Detriot Autoshow: HSC no show?
- Thread starter nsxtacey
- Start date
Killed. Dead. No more. Finished. Kaput.
I never got to see it. 
Meeyatch1 said:I never got to see it.
Me neither
I would have liked to see it because I think it was gorgeous and it will never see production. 
NetViper said:Me neither
From the Lexus post:
I think the design is interesting. I am not sure it is good looking yet, but it is certainly different.
The engine on the other hand sounds incredible. Under 5L and over 500 HP. This would be the perfect engine for the next NSX
If Toyota can do it, surely Honda can.
Another:
I don't know what is going through their heads. I think Honda is letting us all down. I am pretty sure they are going to lose a lot of thier loyal buyers when they drop any kind of performance car from their line up.
Not picking on you NV. Just reading this post and the Lexus post.
I am sorry, I got to ask, who are their loyal buyers from the performance car end of things?
Surely it's not the purchasers of the many used NSX's that comprises much of NSXPrime's member's ownership.
If Honda is doing the HSC or Whatever to prove a point to the rest of the automakers, why should they rush? Why wouldn't they wait? I would take my time. How many new ones sell per year? Are they making a killing selling NSX parts? Why would a company such as Honda concentrate on a car with such a low sales volume? I wouldn't rush to put it out. The marketing is in the surprise. Get the most mileage that they can garner from the introduction. Shock the industry once again. They cannot do that when everyone is expecting them to do it.
They have to approach it the same way they did at its introduction. Their loyal buyers are not on this board.
They are selling so many different products. The NSX has become their benchmark yes, but it seems to be a itch of someone’s. It still sells modestly, with a 500HP motor, I have no doubt that others on this board would go out and buy it. Others that aren't owners may pop for one as well.
Honda shouldn't build the NSX for a group of people that are waiting to reclaim bragging rights on the car boards of the Internet. Yes I know that word of mouth will keep the marks in the minds of many. But as a money making venture, it just doesn't seem to be a good idea to continue to make the car. I know that I may be flamed, and I know that this is the HSC/Next NSX forum, but why do some people insist that Honda needs to chase the numbers of every other carmakers super car... Get this; The NSX is more than capable in keeping up with any of the so-called super cars, sans ENZO, Carrera GT, and the like, on any given day. On the track it handles with any of them with the correct driver. I know that there are some that want to bench race without having to. (My car has 500hp) Does a 1/4-mile time really mean that much to a buyer looking at the NSX or the 911 or any car in those classes?
I mean the car is just plain nice as it is, I think all of the other cars may out power it; they will have a hard time out finessing it. The other cars are just catching up. Talk to the guys that drive their NSXs on the track all of the time, Ask them, Where on the track they are you being passed? If at all it will be on a long straight by a fully prepped car or a Radical or something. In competent hands there are few that will leave this car in their wake. It's that good.
I am not in love with the car, those that know me will tell you. But I have been around a lot of different cars, owned a few, and gotten to drive a few. HP is great for the straights, but I'll let you drive the 430,GT3, 996TT or any other car that is in the same class of the NSX and then I will give the keys to the NSX to NSX racer, Andrie, NSXtacy, Docjohn, guys that are constantly on the track, and they are still going to wipe the floor with the other cars.
There are cures for the HP wars.(FI) If you want the car to be faster on the track. it's the nut behind the wheel.
If you are a HP buff, I can respect that. I chose the NSX as the car that I wanted to Mod the heck out of. It's one of my favorite cars of all time. It's looks are timeless, It's balance and engineering is the standard that others are chasing, It will always perform they way it performs, just plain silky in the correct hands.
I would love to see the HSC or whatever Honda decides to come up with. But It's not necessary for me to have a replacement for my NSX. I think the guys that were saying "enhance the Power a little" were on the right track.
I would love to see the current car offered up in a package that was like the Widebody kits that are out there and a full complement of addons that can be tailored to the driver/owner. Not just FI. I would love to see honda engineered brakes for the track hounds, suspension setups that are available in the US. NA mods that are available here. Wheels that are lightweight yet attractive. Just mix it up a little would go a long way. Offer the 06 in a track or GT version, I would be all over it.
All the way on topic. You want disappointment, come to a St. Louis auto show.
We get jack. It is just plain pathetic. JAO
Len
len3.8 said:From the Lexus post:
I think the design is interesting. I am not sure it is good looking yet, but it is certainly different.
The engine on the other hand sounds incredible. Under 5L and over 500 HP. This would be the perfect engine for the next NSX
If Toyota can do it, surely Honda can.
Another:
I don't know what is going through their heads. I think Honda is letting us all down. I am pretty sure they are going to lose a lot of thier loyal buyers when they drop any kind of performance car from their line up.
Not picking on you NV. Just reading this post and the Lexus post.
I am sorry, I got to ask, who are their loyal buyers from the performance car end of things?
Surely it's not the purchasers of the many used NSX's that comprises much of NSXPrime's member's ownership.
If Honda is doing the HSC or Whatever to prove a point to the rest of the automakers, why should they rush? Why wouldn't they wait? I would take my time. How many new ones sell per year? Are they making a killing selling NSX parts? Why would a company such as Honda concentrate on a car with such a low sales volume? I wouldn't rush to put it out. The marketing is in the surprise. Get the most mileage that they can garner from the introduction. Shock the industry once again. They cannot do that when everyone is expecting them to do it.
They have to approach it the same way they did at its introduction. Their loyal buyers are not on this board.
They are selling so many different products. The NSX has become their benchmark yes, but it seems to be a itch of someone’s. It still sells modestly, with a 500HP motor, I have no doubt that others on this board would go out and buy it. Others that aren't owners may pop for one as well.
Honda shouldn't build the NSX for a group of people that are waiting to reclaim bragging rights on the car boards of the Internet. Yes I know that word of mouth will keep the marks in the minds of many. But as a money making venture, it just doesn't seem to be a good idea to continue to make the car. I know that I may be flamed, and I know that this is the HSC/Next NSX forum, but why do some people insist that Honda needs to chase the numbers of every other carmakers super car... Get this; The NSX is more than capable in keeping up with any of the so-called super cars, sans ENZO, Carrera GT, and the like, on any given day. On the track it handles with any of them with the correct driver. I know that there are some that want to bench race without having to. (My car has 500hp) Does a 1/4-mile time really mean that much to a buyer looking at the NSX or the 911 or any car in those classes?
I mean the car is just plain nice as it is, I think all of the other cars may out power it; they will have a hard time out finessing it. The other cars are just catching up. Talk to the guys that drive their NSXs on the track all of the time, Ask them, Where on the track they are you being passed? If at all it will be on a long straight by a fully prepped car or a Radical or something. In competent hands there are few that will leave this car in their wake. It's that good.
I am not in love with the car, those that know me will tell you. But I have been around a lot of different cars, owned a few, and gotten to drive a few. HP is great for the straights, but I'll let you drive the 430,GT3, 996TT or any other car that is in the same class of the NSX and then I will give the keys to the NSX to NSX racer, Andrie, NSXtacy, Docjohn, guys that are constantly on the track, and they are still going to wipe the floor with the other cars.
There are cures for the HP wars.(FI) If you want the car to be faster on the track. it's the nut behind the wheel.
If you are a HP buff, I can respect that. I chose the NSX as the car that I wanted to Mod the heck out of. It's one of my favorite cars of all time. It's looks are timeless, It's balance and engineering is the standard that others are chasing, It will always perform they way it performs, just plain silky in the correct hands.
I would love to see the HSC or whatever Honda decides to come up with. But It's not necessary for me to have a replacement for my NSX. I think the guys that were saying "enhance the Power a little" were on the right track.
I would love to see the current car offered up in a package that was like the Widebody kits that are out there and a full complement of addons that can be tailored to the driver/owner. Not just FI. I would love to see honda engineered brakes for the track hounds, suspension setups that are available in the US. NA mods that are available here. Wheels that are lightweight yet attractive. Just mix it up a little would go a long way. Offer the 06 in a track or GT version, I would be all over it.
All the way on topic. You want disappointment, come to a St. Louis auto show.
JAO
Len
Len,
Nice of you to pay such close attention to my posts
I would disagree with you saying there are no potential buyers on this site. It might not be 100%, but there are a lot of us. I would say that there are not too many people here though that can afford to buy a new next-gen NSX. Maybe 25-35%. Just a guess. There will also be a lot of us that will be a used one.
As for your "increase hp a little" idea. Again, I disagree. The F430 and Gallardo will Pound the nsx with equal drivers. If they can build very well balanced cars with 500HP, why not have the next NSX be the same forumla. Watch the best motoring videos of the NSX-R vs lambos. As soon as there is a long straight, it is bye bye NSX. Why does it have to be that way? It doesn't.
I think Porsche has been sucessful for a very long time with the 911 because they offer so many options for their consumers. If Honda were to take a similar apporach, I think it would work too.
The next car needs to be wider, with more interior room and storage. It must have an updated interior with the latest gismos. Here are my ideas:
06 NSX2 2900 lbs, 3.5: V6 380HP. $75,000
06 NSX2-Turbo 2950lbs, 3.5L V6 475HP $90,000
06 NSX2-R 2800lbs, 5.0L V10 550 HP. $125,000.
If you want to see the HSC, you have to go to the Honda Collection Museum in Motegi. I went there last year. The year before that, I saw the HSC at the Honda Welcome Plaza.
NetViper said:Len,
Nice of you to pay such close attention to my posts
I would disagree with you saying there are no potential buyers on this site. It might not be 100%, but there are a lot of us. I would say that there are not too many people here though that can afford to buy a new next-gen NSX. Maybe 25-35%. Just a guess. There will also be a lot of us that will be a used one.
As for your "increase hp a little" idea. Again, I disagree. The F430 and Gallardo will Pound the nsx with equal drivers. If they can build very well balanced cars with 500HP, why not have the next NSX be the same forumla. Watch the best motoring videos of the NSX-R vs lambos. As soon as there is a long straight, it is bye bye NSX. Why does it have to be that way? It doesn't.
I think Porsche has been sucessful for a very long time with the 911 because they offer so many options for their consumers. If Honda were to take a similar apporach, I think it would work too.
The next car needs to be wider, with more interior room and storage. It must have an updated interior with the latest gismos. Here are my ideas:
06 NSX2 2900 lbs, 3.5: V6 380HP. $75,000
06 NSX2-Turbo 2950lbs, 3.5L V6 475HP $90,000
06 NSX2-R 2800lbs, 5.0L V10 550 HP. $125,000.
Didn't say people on this board would not go out and buy it.
I said, " I have no doubt that others on this board would go out and buy it."
F430, not even out yet, so you are basing your thoughts on Ferrari's claims. The Gallardo is faster then the NSX, I happen to know that after short times it has to come off the track. So is it really a better car? Maybe for a short peiod of time, and it still didn't pound the NSX.
Porsche has found longevity with the 911, true. But the 911 has not always been a successful seller. As far as so many options, actually it was quite the opposite. There was the Turbo or the Coupe/Targa until 83.(cab) Then all three were/are offered the same way since.
The GT2's and GT3's were sprinkled in here and there.
The motor was the same unless it was a turbo or you were in Europe. The 996/986/Cayenne has made Porsche the company that they are now.
The 911 has a cult following, most of the guys that own the older 911's will not touch a newer 911, so Porsche chose to market to other groups and it paid off for them.
So they kind of did what Honda and others have done, diversify. They had to come up with other cars to stay afloat. The 944/968 gone- dismal sales, 928 supercar extrodinaire (sp) gone, it was actually made to replace the 911. They copied people and came up with more cars to fall into different Niches. They copied what Honda, Toyota and others had been doing for the longest. They even stopped racing.
The 996 is almost laughed at unless it's a Turbo. Look at the values of older 911's (Aircooled) those are the ones that everyone wants. Porsche did an about face to recapture some of the faithful, they made the 997 look like the 993. Will it sell yes, not to it's core people. and it's faster and handles much better than any of the older cars.
As far as buyers buying used cars, tell me how that helps Honda, other than selling parts? The used cars may benifit the Dealers, but not Honda. the used car owner will look for the best service at the best price, so the dealers will miss out on that portion of the sales as well.
Based on you description of the next car, I feel that you are describing a GT not a sports car. I don't think of the NSX as a grand tourer. It's a sports car. Gallardo a GT that mimics a sports car for short periods of time.
F430, we'll see when it comes out. I would love o have both, but neither will walk all over the NSX. The may be faster in the straight line. They are not ahead at all in the handling department. Just my observation.
06 NSX2 2900 lbs, 3.5: V6 380HP. $75,000
06 NSX2-Turbo 2950lbs, 3.5L V6 475HP $90,000
06 NSX2-R 2800lbs, 5.0L V10 550 HP. $125,000.
Your numbers are nice to look at, but some people are crying about 8k for a aftermarket Turbo now. 15K swing with your wishes. Not to mention that those prices wouldn't be anywhere close to the real ones. I understand that those are just your thoughts on what they should produce. I just want to know why they would with such modest returns. Bragging Rights?
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I'm as big a fan of the NSX as they come but I view it as a car that time (and Honda) has left behind. I've gotten to know Rob Morrison at DAL racing over the past year - in fact I bought his Speed World Challenge NSX which Andrie Hartanto and I are re-building. Rob and DAL race in the Grand AM Cup, GS class. The rules require the car be kept almost stock, with the exception of the requisite safety equipment. In fact, the DAL NSX uses stock brakes, transmission, engine, etc, as does its competition. As for competition, the GS class includes the 996, CTS-V, Nissan 350Z, Mustang SVT, Firebird, and few other makes/models. In this group, the NSX runs mid-pack, and DAL has some very fine drivers. For example, the CTS-V was a good 5 seconds a lap faster at the last Grand AM Cup race at Watkins Glen. Compared to the GT class, the NSX is 15+ seconds a lap slower than the M3, GT3, F360, etc. that run in that category. Or 8 seconds slowed than the Corvettes that run SGS class.
To be competitive in a series such as the SCCA World Challenge, the NSX must be supercharged - the only car that the SCCA allows to go from NA to forced induction. Without the 200+ HP gain of the supercharger (some might contend that the RTR supercharger increased output by over 300 HP) it would be no contest for the NSX in that series.
Today's cars are significantly better than anything designed 15 years ago. Consider that the F430 is 0.7 seconds faster to 60 than the F40, and 0.3 seconds faster than the F50. And given that the F360 Challenge runs laps at Watkins Glen about 12 seconds faster than the best NSX, the F430 will only extend that margin another few seconds.
BTW, I haven't seen the NSX is any new car magazine super car shootout in over 2 years - it would be very interesting to see how it stacks up against the usual suspects.
JMO.
TC
To be competitive in a series such as the SCCA World Challenge, the NSX must be supercharged - the only car that the SCCA allows to go from NA to forced induction. Without the 200+ HP gain of the supercharger (some might contend that the RTR supercharger increased output by over 300 HP) it would be no contest for the NSX in that series.
Today's cars are significantly better than anything designed 15 years ago. Consider that the F430 is 0.7 seconds faster to 60 than the F40, and 0.3 seconds faster than the F50. And given that the F360 Challenge runs laps at Watkins Glen about 12 seconds faster than the best NSX, the F430 will only extend that margin another few seconds.
BTW, I haven't seen the NSX is any new car magazine super car shootout in over 2 years - it would be very interesting to see how it stacks up against the usual suspects.
JMO.
TC
TC said:
TC, thanks for the input.
If the NSX was Supercharged or had the additional power of a Supercharger as a NA car, would it then be competitive in the other class (GS) that it runs in?
Sorry to quick with the post. I am asking in this way because you didn't specify why it was slower in those classes. I don't want to assume it is all because it is underpowered, even though I believe that is the main reason. Improved brakes, 300-350HP, How much of a difference do you feel this would make?
Thanks.
len3.8 said:
Good question. What is the weakness of the NSX compared to cars that class?
I have a hard time believing the NSX is 15+ seconds slower than an M3??
Power is definitely the main culprit. In the Sept 2002 issue of Car & Driver, a Comptech supercharged NSX performed as follows: “0 to 100 came two seconds quicker than stock, at 9.7 seconds, and 100 to 150 - the most telling – elapsed in 17.1 seconds, 9.8 seconds sooner than stock.” In the same article, a stock Z06, Viper GTS and 911 Turbo did the 100-150 run in 15.8, 12.9 and 13.5 seconds respectively. Comparing stock to stock, the Z06 is over 10 seconds faster from 100 to 150 than the NSX. That big. And I think that it is safe to assume that most newer super sports cars – GT2, GT3, F360, F430, C6 Z06, Ford GT – have even bigger high-speed acceleration advantages.
That said, power alone won’t solve all of the NSX’s competitive disadvantages. The guys at RTR told me that they had to replace the NSX transmission every other weekend due to damage inflicted by the power coming from their supercharged motor. So with more power, the NSX tranny needs upgrade. Not to mention an automatic clutching mechanism such as the Ferrari F360/430 F1 transmission that shifts in a mere 150 milliseconds.
NSX stock brakes are OK but hardly comparable to the race-ready brakes on most of the competition. And Porsche and Ferrari both offer ceramic and/or carbon rotors as options on the 911 and F430. And their rotors are larger, as are the calipers. The NSX ABS unit is from a mid-80’s Civic, not comparable in performance to the units on today’s super cars.
The NSX chassis is great but designed at a different time. Rob Morrison had huge problems fitting the required 18” (required by the SCCA for racing in the WC) wheels on the front of his car – the NSX just wasn’t designed to house such large wheels up front. As the result, he lost about ½ of the steering travel. While not a problem on the track, getting onto the grid, turning around in the paddock, getting back on track after an off required him to maneuver back and forth a dozen times. And bigger wheels enable bigger brake rotors.
Aerodynamics are also a factor. The NSX generates lift at speeds over 100 MPH, whereas the F360 produces a couple of hundred pounds of negative lift, and the F430 another 100 more.
And, today’s electronics – stability control, launch control, electronic differential – all add a second here and there.
But all said, it’s the power. Another 100 HP, a serious brake upgrade and better aerodynamics (especially under the car) would do wonders for the NSX.
As for NetViper’s question/comment - the M3 runs in the Grand AM GT series, which has different rules as to allowed modifications, so you can’t quite make a direct comparison between the NSX in the GS class versus an M3 in the GT class. But you can directly compare cars within the GS class – which about as close to stock as any race series.
That said, power alone won’t solve all of the NSX’s competitive disadvantages. The guys at RTR told me that they had to replace the NSX transmission every other weekend due to damage inflicted by the power coming from their supercharged motor. So with more power, the NSX tranny needs upgrade. Not to mention an automatic clutching mechanism such as the Ferrari F360/430 F1 transmission that shifts in a mere 150 milliseconds.
NSX stock brakes are OK but hardly comparable to the race-ready brakes on most of the competition. And Porsche and Ferrari both offer ceramic and/or carbon rotors as options on the 911 and F430. And their rotors are larger, as are the calipers. The NSX ABS unit is from a mid-80’s Civic, not comparable in performance to the units on today’s super cars.
The NSX chassis is great but designed at a different time. Rob Morrison had huge problems fitting the required 18” (required by the SCCA for racing in the WC) wheels on the front of his car – the NSX just wasn’t designed to house such large wheels up front. As the result, he lost about ½ of the steering travel. While not a problem on the track, getting onto the grid, turning around in the paddock, getting back on track after an off required him to maneuver back and forth a dozen times. And bigger wheels enable bigger brake rotors.
Aerodynamics are also a factor. The NSX generates lift at speeds over 100 MPH, whereas the F360 produces a couple of hundred pounds of negative lift, and the F430 another 100 more.
And, today’s electronics – stability control, launch control, electronic differential – all add a second here and there.
But all said, it’s the power. Another 100 HP, a serious brake upgrade and better aerodynamics (especially under the car) would do wonders for the NSX.
As for NetViper’s question/comment - the M3 runs in the Grand AM GT series, which has different rules as to allowed modifications, so you can’t quite make a direct comparison between the NSX in the GS class versus an M3 in the GT class. But you can directly compare cars within the GS class – which about as close to stock as any race series.
I see where some people see the faults in the NSX and yes, I have not seen a good mainstream NSX shootout in some time. What still amazes me (not only just driving mine) but when I see the Best Motoring videos where the NSX does very well against modern day Lamborghini, Ferrari, Porsche and other competitors. You can see on the straights the limits due to power but breaking and cornering are excellent. Granted this is with a Type R version a lot of the time but for a chassis and design that has been arround for a awhile I think that says a lot.
Nik
Nik
nik3sgte said:
I for one am glad the NSX is good at not breaking
NetViper said:I for one am glad the NSX is good at not breaking
Ouch, that's what I get for typing fast. Ah well, you get my point
If you know Rob and anything about GAC, you would know that if the rules were the same across the board the NSX would be winning alot in GA. The biggest problem is that the organizers do not want a car that is not supported by the manufactures to be running up front. All the other cars in GS are allowed significant modifications over the NSX. Bigger different wheels, headers, Alcon brakes.TC said:
Your lap time quotes are rediculous. I like how you compare a NSX to a Gt car M3 or whatever that is not even a street tub. Most of those cars have a body(very little of it) and engine block(some) in common with there street counterparts and thats it. GS for the NSX is closer to taking a street nsx and putting track tires on it with only safety mods allowed and you compare it to the c5R????????????? Not a single part from the street car?
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