Etiquette, what's what?

Joined
26 August 2001
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130
Location
Virginia, USA
I have a very important dinner in 2 weeks with a supplier of mine. This will be my first business type meeting (up till now I've negotiated deals through phone). My problem is that I'm not too polished on business etiquette. I dropped out of highschool to start my business so missed out on college and whatever may have come with it. I've tried a few search engines and come up short so thought I could recieve some help here. Here is some information.

I initiated contact (called his company, they gave me his number)
During our conversation he said that he'd be in my area in about 2 weeks and thought we should meet, I agreed
I was always told that whenever someone comes to your neck of the woods you pay, and vice versa, and yet I'm his client, what do I do? Who orders first? What type of restaurant? etc.

If anyone knows a great site or book on etiquette, especially if it's related to business, could you please point me that way? I'd appreciate it very much, thanks.
 
First of all, relax. Enjoy the dinner. Don't get too hung up on "the rules"; he's just another guy.

I was always told that whenever someone comes to your neck of the woods you pay, and vice versa, and yet I'm his client, what do I do?

You're his client; let him pay. When the bill comes, he will pick it up as soon as it arrives. If you like, you can start to reach for your wallet and ask for it but he will probably stop you even before you get it out. He will say "I've got it". It's okay to say thank you.

One exception is that certain employers (particularly the government) prohibit ANYONE to pay the bill for you.

Who orders first?

Either one of you; it doesn't matter. If he tells you to go ahead, then do it. If you need another few minutes to look at the menu (like if you've been too involved conversing) it's okay to ask the waiter/waitress to come back in a few minutes.

What type of restaurant?

Generally, you want a nice, sit-down restaurant that is fairly quiet so you can talk business. This generally rules out the chain type restaurants. If you have an admin assistant (secretary) ask her for suggestions for a business dinner.

As for books, there was a review in this week's New York Times of three new etiquette books, and instead of recommending any of them, it repeatedly referred to Judith Martin as "the best living writer on etiquette" and referred to her book, "Miss Manners' Guide to Excruciatingly Correct Behavior" as a much better reference on the subject. I have never read this book so I am not commenting on it from first-hand experience.

[This message has been edited by nsxtasy (edited 28 March 2002).]

[This message has been edited by nsxtasy (edited 29 March 2002).]
 
One exception is that certain employers (particularly the government) prohibit ANYONE to pay the bill for you.
THAT IS VERY INTERESTING.But makes sense.

Good info ,good thread,good response.
DITTO THAT.

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I agree, good thread, good responses. I just wanted explicitly agree with Ken on this, if you're going to a business dinner with someone, realize that they are in the same boat as you, they probably don't know exactly what to do, either. Just be yourself.

Remain as relaxed as possible, keep the casual conversation limited - from my own personal experiences, it helps prevent the chance of saying something "stupid"
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, and move along with the business discussion at a relaxed pace.

Also, I would recommend avoiding, if at all possible, really sloppy/saucy foods like lasagna, finger foods, etc. But that's just a preference...

Good luck!
-- Brian
 
I recommend a full rack of ribs with a side of corn on the cob eaten in a strip club and washed down with a bunch of tequila. Give him all your views on religion politics loudly while you are eating. Then, when the check comes, neither of your pays - just run for it!

Seriously - your best bet is to:

* First, I assume you know basic US table manners. If not, which may very well be the case if you are relatively new to the country, hit the Internet or local library or some people around your office for a basic rundown on things like proper use of napkins, bread plates, salad forks, knives, etc. and not slupring your soup or cutting your entire meal up and then eating it, etc. You do not need anything beyond basic table manners here - it is not a State dinner at the White House.

* nsxtasy already coverd who orders first - it doesn't matter.

* If you are familiar with a good number of restaurants in the area, ask the guy if he has a preference for types of food and pick a corresponding restaurant THAT YOU HAVE BEEN TO BEFORE. If you have limited restaurant experience in the area, get some recommendations from people who take their local clients out to dinner often. Pick a casual-but-good restaurant so neither of you have to worry about what to do with 12 different forks. Even if you know, the other guy may not and it would be embarassing for him. I would probably avoid a place where a coat and tie is required, but also anyplace where it is loud or there are children. I believe you are in the NOVA/DC area - if so, you can go to www.zagat.com and search for places appropriate for "Business Dining" in the area by using the Advanced Search function. Avoid anything that says coat and tie required or you can quickly get into the 12 forks thing.

* Order what you would order if you were paying for it yourself, with the exeption of messy or complicated foods - no ribs, quail, lobster, crab legs or anything like that. If you like steak, get steak - it's a standard, easy thing to order and eat. You said you are trying to negotiate some business with this guy, and you don't want to have to devote half your attention to eating your dinner if you can help it.

* Alcohol is a big "it depends". If you OFTEN drink wine with dinner anyway, and it's not going to stress you out to try and pick a wine that matches well with your meal, I think a glass of wine is fine. If you would normally not have wine with dinner, skip it. Liquor is not a good idea. Avoid more than one drink, esp. if you are negotiating. This means do not order a bottle even if he wants to; order a glass of whatever you want or just skip it.

* Talk about neutral things of mutual interest (pro sports, golf, boating, cars, travel, whatever.) Since you are probably going to be talking business most of the time this isn't too much of an issue, but I strongly recommend some small talk about mutual interests to break the ice before jumping into business talk so you can both be more comfortable and have a good dialog flowing.

* Assuming your employer doesn't have a policy against it, let him pick up the check and thank him when he does. If it is against your company's policy, just politely explain that and you can have the waiter split the check. The saying about picking up the check when people are in your neck of the woods applies to friends or business peers. In the private sector, for a vendor-client meal, the vendor picks up the check. However, if there is any awkwardness (i.e. he doesn't take care of it as soon as it comes to the table), go ahead and pay for it. If he actually lets you pay, he doesn't know what he is doing, and that knowledge will certainly be worth more than the cost of dinner elsewhere in your negotiations! This is very, very unlikely but it did happen to a friend of mine once.

* If he is meeting you at your office, it would be polite to offer to drive to dinner since you know the area and he is from out of town. Don't take him out in your NSX and scare him to death though! If you are meeting at the restaurant, pick a place close to where he is staying. I would also offer to pick him up, but if not, make sure he has very good directions and both the restaurant's number and your mobile phone number in case he gets lost.

You are the client - the pressure is on the other guy, not you. He wants your business. Remember that the other guy is just a person having dinner with a stranger as well, and he's from out of town on top of that while you are on your home turf.

[This message has been edited by Lud (edited 29 March 2002).]
 
Good points, everyone.

Originally posted by Lud:
* Alcohol is a big "it depends". If you OFTEN drink wine with dinner anyway, and it's not going to stress you out to try and pick a wine that matches well with your meal, I think a glass of wine is fine. If you would normally not have wine with dinner, skip it. Liquor is not a good idea. Avoid more than one drink, esp. if you are negotiating. This means do not order a bottle even if he wants to; order a glass of whatever you want or just skip it.

I think this is good advice. I would add that you should not feel pressured to do what he does; if he orders an alcoholic drink, you can too (per above) but you can just as easily order a soft drink or iced tea if you prefer. And vice versa; even if he orders a non-alcoholic drink, you can order alcohol (but again, I do agree with the advice above about not over-indulging).

* Talk about neutral things of mutual interest (pro sports, golf, boating, cars, travel, whatever.) Since you are probably going to be talking business most of the time this isn't too much of an issue, but I strongly recommend some small talk about mutual interests to break the ice before jumping into business talk so you can both be more comfortable and have a good dialog flowing.

Also good advice. It's also generally a good idea to talk about the social stuff when you first sit down and are looking at the menu, until the waiter/waitress takes your order. Keep in mind that looking at the menu is a major distraction, and taking the order is a major interruption. If you haven't started the business stuff until your order is taken, then you can do so without fear of major interruption, since the rest of the dinner should flow smoothly.

If you start talking about business stuff before your order is taken, and the waiter comes over when you're right in the middle of something, it's acceptable to ask him to come back in a few minutes - but not to put it off indefinitely. That's why it's easier to hold off on the business stuff until after the order is taken.
 
Go in to meet him with a bunch of swizzle sticks in your top shirt pocket. Tell him you consider partying kind of a career of it's own and, in your company, Monday and Friday absentee-ism is a prerequisite. You don't need a '1 Martini lunch' but you do need a '2 bone coffee break'. And if this doesn't get him into your pocket....... after you tell him to pony up the dough for the bill, point to the picture in his wallet and yell, WHO'S THE BITCH!!!


That should not only get you his business but many referrals from him as well.

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Lud/Nsxotic thanks for the comic relief
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I do know basic table manners and actually saw a video on the whole 12 fork stuff ~5 years ago, can't for the life of me remember what fork is for what food but my soup devouring skills would impress even Chesterfield
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The " [do not] cutting up your entire meal up and then eating it..." is new but great advice.
I am my own employer so not much problem with gov't intervention but that was an interesting fact.
Turns out he lived in my area way back and even went to my highschool (class of '80, me '01) that also gets rid of the achohol and small talk issue.

Thanks guys for your advice, I'll do my best to remember and impress
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Originally posted by skim83:
I do know basic table manners and actually saw a video on the whole 12 fork stuff ~5 years ago, can't for the life of me remember what fork is for what food but my soup devouring skills would impress even Chesterfield

I'm confused - which fork are you supposed to eat your soup with?
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'91 Black/Black
 
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