Everyone Here Needs To Wake Up and Smell The Roses

[NSX-SA]

I have been reading these posts on the proposed new, almost here, just around the corner, new prototype, latest rendition, speculation, rumour, CEO speak, a mate told me so, yadda yadda yadda for years and what do we have - ZIP.

What we have had is every excuse under the rising sun - here we go - lack of potential market, Acura brand diminishing, no direction/leadership, will it be MR or FR, Global Financial Crisis, now the crisis in Japan with the Earth Quake and Tsunami ( I’m sure there's dozens more reasons ).

I hate to bring this up but the last time a NSX replacement was on the cards the G.F.C. hit the world and Honda ran for the hills and went all green on us.

With the devastating earth quake and tsunami that hit northern Japan, Honda has shut most if not all production plants in the region until later this week when a decision on whether their suppliers will have the ability to supply the necessary parts to assemble their vehicles.

I know this may be a pessimistic view but this could be another reason not to spend any unnecessary funds on a Halo car that will provide little or no financial returns to Honda especially with the future of production in Japan uncertain in the short term.

We all need to be realistic and understand that the NSX was and will always be a one off. There’s way too much talk trying to drag the 1990 based NSX into the 21st century and compare to current cars such as the Audi R8/10, Nissan GTR R35, Porsche, Ferrari etc. to a 20 year old car. Even the last 2005 NSX is a 20 year old car. If Honda spent even half of the original development funds in the later years on the NSX then we would have a supercar that wouldn't be looked at as - gee nice car to drive but doesn’t stack up to anywhere near its rivals in today’s terms.

Honda made a decision years ago that the NSX was it, no more, nada, that’s it. I believe the only people that haven’t realised there's not going to be another NSX is us. We are the only ones that are holding onto the past where as the rest of the world has moved on.

I will state the bleeding obvious - there will be no further, other, replacement NSX........

 

[robbiedawg]

you're probably right. it did occur to me that if they were developing a new one right now,and it came out,say, in two years and cost about $140,000.,maybe i could afford a used one around year 2030,at which point i might be old.

 

[mlambert890]

you're probably right. it did occur to me that if they were developing a new one right now,and it came out,say, in two years and cost about $140,000.,maybe i could afford a used one around year 2030,at which point i might be old.

The Japanese marques go into this space half-hearted, or weirdly.

I'm one of the (literally) few people who actually bought a new NSX later in its life (I bought my 03 in 03 and then sold it for a 911 in 06) but I have to admit that it was hard spending $90k on a Japanese car.

I don't *want* to fall victim to that, but it's hard to help. When you are spending big $ part of the spend is on exclusivity - it's simply a reality.

There are, of course, folks who will buy the LFA, but a lot? Prob not. There are folks who spend big $ on the GT-R, but really not a lot at all - similar to NSX numbers.

Compare that even to a monster like the Ferrari 360CS (which is enormously expensive) and it can't possibly add up to a Japanese marque CFO to authorize production of these halo cars.

Japans image, and the huge HUGE bulk of their customers, is practical, safe, reliable transport. The NSX is a cool anomaly. The GT-R is a weirdly obscure anomaly that 99% of the world doesn't even recognize as being anything unique. The LFA is an *extremely* bizarre anomaly. Given economic conditions and the state of Japan currently, it is really unlikely these anomalies will continue.

End of the day, it is a LOT easier for Ferrari, Porsche, Lambo, Lotus, etc to produce exotic sports cars that people find a way to buy.

If I decide to unload this NSX (my third) and replace it with something, I will almost certainly stop playing games and just finally bite the bullet on a Gallardo or F430 and then just keep that until I keel over (or my wife murders me for the ins $)

 

[Dhalsim]

hahahahaha

Wow...thanks for waking up all us snoozing, carnation smelling Primers. What would we have done if you hadn't woken us up from our slumber?

And here we all were waiting to put our deposits down on the next NSX. We certainly owe you our deepest gratitude for your brilliant insight.

 

[V.Lats97nsx]

Great post and great replies, I also think acura/honda have been gone too long from the exotic scene. The acura dealership in my city doesn't offer complete coolant flushes. They are too far behing in the technology to even service my 97 nsx. Imagine the boat loads of money the dealerships will have to unload to get the technology so they could work on the new nsx. It doesn't make sence. Everyone knows there final shot was in 02.

 

[Juice]

Acura is behind in service. Well there is a shocker! :biggrin:

 

[captainjman]

I have been reading these posts on the proposed new, almost here, just around the corner, new prototype, latest rendition, speculation, rumour, CEO speak, a mate told me so, yadda yadda yadda for years and what do we have - ZIP.

What we have had is every excuse under the rising sun - here we go - lack of potential market, Acura brand diminishing, no direction/leadership, will it be MR or FR, Global Financial Crisis, now the crisis in Japan with the Earth Quake and Tsunami ( I’m sure there's dozens more reasons ).

I hate to bring this up but the last time a NSX replacement was on the cards the G.F.C. hit the world and Honda ran for the hills and went all green on us.

With the devastating earth quake and tsunami that hit northern Japan, Honda has shut most if not all production plants in the region until later this week when a decision on whether their suppliers will have the ability to supply the necessary parts to assemble their vehicles.

I know this may be a pessimistic view but this could be another reason not to spend any unnecessary funds on a Halo car that will provide little or no financial returns to Honda especially with the future of production in Japan uncertain in the short term.

We all need to be realistic and understand that the NSX was and will always be a one off. There’s way too much talk trying to drag the 1990 based NSX into the 21st century and compare to current cars such as the Audi R8/10, Nissan GTR R35, Porsche, Ferrari etc. to a 20 year old car. Even the last 2005 NSX is a 20 year old car. If Honda spent even half of the original development funds in the later years on the NSX then we would have a supercar that wouldn't be looked at as - gee nice car to drive but doesn’t stack up to anywhere near its rivals in today’s terms.

Honda made a decision years ago that the NSX was it, no more, nada, that’s it. I believe the only people that haven’t realised there's not going to be another NSX is us. We are the only ones that are holding onto the past where as the rest of the world has moved on.

I will state the bleeding obvious - there will be no further, other, replacement NSX........

That was uplifting

 

[NSX-SA]

That was uplifting

Lol sorry to break it to you so bluntly but it had to be said. Its like knowing your relationship has gone south and not having the balls to admit its over and we need to move on and go our separate ways....

Dear John,

Its not you its me - i'm sorry to have to say this but the relationship we have had over the past 20 years is over.

Yours faithfully,

Honda

 

[Dynamic-uzed-auto]

I agree and some wealthy clients of mines said they would never spend over $70k on an Acura even if it was superior to a r8,lamb or Ferrari which they all presently own.

 

[Honcho]

I think we are really missing the picture here. Due mostly to the passage of time, the discussion of the "New NSX" has devolved into a fantasy wet dream about a $300,000+ hypercar like the Lexus LF-A, Ferrari Enzo or Bugatti Veryon. The NSX was never this car. Let me repeat. The NSX was never this car. Honda was working on something that may have fit in that category - the HSV-10 - but that project is DEAD and will only live on in a somewhat-related vehicle racing in Super GT.

We all love our NSXs. And, in some ways, I think we elevate the car in our minds to the stratospheric height described above. But the reality is that the NSX is just a sports car. Honda wanted to make a sports car in 1989, that's all. They did it the Honda way, which means they used all their technology and know-how to make the best sports car in the world. They succeeded. But, at the end of the day, the NSX was a $60,000 two-seater sports car that delivered a refined and extremely enjoyable driving experience. It looked cool and had lots of new technology, but it did not deliver hypercar performance. At no time did Honda ever imply or intend the NSX to compete with the Porsche 959, Ferrari F40 or similar vehicles.

So, NSX-SA is right and he is wrong. He is right because Honda will never make a hypercar. As I've discussed here and in other threads, we are losing sight of the fact that Honda never made a hypercar, so his statement is not that revelatory. But, NSX-SA is wrong because Honda will make another sports car. In fact, they already have- the CR-Z. Obviously, the CR-Z is not in the same market category as the NSX and Honda recognizes this. But, the CR-Z is allowing them to test the water with respect to a hybrid sports car with a low-cost model, thus avoiding the risk of a hybrid NSX bombing. Indeed, the only reason we are not seeing a NSX replacement in the appropriate market category (i.e., $50k - $70k) is that Honda still has not decided what direction it wants to take with respect to powertrain. I think Honda is leaning toward a V6 hybrid, but they may be waiting to mature the technology before jumping into the relative low volume sports market. The next-gen IMA hybrid is right around the corner (2012 Civic I think) and it's supposed to be pretty neat. If that launch is successful, then look for a new sports car using a tuned version of that powerplant. If not, we may have to continue to wait. Of course, by then we will be equating the new NSX to a jet-powered drag car.

 

[Keahistight]

Or ... with the cup half full ... we all will own the last model car which will never be replaced by a "newer" model and has timeless looks and style and we can watch it go down in an auto makers history has their Halo car.

 

[NSX-SA]

I think we are really missing the picture here. Due mostly to the passage of time, the discussion of the "New NSX" has devolved into a fantasy wet dream about a $300,000+ hypercar like the Lexus LF-A, Ferrari Enzo or Bugatti Veryon. The NSX was never this car. Let me repeat. The NSX was never this car. Honda was working on something that may have fit in that category - the HSV-10 - but that project is DEAD and will only live on in a somewhat-related vehicle racing in Super GT.

Totally agree - because there's been relatively little or no progress on the NSX for 15yrs we all wish and dream the car developed with time and the competition, into something truly special but sadly as each year went by the NSX went backwards.

We all love our NSXs. And, in some ways, I think we elevate the car in our minds to the stratospheric height described above. But the reality is that the NSX is just a sports car. Honda wanted to make a sports car in 1989, that's all. They did it the Honda way, which means they used all their technology and know-how to make the best sports car in the world. They succeeded. But, at the end of the day, the NSX was a $60,000 two-seater sports car that delivered a refined and extremely enjoyable driving experience. It looked cool and had lots of new technology, but it did not deliver hypercar performance. At no time did Honda ever imply or intend the NSX to compete with the Porsche 959, Ferrari F40 or similar vehicles.

Look i love my NSX its truly an amazing car for its time, does have timeless lines and with the right mods can be dragged into the 21st way beyond where most other cars can in the same era. The exotic car group I’m involved in http://www.aussieexotics.com here in Australia have F360, F430, 458', all the Lambo's and Porsche's, BMW, Lotus etc and my NSX as the poor cousin. The one comment mostly mentioned about my car is that they can't believe how quick it is and how great it sounds. Having said the they still look at the NSX as a 20yr old sports car that punches well above its weight.

So, NSX-SA is right and he is wrong. He is right because Honda will never make a hypercar. As I've discussed here and in other threads, we are losing sight of the fact that Honda never made a hypercar, so his statement is not that revelatory. But, NSX-SA is wrong because Honda will make another sports car. In fact, they already have- the CR-Z. Obviously, the CR-Z is not in the same market category as the NSX and Honda recognizes this. But, the CR-Z is allowing them to test the water with respect to a hybrid sports car with a low-cost model, thus avoiding the risk of a hybrid NSX bombing. Indeed, the only reason we are not seeing a NSX replacement in the appropriate market category (i.e., $50k - $70k) is that Honda still has not decided what direction it wants to take with respect to powertrain. I think Honda is leaning toward a V6 hybrid, but they may be waiting to mature the technology before jumping into the relative low volume sports market. The next-gen IMA hybrid is right around the corner (2012 Civic I think) and it's supposed to be pretty neat. If that launch is successful, then look for a new sports car using a tuned version of that powerplant. If not, we may have to continue to wait. Of course, by then we will be equating the new NSX to a jet-powered drag car.

I agree and dissagree. Firstly all i said was i think we all should realise and understand if there was going to be a NSX replacement then we would have had it years ago. I agree there will never be another/replacement NSX from Honda.

I don’t think i ever mentioned anything about Honda making or proposing a Hypercar. They don’t have what it takes anymore, no vision, no direction, no leadership.

The CR-Z is laughable as a sports car in reality its just a souped up (Aussie slang for modified) shopping trolley. Honda has taken the direction that all they will make in the future are small green buzz box's. Just look at Acura you guys have in the USA supposed to be a luxury brand, man we have simular stuff here and that’s not the luxury brand i would spend money on.

At the end of the day what i have tried to put out there is yes we all love our NSX's they are what they are a piece of motoring pleasure, performance and technology for its time and there will never be another car like it from Honda. There's been too much dream scaping on the future of the NSX when there is no future NXS, we all should understand that.

 

[tbromley]

i have to agree with Honcho on this - there will be another significant Acura sports car. I don't think they're done. They have lacked vision and direction in the sports car world but they are just kind of hedging their bets.

Don't you guys think that Honda has seen what Porsche is doing - surely you don't think they're blind to what other sports car manufacturers are doing - do you - the CR-Z is an experimet. But it shows what is happening in the market - that's performance, fun and gas savings! Yep that's right - they are finding their way and working thru the scenario of just what kind of hybrid sports car will American buyers purchase! They are trying to check out where to take and how far to take the Acura/Honda sports car.

Because of the oil crisis we're going thru there is a lot of pressure. Honda has to get it right! Honda has always been a good copy cat manufacturer.

I wouldn't give up just yet if you ask me.

 

[goa360]

Let us ignore NSX for min.

Acura is going in the wrong direction since Legend? May be its me. You cannot buy a single Acura model now. Ugly as F***.

If they have to come back then some radical move is the only way else they just die with no grace.

Well, I take that back. They die in motor heads/hearts.

 

[NSX167]

i have to agree with Honcho on this - there will be another significant Acura sports car. I don't think they're done. They have lacked vision and direction in the sports car world but they are just kind of hedging their bets.

Don't you guys think that Honda has seen what Porsche is doing - surely you don't think they're blind to what other sports car manufacturers are doing - do you - the CR-Z is an experimet. But it shows what is happening in the market - that's performance, fun and gas savings! Yep that's right - they are finding their way and working thru the scenario of just what kind of hybrid sports car will American buyers purchase! They are trying to check out where to take and how far to take the Acura/Honda sports car.

Because of the oil crisis we're going thru there is a lot of pressure. Honda has to get it right! Honda has always been a good copy cat manufacturer.

I wouldn't give up just yet if you ask me.

+1

"Inception" dreamer dreamers. I am still stuck in between 5th and 6th layers.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tB2-L7hyGKo&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PKMkVucBp3Y&feature=related

http://www.nsxprime.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=35

 

[Caustic]

I have watched these "new NSX" threads pretty diligently, and its refreshing to see some rational discussion.

Honda made the NSX during their peak. Honda was pretty much dominating everything, from business to racing. They could afford to create the NSX at that time. Kinda where Toyota is now, and *poof* the LFA appears.

Honda now has problems. Everyone here admits Acura is not what it once was, and the Honda lineup isn't terribly exciting either. The bottom line is that econoboxes are where the money is at. #s being sold is important. From top to bottom, they need to set their house straight before they can start experimenting again.

Will Honda make another sports car? Yes. Will there be another NSX? Maybe. But right now I would rather see Honda put out some compelling Acura hardware, and have their business in a comfortable position so that they can make another NSX without compromise due to their market position.

On another note, IMHO, I don't think Honda is looking at what Porsche is doing, they haven't looked Ferarri's way since 1990. They are looking squarely at Toyota, probably pretty enviously. But IF they are looking at a sportscar, then the car they are looking at is the GTR. Its the car the NSX was, fantastic engineering, incredible numbers, quality hardware, at a price lower than the competition.

 

[mlambert890]

On another note, IMHO, I don't think Honda is looking at what Porsche is doing, they haven't looked Ferarri's way since 1990. They are looking squarely at Toyota, probably pretty enviously. But IF they are looking at a sportscar, then the car they are looking at is the GTR. Its the car the NSX was, fantastic engineering, incredible numbers, quality hardware, at a price lower than the competition.

+1000

I dont think Honda considers Porsche to be in the same segment (as well they shouldn't!)

I suppose it could be asked if they are looking at what *Audi* is doing (and they should), but Japan has always been conservative and I'm sure they think Audi is crazy. Honda is also *hugely* "green" and would, I am sure, rather that their next "halo" project be a 900mi range electric put put car (maybe even an autonomous vehicle) than a sports car. Sports cars are politically incorrect - like a fur coat nearly - and Honda, without Soichiro, just isnt that company.

Also, I would *never* expect to see anything *near* the CGT, Enzo level from Honda. It would have been nice to see, you know, Corvette or Mustang level though! LOL. The NSX was basically Ferrari 348 level (beyond actually) Pretty nice showing. F40/Testarossa threat? No. But who cares. Today they'd have to target the 458. Not going to happen. Ferrari ALWAYS has the last laugh and deservedly so. All others are pretenders. Ford pretended in the 60s, then they dragged the same concept back and pretended again for a bit, but in the end, with the exception of Porsche, Lambo and maybe Lotus and Corvette depending on how you look at it, the others always fade away.

As for our beloved NSXs... I think it is a mistake to even attempt to think about them in the modern context. It is mystifying to me that people do this. It is a *classic car*. A piece of history. People who buy it because they can *finally* afford it and want what I call "baller on a budget" create their own psychological problem, IMO.

In the circle of car folks I hang with, the NSX is well respected as a slice of history. It is viewed positively alongside the 348, 355, 308, 328, older 911s, Lotus Esprit, etc. Trying to "hang" with a 2010 Ferrari is ludicrous.

I mod the car to tweak it for my *own* tastes (bit more kick, bit of the R look, bit showier, etc) not to try to "close some gap" with modern supercars. That would be a fools errand.

 

[captainjman]

i have to agree with Honcho on this - there will be another significant Acura sports car. I don't think they're done. They have lacked vision and direction in the sports car world but they are just kind of hedging their bets.

Don't you guys think that Honda has seen what Porsche is doing - surely you don't think they're blind to what other sports car manufacturers are doing - do you - the CR-Z is an experimet. But it shows what is happening in the market - that's performance, fun and gas savings! Yep that's right - they are finding their way and working thru the scenario of just what kind of hybrid sports car will American buyers purchase! They are trying to check out where to take and how far to take the Acura/Honda sports car.

Because of the oil crisis we're going thru there is a lot of pressure. Honda has to get it right! Honda has always been a good copy cat manufacturer.

I wouldn't give up just yet if you ask me.

THANK YOU!!!!!!

This thread feels like I am on the HMS Titanic.... way to dark and depressing for me. Im sure they will do something. All my bitching and moaning is in an effort to get someones attention at Honda. They do read these forums obviously.... its free market research for them. DUH! Before forums they would pay MILLIONS for this kind of feedback!

Tim, thanks for being positive! The thread needed it!

J

P.S. that being said, I never drove a honda civic si before. I was looking at an odyssey. So I asked to take the SI for a drive to see how quick it was. It didn't ever accelerate... it made a bunch of muffled noise, but it had no real acceleration at all!

 

[Juice]

This is why I love Prime; compared to most forums, this forum is full of brilliant intellects. Comparatively.

Since this seems a healthy thread, I ask for some well thought feedback. Do you think Honda still wants to race? If so, what bracket of racing do they aspire to be competitive in? (F1, Super GT, ALMS, Indy, etc.) Does Acura have a place at Honda Racing headquarters?

Your thoughts? I promise I'm going somewhere with this.

 

[Honcho]

+1000

I dont think Honda considers Porsche to be in the same segment (as well they shouldn't!)

I suppose it could be asked if they are looking at what *Audi* is doing (and they should), but Japan has always been conservative and I'm sure they think Audi is crazy. Honda is also *hugely* "green" and would, I am sure, rather that their next "halo" project be a 900mi range electric put put car (maybe even an autonomous vehicle) than a sports car. Sports cars are politically incorrect - like a fur coat nearly - and Honda, without Soichiro, just isnt that company.

Also, I would *never* expect to see anything *near* the CGT, Enzo level from Honda. It would have been nice to see, you know, Corvette or Mustang level though! LOL. The NSX was basically Ferrari 348 level (beyond actually) Pretty nice showing. F40/Testarossa threat? No. But who cares. Today they'd have to target the 458. Not going to happen. Ferrari ALWAYS has the last laugh and deservedly so. All others are pretenders. Ford pretended in the 60s, then they dragged the same concept back and pretended again for a bit, but in the end, with the exception of Porsche, Lambo and maybe Lotus and Corvette depending on how you look at it, the others always fade away.

As for our beloved NSXs... I think it is a mistake to even attempt to think about them in the modern context. It is mystifying to me that people do this. It is a *classic car*. A piece of history. People who buy it because they can *finally* afford it and want what I call "baller on a budget" create their own psychological problem, IMO.

In the circle of car folks I hang with, the NSX is well respected as a slice of history. It is viewed positively alongside the 348, 355, 308, 328, older 911s, Lotus Esprit, etc. Trying to "hang" with a 2010 Ferrari is ludicrous.

I mod the car to tweak it for my *own* tastes (bit more kick, bit of the R look, bit showier, etc) not to try to "close some gap" with modern supercars. That would be a fools errand.

Fantastic post. I totally agree.

The CR-Z is laughable as a sports car in reality its just a souped up (Aussie slang for modified) shopping trolley. Honda has taken the direction that all they will make in the future are small green buzz box's. Just look at Acura you guys have in the USA supposed to be a luxury brand, man we have simular stuff here and that’s not the luxury brand i would spend money on.

I understand your point and do agree that the CR-Z is not a true sports car. But, it is marketed the same vein as the Miata and MG were. Neither of these cars are particularly fast, but they are intended to provide a fun and "sporty" driving experience. Honda designed the CR-Z in the same way. All Honda wants to know with the CR-Z is whether American customers will accept the idea of a hybrid sports concept, i.e., a manual clutch transmission combined with hybrid power. Because they are a conservative Japanese company, they chose this strategy so as to avoid the financial and public embarassment of a hybrid NSX-like car failing in the marketplace. If the CR-Z fails, nobody will really care. If the NSX fails, it looks bad. Thankfully, the CR-Z seems to be doing ok. I saw two in the parking lot of the Outback last week.

This is why I love Prime; compared to most forums, this forum is full of brilliant intellects. Comparatively.

Since this seems a healthy thread, I ask for some well thought feedback. Do you think Honda still wants to race? If so, what bracket of racing do they aspire to be competitive in? (F1, Super GT, ALMS, Indy, etc.) Does Acura have a place at Honda Racing headquarters?

Your thoughts? I promise I'm going somewhere with this.

Yes, I think Honda still wants to race. I just think they are having corporate schizophrenia about HOW they want to race. I think they will always be involved in motorcycle racing, as it is their heritage and they are exceedingly good at it. I also think they will continue to be involved in IRL racing, as the exposure is great for American customers. Those Honda IRL engines are pretty much bulletproof and that is good Honda PR for the US market. Sadly, I do not think Honda will ever be involved in F1 again, though perhaps as an engine supplier someday. They really got burned and lost a lot of money, and the Brawn F1 debacle only cemented the embarassment.

As for Super GT, it is a more interesting issue. This is Japan's NASCAR and Honda would never leave the series out of pride. The problem is that Honda has been racing under "special exceptions" for years. The first exception they received was to continue racing the NSX despite the fact it ceased production in 2006. They eeked out under that regime until 2009, when the HSV-10 was supposed to come in and solve the problem since at the time Honda expected the car to be a production model for Acura. Of course, we all know that didn't happen and Honda had to go back asking for a SECOND exception to race the HSV, since they have no other RWD platforms in their lineup. Word is that the sanctioning body is losing patience, mostly at the urging of Nissan and Toyota, who no doubt are raising holy hell about why Honda has been allowed to race cars it doesn't make for so long. The end result could be interesting. Assuming Super GT finally tells Honda to put up or shut up, it could either be good or bad for Honda sports cars. It could be good in the sense that Honda may finally release a proper sports car, if nothing more than to comply with Super GT rules. It could be bad if Honda instead decides to fib that its SH-AWD system counts as RWD and takes the embarassing step of running a family sedan (Accord/TL, Legend/RL) in Japan's premier racing series.

As for Acura, God where to start? It seems the direction of this brand chages with the wind and whomever is calling the shots at that point. What you end up with is a paralyzed brand and confused styling. That is fodder for another thread, but suffice it to say that Acura never has been a big part of Honda Racing. That was all supposed to change in 2009 with the launch of Acura as a global brand. This was the culmination of years of planning by Honda to develop Acura into a "Tier 1" brand. What did this mean? Well, this was around the time you had US-based Acura executives throwing out statements suggesting they wanted to compete directly with Aston Martin and Maserati. ! There were also plans for a completely new AWD and RWD platform, powered by a new line of large displacement V6 and V8 engines. Honda wanted to make a big splash with Acura and you can see the pieces of that failed plan everywhere even today. If the plan had come to fruition, you would have seen:

Step 1: Acura starts racing in ALMS to develop racing pedigree in preparation for global brand launch. This actually happened;
Step 2: Acura buys ad slots during racing competition broadcasts to reach sports car market base. This happened too. In fact, the 2009 and 2010 SPEED F1 pre-race show was called the Acura Pre-Race Show;
Step 3: Acura launches worldwide as a global luxury brand in 2009. Never happened;
Step 4: Acura releases the HSV-10 worldwide in 2009. It is a V10 powered, Ferrari-smashing beast of a hypercar that is the accompanying statement to the global brand launch. Never happened, but a related vehicle is being raced in Super GT;
Step 5: Using HSV-derived technology and the new platform, we see a new RL slaoon flagship and a V8 powered MDX luxury SUV in 2010-2011. Nope. The RL is still limping along, just as understyled and irrelevant as always. And, the MDX still is using the J37 V6.
Step 6: By 2013, all Acura models are using the new platform, have either V6 or V8 power and are selling at the price point of BMW and Audi. Never happened. Instead, we have the same lineup we had in 2004, except we got the "power plenum." Yay. And no NSX.

The failure of Honda's multi-year branding strategy for Acura can be felt in many ways, from the lack of a true sports car to the continued reliance on tired platforms and technology. But, it also has dire consequences for racing. The whole point of the Acura racing program was to give the marque legitimacy for when it was re-cast as a "Tier 1" brand and to bolster the street cred of the HSV-10. Since these never happened, there does not appear to be any point for Acura to continue racing. I suspect that Honda will start to strangle money from the program and gradually phase it out, if they haven't started already.

 

[Juice]

Brilliant Honcho. You are heading (and thus leading others) in the direction I want members here to go. Leave the distant future out of it, let's focus on the immediate points you have addressed. IRL involvement will continue, F1 is likely dead until there is substantial evidence that the USA shows overwhelming interest, and SuperGT is where the heart is. (Since Moto is for cycles, lets leave that alone for now.)

Now, you have addressed that Super GT may dictate the future of racing at a local level. You also mentioned who is currently controlling S-GT. We already know what Nissan is preparing for all future races. What is Toyota doing, and for that matter any other competing manufacturers, to prepare for the future? What would you say is the current climate of S-GT?

 

[tbromley]

Honcho's made some good points and so has Mlambert. However, I believe that what Porsche is showing the world right now with the 918 and the hybrid RSR is that there is a future in hybrid technology on the race track. Everyone else is playing catch up big time and I believe that includes Honda.

Honda has directional issues. They were really doing well in ALMS and just about to really get that going but what happened - Porsche stopped LMP2 competition.

I believe that Honda and others are truly watching what Porsche is doing - whether Ferrari is going to do anything with hybrid tech - well who knows - but I believe Ferrari will be the last to move that way along with Lambo. I think that Lotus will come along and Audi - hell remember Audi was working on Diesel before everything kind of went hay wire in racing. Ferrari is the king of FI - but who is seriously battling them - Jag, Aston??? There are others... but F1 is another animal. Really isn't based off production vehicles is it.

So you have Super GT etc. I truly believe that the CR -Z is a small experimental picture of Honda looking at Porsche - I know, I know - no where near the performance. But the HSV10 is a bomb and if they just took that back to the drawing board and put maybe a V8 or even a higher HP V6 and coupled that with some Hybrid tech - well it could be pretty cool. It wouldn't take that much for Honda to do something like that.

When it comes to racing - Honda will not be bombed out of competition - sure they're struggling right now it seems, but underneath they are watching and working on things - you'll see. Call me crazy if you want but I will not give up hope on Honda.

Now I want to say something about CaptJman's comment on the Honda Civic SI and it is not super speed - but it is a damn fun car. You take that car and take the super charger off the Acura small SUV and strap that on and you will see something of a bomb. That car handles great. It's a cool car - I owned one for a year - now I had the 4 door - and it still performed. I wasn't bowled over by the transmission which struggled a bit in cold weather, but over all that is a pretty cool car. If I was on a budget - that would be a great solution to fun. I would rather have the SI two door than an S2000 - because it's a coupe. You can feel the VTECH kick in more than you do in the NSX I can promise you that. It's a cool little car and Jason I just don't think you gave it a proper run. When I took my salesman on "Mr. Toads Wild Ride" even he was surprised - I took him off on some of my back roads. Gave him a little excitement.

Acura is struggling I admit that the RL is a heavy turkey and needs a whole lot more development in the handling department to be a true 5 series competitior or Audi A5. But it's still a very nice car and here again it is struggling with identity issues.

Honda's motorcycle branch is on the ball - they need someone from over in that camp to come over and straighten out the other side!!! If they did and really put their mind to it they could blow the competition away. The only thing Toyota has going on is Truck Comp engines, engines and trannies they sell to Lotus and the LF-A which is just somewhere out there in the outer limits - I mean c'mon - you mean they can build that damn thing but can't build a Supra replacement? Geez.....

It may take some time but they are getting tons of feedback here and at the car shows. They may not look like they're paying attention but I believe slowly they are getting it and no one here knows just what is in the "minds of their engineers and admin" for the future. So just hang on.

Let me say one more thing - There is not one manufacturer out there that ever built a race car or sports car that doesn't look at Porsche - it is the leader - other than Ferrari. It is the developer and has more cool stuff under their belt than anyone. It is now building Cayennes, Caymans, Boxsters, 911s (more models than you can shake a stick at), Panomeras (now with twin turbo power - a mega bomb)- it is moving and stretching it's limits into worlds of performance and setting standards for all of it. Everyone is quietly watching.

The Japanese need to wake up and I believe they will. They wouldn't be building and trying to get the HSV into racing on exemptions if they didn't want to race. They do not want to "fall on the sword" on this one. Just wait and see. Even though we've been waiting plenty long just give em a little longer. If they didn't get exemptions then they'd get OFF THEIR DEAD ASS AND REALLY DO SOMETHING - ARE YOU READING THIS HONDA!!!!!

My 2 1/2 cents worth.....

 

[coil222]

Ironically I just got home from a CRZ testdrive, I was thinking about replacing my daily driver (2007 non turbo impreza). It certainly is no sportscar, but it wasnt bad at all to drive.. I rather enjoyed it. I think the fear of a better model for 2012 is all thats keeping me from taking the plunge.

 

[tbromley]

Ironically I just got home from a CRZ testdrive, I was thinking about replacing my daily driver (2007 non turbo impreza). It certainly is no sportscar, but it wasnt bad at all to drive.. I rather enjoyed it. I think the fear of a better model for 2012 is all thats keeping me from taking the plunge.

I'm interested in your impression of a manual transmission engaging a hybrid engine? What was that like. I have a Prius and although it offers utility that the CRZ can't match it might be a pretty cool car. What's new for next year - do you know or have you heard?

 

[coil222]

Well they don't all come w/ a manual but the one i drove did. Its got pretty decent torque for a 1.5 liter, really makes up for the horsepower being as low as it is. In sport mode it felt like any other small motor little hatch I've driven, I couldn't really feel a difference between it and normal combustion motor. It is very very quiet at idle.

I've read that the next gen IMA is coming out w/ the '12 civics, I don't think CRZ is supposed to get a refresh for 2012 but better to wait now than to buy one and have something better come out 2-3 months down the line.

Also the USDM version has no backseat but the UK model does. I'd need a 2+2 for my girlfriend's 2 yr old, so I'm sort of hoping that may be an option for the 2012 models.