Carbon Fiber durability

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Any materials engineers here? What negative properties does CF have compared to aluminum and steal? I have heard that high heat weakens or deteriorates it. Would CF deform within a couple years if it were to be used for body paneling on a production car?

Small airplanes use CF for their wings and fuselage these days no?

I just had some curiousity about the material.
 
kenjiMR said:
?

Small airplanes use CF for their wings and fuselage these days no?

I just had some curiousity about the material.

I far from being an expert, but I believe even the Stealth Bomber uses some sort of Carbon Fiber for the wings.
 
kenjiMR said:
Any materials engineers here? What negative properties does CF have compared to aluminum and steal? I have heard that high heat weakens or deteriorates it. Would CF deform within a couple years if it were to be used for body paneling on a production car?

(Dont quote me, Im not a ME.)

CF doesnt fail progressively like steel or aluminum. When you approach the limits of a metal part, it will usually stretch or deform and give you a visible indication that the part is failing. CF is far less forgiving and will just break when its limits are exceeded.

As per heat resistance, I think the matrix (epoxy, etc) determines the heat resistance. Some CF plate Ive used are ok up to 450F. From what Ive read, the space shuttle carbon/carbon panels are CF in some sort of carbon matrix. They basically heat it until the glue turns to carbon -- hence carbon/carbon, so its already "pre-burned" :) Unfortunately, its quite brittle as NASA is finding out.

The mclaren f1 and F50 are both largely CF and I havent heard any complaints about the body panels sagging.


Interestingly, structural aluminum is less heat resistant than CF though since heating it over ~300F starts to ruin its temper and it turns to mush (ok, its not quite mushy, but its properties decline quickly).



Small airplanes use CF for their wings and fuselage these days no?

Burt Rutan is notorious for creating record breaking airplanes using CF. As ChrisK pointed out, the B2 bomber uses CF -- as does the F117, F22, JSF, Commanche, etc.
 
Re: Re: Carbon Fiber durability

JoeSchmoe said:
(Dont quote me, Im not a ME.)

Burt Rutan is notorious for creating record breaking airplanes using CF. As ChrisK pointed out, the B2 bomber uses CF -- as does the F117, F22, JSF, Commanche, etc.

Thats the dude that is trying to win the X-Prize right? SpaceShipOne.
 
Re: Re: Carbon Fiber durability

JoeSchmoe said:
The mclaren f1 and F50 are both largely CF and I havent heard any complaints about the body panels sagging.

Maybe this is not very indicative: I think that they get a lot less weather related abuse than normal cars. Furthermore they are relatively recent... I have no idea how the panel will behave in 10? 20? 30 years?

PS: I haven't heard any compalints too :D ... wait... I do not know anybody who has them! :p
 
There are no long term structural issues with carbon panels. Because they are inert and will not corrode like (bare) metal they should last much longer than steel or aluminum or even aluminium :--) When talking about weather abuse it is the paint that takes this not the underlying material.
 
I was hoping to find references to technical documents from long term stress research. If CF was such a viable material for a production car, I would think it would be more widely used by now. I know the manufacturing process is much longer, but that might be able to be streamlined with new types of machines.
 
A problem when designing cars is what happens in an accident. Pedestrian damage is a big design criteria these days. If a person was run over hit CF bodywork that shattered into sharp pieces and injured them, CF isn't a good idea.


Also imagine a CF bumper that cracked or shattered when some numpty hit it with their SUV in a car park.
 
Are you saying this with knowledge of criterias in DOT regulations? There are street legal cars with CF body panels. You are saying that mass produced sports car couldn't use CF due to saftey issues?

j14nsx said:
A problem when designing cars is what happens in an accident. Pedestrian damage is a big design criteria these days. If a person was run over hit CF bodywork that shattered into sharp pieces and injured them, CF isn't a good idea.


Also imagine a CF bumper that cracked or shattered when some numpty hit it with their SUV in a car park.
 
Re: Re: Re: Carbon Fiber durability

gheba_nsx said:
Furthermore they are relatively recent... I have no idea how the panel will behave in 10? 20? 30 years?

Oh, I forgot to mention the F40 (16 years old?) had CF bodywork as well.
 
they don't seem to have problems with selling TVRs in the UK though, the body is fibre glass which definately shatters when hit, easily rips off. I think Lotus Elise bodies are made of same stuff.

Carbon Fibre on the other hand, I don't think they break up as easily. I have seen Carbon Fibre bonnets after head on collision, which was still in one piece.
 
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