really do not know if this will work or not, but I do not see how it could cause any harm, I do not think there would be a danger of over-cooling the engine oil but without actually hooking the thing up there is no way to know if it will be effective enough to make a difference. I do need to verify the coolant flow direction to make sure I have the correct line to intercept but according to the service manual this is the “line in” and the other line is the “line out”.

Do you guys think this will work? I am willing to try it but I guess I am looking for some encouragement before I waste a bunch of time on the project.

This is the existing OIL Cooler Layout:

This is with the additional cooler for the engine coolant prior to the OIL Cooler:



Dave

Dave did anything ever come of this idea?

 

[DDozier]

Dave did anything ever come of this idea?

The only thing that came of it was the theory that it might work, actually I am sure it will have a positive effect just not sure if it will be effective enough. I have not had any time this year with work, track, and the other NSX projects I already have going so it got shelved as a winter project. May have news about it this spring if I have time over the winter to get caught up.

Dave

 

[RYU]

[MENTION=4799]DDozier[/MENTION] any luck testing your oil cooler design BTW?

Was at Thermal Club this wknd for NSXPO and although my ECT ran a cool 195-203°F all day long, my oil temp warning alarm came on at 270°F later in the day. I run a side mount 13 row setrab oil cooler and I typically hover at around 230-250°F on most days. It was really hot out there... I'm thinking of running a mocal laminova O2W oil cooler since I have a lot of capacity in my coolant it appears. I asked a few guys out there and a lot of folks were hitting 230°F+ in ect and still climbin which was interesting.

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Some peak readings her for those interested. My guess was track temps were probably 130°F or so. Ambient was 100+

 

[DDozier]

[MENTION=4799]DDozier[/MENTION] any luck testing your oil cooler design BTW?

No too much track time not enough shop time. That is what happens when you do not have to wrench on your track weapon, unlike the rest of my running buddies. Most of them spent a few weekends tackling gremlins and unusual issues that came up. We did not have a single track event that everyone showed up at, most of the time it has been 4-5 of us instead of our usual 8-10 guys. I did miss Road America in August due to a transmission issue but had that problem solved by NCM in September. Next stop Putnam, Road Atlanta, and COTA, maybe Sebring.

Dave

 

[Mac Attack]

[MENTION=4799]DDozier[/MENTION] any luck testing your oil cooler design BTW?

Was at Thermal Club this wknd for NSXPO and although my ECT ran a cool 195-203°F all day long, my oil temp warning alarm came on at 270°F later in the day. I run a side mount 13 row setrab oil cooler and I typically hover at around 230-250°F on most days. It was really hot out there... I'm thinking of running a mocal laminova O2W oil cooler since I have a lot of capacity in my coolant it appears. I asked a few guys out there and a lot of folks were hitting 230°F+ in ect and still climbin which was interesting.

- - - Updated - - -

Some peak readings her for those interested. My guess was track temps were probably 130°F or so. Ambient was 100+

Do you really anticipate doing more events like this in the sweltering heat? Is it worth the headaches and added complexity to accommodate those few track days?

270F isn't "that" bad in those conditions. Measured in the pan? Stock engine with CTSC, right? Good 30wt oil?

Personally, I'd leave it alone and just back off a bit if it were to rise above 270F.

Dave

 

[RYU]

Do you really anticipate doing more events like this in the sweltering heat? Is it worth the headaches and added complexity to accommodate those few track days?

270F isn't "that" bad in those conditions. Measured in the pan? Stock engine with CTSC, right? Good 30wt oil?

Personally, I'd leave it alone and just back off a bit if it were to rise above 270F.

Dave

How's it going Dave!? Good hearing from you bud.

I hear you. Is it worth it? It's hard to say. Due to busy work schedules... I tend to book track days weeks/months in advance. With CA weather it's not always going to be 75F. It's just a buzz kill when you're 3 laps into the session and you need to back off. Greasy tires are manageable but when internals start to run hot it becomes a mental distraction. I'm so close to getting my car in a set-it-and-forget it state... If all it takes is to solve this oil cooling issue I think I want to just finish it off.

This was measured coming out of the SOS sandwich plate. Its hotter at the pan, right? How much hotter you think [MENTION=12356]Mac Attack[/MENTION]? 20F+ hotter?

- - - Updated - - -

Stock 3.0L with cometic gaskets with the Autorotor CTSC and ~20% meth/water mix for cooling only.

Using Pennzoil Ultra Platinum Synth 30wt. I'll be sending in my oil to Blackstone after this track day.

 

[Mac Attack]

How's it going Dave!? Good hearing from you bud.

I hear you. Is it worth it? It's hard to say. Due to busy work schedules... I tend to book track days weeks/months in advance. With CA weather it's not always going to be 75F. It's just a buzz kill when you're 3 laps into the session and you need to back off. Greasy tires are manageable but when internals start to run hot it becomes a mental distraction. I'm so close to getting my car in a set-it-and-forget it state... If all it takes is to solve this oil cooling issue I think I want to just finish it off.

This was measured coming out of the SOS sandwich plate. Its hotter at the pan, right? How much hotter you think [MENTION=12356]Mac Attack[/MENTION]? 20F+ hotter?

- - - Updated - - -

Stock 3.0L with cometic gaskets with the Autorotor CTSC and ~20% meth/water mix for cooling only.

Using Pennzoil Ultra Platinum Synth 30wt. I'll be sending in my oil to Blackstone after this track day.

Not too bad, hope you're doing well.

I understand....

Still, before doing something drastic like an o2w cooler, I would double the size and relocate to where Mark911 put his (check his website for pics). That's basically where I put my combined 60k btu/hr coolers (and a thermostat). I no longer have the OEM oil cooler with the dry sump. While you're at it, go with at least 12AN instead of the 10AN.

I'm not familiar with the sandwich plates. I assume it is measuring pre-cooler (OEM water cooler and your supplemental air cooler) or your bearings would have failed by now. If it is measuring pre-cooler, based on the oil pump housing, then it is also measuring temperature after the pump. That would be the hottest part. Your oil pump (any pump really) adds heat to the oil due to it's inefficiency. Theoretically, that would be hotter than measuring it in the pan.

My $0.02!

 

[RYU]

Geez! Dry sump...

You really need to update your build thread!