Engine start problem....

R

R3DLINE

Contributing Member
Joined
28 September 2004
Messages
110
Location
Oklahoma city, ok
hello prime members,

recently posted a thread for the same issue but still running into problems.
Thought I had it fixed but one day, taking my car to work, it was parked for 8hrs in the cold and did not start. I had to jump start the car.
So far, I have checked:
1. Main relay Fuse (good, not corroded)
2. Igniter
3. Alternator
4. Battery (optima yellow)

1. when disconnecting the main relay, starting the car, it wouldnt even try to start. the voltmeter doesnt go down at all. just stays in one spot. So I know the main relay is good.
2. when the igniter is disconnected, it cranks but will not start. so that isnt the problem.
3. disconnected the alternator harness and when the car is started, it seems that the voltmeter slowly decreases and when I plugged it back in, the voltmeter jumps back up to 14v.
4. took the battery to autozone and it was tested good, there is absolutly no corrision. so that eliminates that.

And so far, everything was tested and is good. what else can it be?
starting the car, when the voltmeter is at 13/14 v, it will start. but when it is at 12v, trying to start the car the voltmeter just goes down to 10v without any crank or anything but dimmed lights. what seems to be the problem?


Thanks,
John
 
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Key ignition. I opened my key ignition, cleaned the contacts and greased it well with contact grease. put it together and never had a problem. When the car is started, giggle the key left to right just a little and see if the car turns off.

The main relay when connected will turn over the car, but will not start because the contacts are broken. You can barely see it. Take it apart and solder the two big contacts. You can't miss them.
 
the main relay right behind you in the dead center behind the cover. It's notorious for causing your car not to start in odd weather. happen to me when it was 100 F and i aired the car for a few min and started. Also, when you turn the key to the second positions when your dash lights up. If there is no contact you will notice that your CEL will stay on until it has contact. It's been a while, so someone correct me if i'm wrong with the CEL and main relay.
 
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btw, the main fuel relay (behind you) will take you literally 5 min to pull out. have a 10mm socket ready. You have to open it and look really close and slow. maybe put a little bit of pressure on the board so you can see the broken solder.
 
It sounds like your battery or battery cables are corroded. Clean off both sides of the cable, make sure the cable wire to the connectors is not corroded either.

Symptoms:

Ignition switch: may not crank, when engine dies the instrument lights dim too

Main relay: always cranks (but might take a few more now and then to start), dies randomly -- tapping the MR may bring the engine to life.

Note: the MR is a complex relay, it does a lot of things: runs the fuel pump, powers the ECU and few other things all on different internal circuits. Your test of the MR was not valid.
 
I had the same problem a couple days ago when it was really cold. But before that I had no issues what so ever. Now it starts with no problem. Should should I just be safe and have the main relay replaced anyways? Or could it be something else?
 
Hey guys, appreciate all the help. Finally had a chance to take the main relay apart, and it seems to be fine. theres absolutly no problem with it. Cant seem to see what the problem is.
 
No, it doesnt even crank. And sometimes with the battery charger connected, with the voltmeter being at 14v it would even start. checked everything too. Had this problem when the car was purchased four years ago til now.
 
Take a look at my first post on this thread, you'll save yourself a lot of time.

Note: If it always cranks, it is not the MR.

It is probably your battery cables and/or battery connection. You are going to have to physically clean and inspect both sides of the cables (you'll have to crawl under the car).

The cables can also go bad because of internal corrosion, which is hard to detect with a VOM because of the heavy load required to manifest the problem.
 
would you still think it can be the battery cables or connections even when you turn the key, the voltmeter still reads at least 12v? but doesnt crank in order for it to start? when trying to start, the voltmeter drops from 12v to 4v and when released, it goes back up to 12v without any cranking.
 
VoSter said:
Hey guys, appreciate all the help. Finally had a chance to take the main relay apart, and it seems to be fine. theres absolutly no problem with it. Cant seem to see what the problem is.
Click to expand...

sometimes the coils in the main relay goes bad. mine just went bad that way. i re-soldered all the joints, didnt work, ecu was still going crazy. i took it apart again and smelt the relay and sure thing it smelt like burnt components.

if your main relay is broken, your car should not be pulling 8 volts... given that your motor is not even cranking.

from my understanding, your car is no longer cranking over?

if thats the case, i would check your starter. sometimes you can start by hitting it with a soft mallet. your starter could have developed a bad short on the armature of the starter and its only one bad spot that could results in non start when once in a blue moon the starter stop at that short. 8 volts is a nice amount of juice to be going somewhere but not doing any work.

more info about your problem would be good.

for combustion there are only 3 things, spark , fuel, compression. pretty easy concepts. no crank, no compression, no start.

no fuel. no start. no spark. no start.

if your car is not cranking over. start there.
 
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At times the car does crank over, as in you hear the crank and it starts. but most times it does not crank over and would not start. Sometimes it wouldnt even crank over when the voltmeter reads 14v. Sometimes even running a battery cable from one car to mine, it would not crank over, at this point the voltmeter reads 14v, You do not even hear a crank whatsoever. At that point, I would have to push start it in order for it to start.
Most of the time, when I use the battery charger or battery jumpstart, it will crank and start. but with out it, most times, it would not crank and would not start.
 
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if it cranks and and it always starts every time the car does crank over then change your starter.

if you can push start the car then fuel and spark is there, what you where lacking is compression - supplied by the starter.

if you are mechanical you can pull out the starter and test internals with a volt meter.

here is the ebay number for one for 99$ couple of remanfg ones for 130$.
350036777612

good luck :smile:
 
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Thanks Ron...
Finally found where the starter was located, I ran a test removing the solenoid terminal and running a wire from it to the positive battery terminal, and it cranks everytime. I went under the dash and looked at the aftermarket alarm system which has automatic start. Where the blk/white wire is split to run into the alarm relay, there is a diode that starts the car while in neutral, it get excessively hot when it doesnt crank. Now I dont know if the diode is too small or which one I now need to upgraded too? When the diode is tooken off, the car starts everytime but only with the clutch suppressed.
 
VoSter said:
Thanks Ron...
Finally found where the starter was located, I ran a test removing the solenoid terminal and running a wire from it to the positive battery terminal, and it cranks everytime. I went under the dash and looked at the aftermarket alarm system which has automatic start. Where the blk/white wire is split to run into the alarm relay, there is a diode that starts the car while in neutral, it get excessively hot when it doesnt crank. Now I dont know if the diode is too small or which one I now need to upgraded too? When the diode is tooken off, the car starts everytime but only with the clutch suppressed.
Click to expand...

i would take it off. but thats just me :) cheap aftermarket alarm systems often cause more harm then good since cheap internal parts run major systems on the car.

for start circuit, it should be a simple grounding signal. push down the clutch switch at the top of your clutch signal. that grounds the current and the relay is activated to send the starter signal to the starter. The relay is only temporary off and on esp when its a starter signal. if its getting super hot, then there is issues with it. but drawing 8 volts is a lot for a relay. that sucker should be up in flames.

can you replace the relay? if your handy you can most likely wire another relay in that is aftermarket.

there will be 2 circuits in a relay box.

Schematic.gif


in this diagram 3 and 5 is the starter signal.

3 is incoming starter signal and the 5 is the signal going to the starter.

the relay is the gate keeper.

as you can see there is a brake in the circuit between 3 and 5.

circuit 1 and 2 is a magnet. When energized it attracts the little flap on circuit 3 and 5 towards circuit 1 and 2 and thus closing ( bridging) circuit 3 and 5.

so the signal goes to the starter and cranks the car.

the magnet gets the 12 volt from your ignition switch.

to hook up an aftermarket relay. all you need to find is.

12 volt from your ignition switch. in this case the 12 volt starter signal from your alarm. to the relay you can use any 12 volt from the car and will start the car and it can be a consistent signal.

you can test the relay that went bad and go from there. if the relay is internal, you can solider direct to the circuit board and extend a wire from there to out side the box.

good luck!:smile:
 
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Nothing like trying to hit a moving target, eh?

When exactly were you going to fess up that you had (were installing?) a remote start system?

Not disclosing non-oem items just wastes everybody's time.

drew
 
Sorry drew,
just that the viper 791xv, I installed 4 years ago. And it had no problems till lately this year. All was installed correctly and with the relay that he's talking about. Even though the diode was tooken off and the clutch suppressed it still doesnt start. So it must be the viper relay. Gonna have to check it soon as I get a chance.
 
thanks guys,

now that I have removed the alarm system. And came across a huge problem. Did my research and cant figure out the problem. Some where between the starter wire from the ignition to the starter, there is a delay. and now no power is going to the starter. checked all the fuses and all and cant seem to find the problem. can it be that I crossed some of the wires taking off the alarm system and now something is fryed? If I power on the ignition and wire the starter to a positive, it will start. but then if i put the starter wire (blk/wht) from the ignition to a positive, theres no reaction.
 

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