Can you install aftermarket pistons without any boring or machine work?

[jaffaz32]

I recently asked could i run more power than 400whp on a stock 3.0 just by installing metal gaskets, arp head kit. In short the answer was no.

It turns out you need pistons also. The combination of Pistons, ARP head kit and metal head gasket will allow you to run 500whp, is this correct?

If this is the case, does anyone make suitable aftermarket pistons for the factory bore? Would this mean they can be swapped out without completely stripping everything for it to be bored and machined.

I saw this post.

http://www.nsxprime.com/forum/showt...rillo-Pistons-set-(with-Rings-amp-wrist-pins)

Could i just get the standard 90mm pistons and fit straight in without any hassle or machining? What are your thoughts?

With suitable pistons, Gaskets, head bolts could i safely run 500whp if not how close? what compression would you suggest?

 

[kookoo4nsx]

Why is machining a hassle? In order to swap pistons the heads, headers,TB, oil pan, crank and a million other things have to come off. As for metal gaskets and arp stud kit, I think with PROPER tuning 450rwhp is about the max. You will need a darn good clutch sush as the SOS 6 Puck because you will be pushing 350+ftlb torque at the wheels, which is over 400 at the crank.

There is a reason so many of us run SC or Turbo in the 350-415rwhp range. It's affordable, reliable and FUN! IMO the extra 50-100hp is not worth double the cost. 500rwhp can get you in ALOT of trouble, FAST so you need mad driving skillz.

 

[jaffaz32]

I have almost ticked all the boxes on all the other parts needed or advised. I have the Sos Carbon Carbon clutch.

The only thing i have slightly underlooked is the brakes, they are aftermarket all round but not as good as they could be.

Machining is a pain because you have to fully dismantle the block and remove from gearbox etc. I might be wrong but you might be able to drop the sump crank, rods and pistons while the engine is in the car with all bolt-on still attached. Making swapping just the pistons a fairly reasonable job.

If you drop the block and fully strip it you then think well i've gone this far i might as well spend extra on extra parts to take me that bit further than 500whp then before you know in parts have gone from $1000-$1500 right to what ever everything costs which is twice or more plus other external costs. I'm just looking at a short term bang for buck. something to increase reliability while running a little more power maybe not pushing it to the next level well right to the barrier.

If i went crazy i would import a built engine, mega bucks. If i changed pistons, gaskets and head studs it would cost me not very much after parts because my mechanic looks after me extremely well. My customs brings in all my mates custom.

I'm changing the oil pump anyway, everything else is new as of last year, water pump, cam belt, crank pulley etc etc.

If i could change just pistons for $800 gaskets $200 and bolts $300? it's not cost my a great deal and a no brainer. As soon as machining is involved remember i live in rip off Britain and lack of decent shops without going to racing teams prices are crazy. My mechanic will charge me about $250 to fit pistons, gaskets and head bolts. But that's assuming they can be installed without machining involved.

 

[BATMANs]

Installing pistons without machining?

Good luck not having a leak and/or blue smoke from ur tail pipe.

Gotta pay to play.

 

[ken sampson]

I have a set of rods that have already be machined with pin and 3.2L JE pistions I would sell cheap. I would scrap the pistions or have them checked out.. I just finished my 3.5L Ct motor build.
send me a PM if you are interested.
Ken

 

[jaffaz32]

Thanks, ok. Perhaps not a option then. I thought it might perhaps seal with a 90mm piston and new rings.

I didn't really know.

If i wanted to do it, what would i need to do? only bore the cylinders or would there be additional work? would you reuse the bearings? or have to replace?

What's the difference between 3.0 and 3.2 Cylinders? Just a bigger bore? or a different sleeve? in other words can you bore the 3.0 sleeve for a 3.2 piston? if i consider this route should i be using a 3.2 piston to increase the bore? i.e more power? mainly out of boost i guess.

- - - Updated - - -

Answered my own question the 3.2 uses a different sleeve so you can't use 3.2 pistons unless it's re-sleeved.

So this means i need to buy 90.5mm pistons.

So what's involved? what else do i need? and will this take me 500whp reliably?

Can i just bore the cylinders, or is there further machining needed?

What has to be replaced? or done at the same time? new parts?

Can i just buy pistons, head gaskets and head bolts? or is there more needed? In other words can you re-use, other bolts crank bearings etc?

I will be leaving the heads as are in stock form. If i can't do this on a budget i will leave it and import a built motor at a later date. to bore the block local race team charges £25 per cylinder, so £150 for all 6. If that's all what needs doing it isn't going to break the bank, just more work than i wanted really.

Can someone please help explain all this.

thanks.

 

[ken sampson]

Im not selling the pistons they are free. I'm selling the rods and custom pins needed to to change your pistons.
Ken

 

[Stephen@NCAutoUSA]

Do it the right way.

Research a legit machinist.
Pay half now
Give him your items
Tell him to fit these items within these clearances
Get a deadline and contract if possible
Pay other half on completion.

With the imperfection and sometimes wear on bores and such I wouldn't chance just installing aftermarket pistons and hoping they work out. Considering I've heard that 3.0 tends to "oval" slightly it needs to be checked.

- - - Updated - - -

Thanks, ok. Perhaps not a option then. I thought it might perhaps seal with a 90mm piston and new rings.

I didn't really know.

If i wanted to do it, what would i need to do? only bore the cylinders or would there be additional work? would you reuse the bearings? or have to replace?

What's the difference between 3.0 and 3.2 Cylinders? Just a bigger bore? or a different sleeve? in other words can you bore the 3.0 sleeve for a 3.2 piston? if i consider this route should i be using a 3.2 piston to increase the bore? i.e more power? mainly out of boost i guess.

- - - Updated - - -

Answered my own question the 3.2 uses a different sleeve so you can't use 3.2 pistons unless it's re-sleeved.

So this means i need to buy 90.5mm pistons.

So what's involved? what else do i need? and will this take me 500whp reliably?

Can i just bore the cylinders, or is there further machining needed?

What has to be replaced? or done at the same time? new parts?

Can i just buy pistons, head gaskets and head bolts? or is there more needed? In other words can you re-use, other bolts crank bearings etc?

I will be leaving the heads as are in stock form. If i can't do this on a budget i will leave it and import a built motor at a later date. to bore the block local race team charges £25 per cylinder, so £150 for all 6. If that's all what needs doing it isn't going to break the bank, just more work than i wanted really.

Can someone please help explain all this.

thanks.

I went basically the same route as you. Have about 5k on my stock 3.0 cylinder walls. I went with 90.5mm pistons and had a machinist bore and hone the walls. You'll need this... I went with different bearings to fit my clearances. I had a few particular instances where I'm guessing if you have a builder that builds nsx engines then he'll probably know exactly what color bearings and things to get or has record but I think every engine has different wear before being built or crank so from what I'm told bearings are like a crap shoot where it's you "order some and if they aren't right you order different ones".

If you had a 3.2 motor I believe they are sleeved from factory so you'd need to actually get darton or benson sleeves to go in there. If I had to do it again I would probably get my motor sleeved because now if I want to run more reliable power I'd be hesitant to do so on stock 3.0 walls. But you figure at least 1k in sleeves to purchase, plus another 800-1000 I guess for install? My prices may be off so don't quote me on that.

 

[BATMANs]

My understanding is that the 3.2 motor are NOT sleeved, but the bare aluminum walls of the block are treated or embedded with some bogus material.

The reason why u want to hone the sleeves is that every used sleeve have a unique scuff/wear mark to the original piston.

jaffaz32, u read my engine build post?

BTW, what are ur mods and future goals?

 

[doc_tai]

U don't need forged piston to run 400 whp unless u have shitty tuner. If u wanna drop 90mm piston in without machine the least u do is hone the cylinder wall a little bit. But there's no guaranty its gonna seal right. I did that once on my low mileage integra( under 60k miles) back in the 2001 without any problem cause i didnt know any better to run toda B cams on stock compression. but if I know what I know now I wouldn't do it lol

 

[jaffaz32]

I did read your engine build thread a while back but you went to a much higher level than i was looking at doing. I'm affectively doing it twice, now to get a little extra bang and for added reliability and the second time round i'll go all out with either a SOS or LoveFab built block and lots of options. So what ever i spend now is essentially wasted money hence as cheap as possible.

My future goal would be in the 600-700bhp region perhaps. can't say until i got there and decided if i want to back the power off.

Current goal is 500bhp whp.

Current specs:

Sos carbon twin plate clutch
ATI pulley
ATS LSD
Cam plugs ends
Kevlar timing belt
vvis removed
ported intake manifold
Blox big bore throttle body
Baffled sump
external oil cooler
Pure Power oil filter


That's pretty much it engine wise.

Turbo kit will be a LoveFab with their longer headers etc. So lots of scope to run big power if i had the right internals. I already have AEM FIC, Meth, ID injectors all not fitted yet though. Everything else comes with turbo kit.

I could buy a SOS stage 1, job done easy. But I really want the stage 3 or maybe 2, so i can't justify the expense of 5K. If i get my mechanic to do it and i only need a few parts and the block to be bored it will cost me half of that all built and fitted. Engine has to come out anyway for the new oil pump when it arrives.

- - - Updated - - -

U don't need forged piston to run 400 whp unless u have shitty tuner

would like to run 500 whp ideally.

 

[doc_tai]

Do not try to make 500 whp on aem fic, I rather take my chance to run aem ems with meth injection on stock motor than running fic on built motor.

 

[jaffaz32]

Do not try to make 500 whp on aem fic, I rather take my chance to run aem ems with meth injection than running fic on built motor.

oh really, whats most for fic? is it because lack of adjustability? guess lack of timing doesn't help either

- - - Updated - - -

Do not try to make 500 whp on aem fic, I rather take my chance to run aem ems with meth injection than running fic on built motor.

oh really, whats most for fic? is it because lack of adjustability? guess lack of timing doesn't help either

 

[kookoo4nsx]

I think the limiting factor on the FIC is it's ability to pull timing. 9 or 9.5psi is the absolute MAX. That's why most run 7-8psi. 8psi should be good for 415rwhp. If 500 is your goal you must go to EMS.

 

[jaffaz32]

I think the limiting factor on the FIC is it's ability to pull timing. 9 or 9.5psi is the absolute MAX. That's why most run 7-8psi. 8psi should be good for 415rwhp. If 500 is your goal you must go to EMS.

ok, i didn't know this. glad i asked.

what would 9.5 psi see me? 430whp perhaps? i saw a graph some where for estimated bhp and psi.

although that may be entirely bad, i wouldnt be pushing the motor right to the limit and the added extra would be nice while knowing it's much more reliable.

No point going ems. I was getting a Syvecs installed but needed a 2 pin DBW throttle body but might as well wait for the new AEM coming out.

 

[BATMANs]

Yes, DO NOT do the FIC for anything over 7~8 psi.

I learned the hard way going over that.

For building an engine I would recommend:

1. 2618 forged alloy pistons, not 4318 (which is also forged and is lighter, but isn't as strong)
2. blue print and balance the engine ( it's usually not that expensive but can mean that ur engine will last longer, less vibrations and a little more power)
3. cometic head gaskets
4. ARP 2000 bolts throughout

 

[jaffaz32]

ok thanks.

If that's the case i would only be doing this for reliability as with my FIC i couldn't run over 400whp because of the 8 psi restriction.

that's interesting to know.

I'll get some prices and see if i can justify the cost just for added reliability. The reality is, i will be changing the ecu probably around the time i could go for a built motor.

 

[d_prada1]

For the op you don't need to over bore when you use new pistons. You just need to hone the cylinders (slight scoring/sanding of the walls in a crossection pattern so the new piston rings can "file" against them creating a proper seal. I tried doing this once while skipping this step and I had major compression loss/ blow by. You can do it yourself on c30 motors. Just by the right grit stone (in the Honda repair manual) or talk to a good machine shop they can show you how if your engine is all taken apart already.

as for you batman the c32 use FRM fiber reinforced metal sleeves. This allows the sleeves to be thinner for the added bore and strengthens the sleeves BUT you have to use a special piston. These pistons have different metallurgic make up to match the expansion of the frm sleeves. normal pistons will expand too much and tear the frm sleeves up! There are few companies who make pistons for frm.

I did a stock stroker build using frm h22 frm pistons in my s2k f20c frm block with a k24 crank. I figured oem was the best route for that stuff.

My understanding is that the 3.2 motor are NOT sleeved, but the bare aluminum walls of the block are treated or embedded with some bogus material.

The reason why u want to hone the sleeves is that every used sleeve have a unique scuff/wear mark to the original piston.

jaffaz32, u read my engine build post?

BTW, what are ur mods and future goals?

 

[EAC]

500 whp on stock 155K motor and FIC here.... lol

 

[DDozier]

500 whp on stock 155K motor and FIC here.... lol

Yah but you are spraying meth to keep it alive, not a bad thing but is most deffitely a factor.

442whp on 3.2l @ 8.4lbs about 2500 street miles at this setting
399.7whp on 3.2l @ 6.4lbs about 3500 track miles at this setting

All on F/IC w/ 550cc injectors and no meth. I think I will hit the 500whp with 9.5-10lbs and meth but have not tried.

Dave

 

[EAC]

True! Are you going to be around Saturday? I'm in serious need of some Meth. I've been running on fumes for awhile!

Yah but you are spraying meth to keep it alive, not a bad thing but is most deffitely a factor.

442whp on 3.2l @ 8.4lbs about 2500 street miles at this setting
399.7whp on 3.2l @ 6.4lbs about 3500 track miles at this setting

All on F/IC w/ 550cc injectors and no meth. I think I will hit the 500whp with 9.5-10lbs and meth but have not tried.

Dave