Electronic voting security?

[Lud]

It really hit me to today how uncomfortable I am with the computer voting systems. It appears to me, as someone who works in IT, that there are many potentials for trouble and security vulnerabilities that are being glossed over, probably because the average non-technical person does not understand the details well enough to understand how they could be exploited. Also, far too much of it is still proprietary so nobody else, including the government(!) even understands how certain parts of it work, thus results can't even begin to be verified by a third party. I still have trouble understanding how we ended up adopting these systems so quickly.

 

[Briank]

Re: Electronic voting

One word "Chads"

 

[NsXMas]

Re: Electronic voting

It's funny that you mention this.

I was talking with friends about why there is no way to vote on-line. Since I travel a lot I have to vote via absentee ballot. But there should be a way to securely vote on-line, so that voting is more accessible to all citizens.

If we can do on-line banking and on-line shopping, file our taxes online, etc., we should be able to have secure on-line voting as well.

 

[Lud]

Re: Electronic voting

If we can do on-line banking and on-line shopping, file our taxes online, etc., we should be able to have secure on-line voting as well.

Please research how many billion dollars of online fraud are committed every year and see if you still feel we are ready to go there for voting. And that's just over stupid stuff like electronics or the contents of someone's checking account, mostly a few hundred or thousand dollars at a time.

How much do you think someone would pay you if you could compromise an online voting system and deliver an election to them?

I certainly hope any online voting system is a little better thought out than the current computer voting machines because it just makes widespread fraud that much easier if it's all online.

 

[Osiris_x11]

Re: Electronic voting

hmmm... There was just a case-study special on some research symposium channel on this very topic this afternoon. It particularly highlighted the three main companies that provide the equipment, consulting/support, and software 'code' for the computerized voting (including controversial "Diebold"). It was in layman's terms which can offer alot of insight to the general (yet aloof) public.

I think what will happen eventually is whether:

* Big business / corporate influence of these electronic voting providers takes hold in the government (ie. much like the defence contractors of yesteryear, the energy/oil corp's, the Pharma' multi-national corp's, etc... that are basically another branch of the US government now).

OR

* The government doesn't get seduced by the electronic voting providers and cares to maintain public belief in the integrity of the whole election process.

Basically, dollars vs. trust of public...

 

[NsXMas]

Re: Electronic voting

Please research how many billion dollars of online fraud are committed every year and see if you still feel we are ready to go there for voting. And that's just over stupid stuff like electronics or the contents of someone's checking account, mostly a few hundred or thousand dollars at a time. How much do you think someone would pay you if you could compromise an online voting system and deliver an election to them?

I certainly hope any online voting system is a little better thought out than the current computer voting machines because it just makes widespread fraud that much easier if it's all online.

There is fraud everywhere, even with paper voting.

However, I don't recall anything about fraudulent tax filings electronically. So there are ways to make voting secure, even online...

 

[Lud]

Re: Electronic voting

There is fraud everywhere, even with paper voting.

However, I don't recall anything about fraudulent tax filings electronically. So there are ways to make voting secure, even online...

It is very hard to commit mass vote fraud with paper in a country like the US.. You can get a few counties registering fake people or whatever but that is small time and much easier to detect compared to what can be done electronically.

When you talk about being able to file your taxes or pay your bills electronically, I don't think you understand the difference in the nature of the transactions.

First, all the serious electronic financial transactions (e.g. institutional) are far, far more secure than the computer voting systems.

Tax returns are inherently traceable. You file with your tax ID number or social security number. You file as an identifiable person. If you submit a fraudulent tax return, it is tied to you. If you want to get around this you have to create a false identity, fake bank accounts, etc. This presents a serious barrier and would be very difficult to pull off on a large scale. And even if you did, so what, maybe you steal a few million dollars. Who cares in the big scheme of things? It's not going to change the country.

Financial transactions are a zero-sum game involving an amount known to both parties, and they are also auditable. If you transfer $1,000 to someone, one of you is probably going to notice if part of the amount goes missing. If the person in charge of noticing this discrepancy is dishonest it can take a while for it to be discovered, but most of them are eventually found. And again, even then, so what, it's not a big deal on a national scale.

Just over 500 votes cast in Florida would have changed the last presidential election, but even if an extra 500,000 bogus votes are cast in a national election, how do you know? Votes are inherently anonymous and nobody knows beforehand how many will be cast. This is a CRITICAL difference with other electronic transactions we are used to. And since the current electronic voting systems are not properly auditable, there is no way to even attempt to prove the numbers are correct.

 

[Osiris_x11]

Re: Electronic voting

There is fraud everywhere, even with paper voting.

However, I don't recall anything about fraudulent tax filings electronically. So there are ways to make voting secure, even online...

hmmm... What's more disarming is that a handful of people, perhaps even one, can alter an election just because of there privileged position in a company that basically controls the election. There is no accountability or hard physical evidence w/ electronic voting. Joe Kennedy's cronies took care of a few ballot boxes in Chicago, supposedly... which if it is true swayed the election for his son.

BTW, did they ever find Al Gore's missing 16,000-20,000 votes from Volusia County, FL? Last I heard, the memory-interface card that stored the tallies in those computerized machines went missing.

Gosh, I can see these electronic voting companies becoming the most powerful instraments to influence government... FBI, CIA, pleaaaaase

[btw, the IRS comparison doesn't seem apt here... there is alot more accountability and 'gain' for both sides in dealing w/ the IRS returns. I'd personally invite the individual to my humble aboad for some supper who curtailed his IRS dues electronically... not due to some computer glitch/bug or IRS error]

 

[NsXMas]

Re: Electronic voting

Good points Lud.

However, as a former internal and external auditor with computer application experience, I know there are ways of securing the voting technology. I won't go into length here about the possibilities, but if the government spent enough time and money, electronic voting online can be reasonably secure and safe.

 

[Lud]

Re: Electronic voting

Good points Lud.

However, as a former internal and external auditor with computer application experience, I know there are ways of securing the voting technology. I won't go into length here about the possibilities, but if the government spent enough time and money, electronic voting online can be reasonably secure and safe.

I agree it is possible.. But there are also ways they could make the current computer voting systems far more secure than they are, and yet we haven't even done that.

Therefore I think we're a long way from a secure online voting system. But we also appear to be a ways off from a really secure electronic voting system despite the fact that we are using it, so who knows...

Anyway the current system concerns me, that is all.

 

[NsXMas]

Re: Electronic voting

hmmm... What's more disarming is that a handful of people, perhaps even one, can alter an election just because of there privileged position in a company that basically controls the election. There is no accountability or hard physical evidence w/ electronic voting. Joe Kennedy's cronies took care of a few ballot boxes in Chicago, supposedly... which if it is true swayed the election for his son.

BTW, did they ever find Al Gore's missing 16,000-20,000 votes from Volusia County, FL? Last I heard, the memory-interface card that stored the tallies in those computerized machines went missing.

Gosh, I can see these electronic voting companies becoming the most powerful instraments to influence government... FBI, CIA, pleaaaaase

[btw, the IRS comparison doesn't hold weight here... there is alot more accountability and 'gain' for both sides. I'd personally invite the individual to my humble aboad for some supper who curtailed his IRS dues electronically... not due to some computer glitch/bug or IRS error]

Is everyone so cynical these days? I agree with you that there are lots of problems with fraud online, but online does not EQUAL fraud necessarily. Technologies can be employed to provide secure online voting, if enough time and money were spent to research this.

There should be pilots to research the potential of voting online, and then allow those who are technically saavy to test it out. The results should be heavily audited and flaws corrected as necessary.

It may take 5-10 years before secure online voting can take place, but please don't tell me that paper voting is the only way to go.

 

[Osiris_x11]

public confidence & irrefutable integrity in the body's code!

Is everyone so cynical these days? ... but please don't tell me that paper voting is the only way to go.

hmmm... 'X, it is soooooo incredibly difficult to be trusting w/ anything out there nowadays. I'd never in my life have ever fathomed I'd have to take the daily news w/ a grain of salt (more like mounds of salt, *sigh*). I've been a news, current affairs, information addict since I was 3 or 4 (my earliest recollection, that is). How alarming is that, to have what you covet most and realize it all basically can be a spin if so desired by those who wish such.

As far as paper voting being the only solution... sheesh! Don't be rediculous... I was thinking DNA, hehe. . .

 

[hlweyl]

Re: public confidence & irrefutable integrity in the body's code!

We can put man into space but we can't figure out a better system to vote? tsk tsk I say.

 

[NsXMas]

Re: public confidence & irrefutable integrity in the body's code!

We can put man into space but we can't figure out a better system to vote? tsk tsk I say.

LOL how true!!

However, a man in space did cast a vote by email today though!!

http://www.cnn.com/2004/TECH/space/11/02/voting.from.space.ap/index.html

So we can send a man to space and make his vote count, after all!! It only cost a few billion dollars!!!