Brake related questions

goldNSX · 2 February 2008

I have a few questions regarding the 91-96 to 97+ swap.

1. Best strategy to remove those two screws of the brake discs (pic)? Lender of last resort would be drilling. Any better solution before I do that?

2. The calipers move about have an inch outward. Reusing the 91-96 brake lines or buy new ones?

3. Which one to choose HAWK HPS or HP+ for a street car?

4. Do I need anything else for the Racing Brake brackets, esp. parts between the caliper and brackets?

Thanks for your suggestion.

nigel · 2 February 2008

The screws can be hard if they've been installed without anti-seize or just been in a long time. Get a hand held impact driver, (Harbour Freight, Sears, NAPA etc) don't buy an expensive one as you don't use them that often, and a #3 phillips tip. Insert it in the hole and bash it with a good firm,(hard) blow and it will pop loose. If you've already messed up the grooves then a drill bit and vice grips are the only way. Use anti-seize when you reinstall the new ones your going to buy, ($3.00 ea, call JR at 1-888-RAY-LAKS, better price, tell him nigel said to call).
Buy stainless steel hoses from SOS for $100. (all four) and be done with it. No more worries there.
OEM pads stop well and have least dust for the street.

Cheers
nigel

MvM · 2 February 2008

Hi Thomas,

1. To remove the two small screws in the hub from the rotors you will need an impact screwdriver. That's the type that you have to bang with a hammer to loosen the screw. If that doesn't work you can always drill them. They are not absolutely necessary to hold the rotors.

2. The new brackets move only about .4 inch outward. There is plenty of room to use the old brake lines but a new set will never hurt of course. If you buy a complete front set of the Racing Brake kit then there is a set of SS-lines included.

3. I choose to use the Hawk HP+ pads. I used the Axxis Ultimate pads before and I like them and the HP+ pads are even more agressive. They also dust more. You mentioned once that you are not a particulary super-fast driver on the street, so you might be best served with te HPS pads. But someone who knows those better than I do might be able to comment on that better than me.

4. There is no need for anything else. You might want to check your pistons, rubber seals and grease since you are busy anyway.

It's not a difficult upgrade. Even I could do it :smile:

drew · 2 February 2008

I used the Dali stainless 91-96 brake lines when I did my 97+ conversion, the rear ones are bit short and are stressed when the car is on stands/lift.

goldNSX · 2 February 2008

Thanks for your input. I've front calipers and brackets on order, discs and pads too.

1. impact screw driver. Let's see how it can loose 16 years old screws.

2. I'd like to use OEM lines as I'm not allowed to use steel lines in our country so far. I've had a closer look at them today and the lines are fixed at the knuckle. But what am I talking about $100. I'm gonna replace my 16 years old lines for safety reasons anyway.

3. What is the benefit of HP+ over HPS? Do HP+ work better at high temps or do they also bite better when cold? Do they shorten the brake distance? I guess no.
ASAI've read HP+ dust more. Does it count if I have gunmetal OEM 16/17? And they are less rotor friendly? What does that mean exactly? Do they wear the rotors faster OR do they grab lines in the rotors? HP+ are said to make more noise. From what I've heard this is not the case for the NSX?

MvM · 2 February 2008

From what I read about it, the HP+ pads are more agressive than the HPS pads. Meaning that their friction coefficient is higher, so, in other words, they bite more than the HPS pads.
They will most probably also be harder on your rotors as well of course. And yes, they do dust a lot. More so than the Axxis pads which are not exactly dustfree themselves. The dust is also more coarse then that of the Axxis pads and for some reasons more difficult to remove from my wheels. So I clean them a lot. Just something to think of in advance.
As for me, I like to brake late and hard, I am by no means easy on my brakes. I like to feel those decelleration forces working :smile:
Sometimes, there is a little noise at low speeds but only for a second or so, and, for some reasons, on from the rear. It doesn't bother me though.

I can only compare the HP+ to the Axxis Ultimate and OEM. OEM I simply didn't like very much. OK, they dust very little but they don't bite also. I simply did not trust my brakes. I switched to the Axxis pads and liked them better. More bite, more dust but also, better braking. And for me, it was the latter that counted.
Now I've upgraded my brakes with the Racing Brake kits and the HP+ pads and I just love my brakes now.

nsxtasy · 3 February 2008

I like the Hawk HP+ pads a lot. I use mine on the street and on the track, and the HP+ do well at both. On the street, they don't squeal, and they don't need to warm up to be effective. On the track, they hold up to heat very well. Yes, they dust quite a bit; if this is a concern, then get the OEM pads.

I don't know why people claim that the HP+ are "hard on the rotors". They aren't. This is not a concern at all.

asylum · 4 February 2008

goldNSX said:
1. impact screw driver. Let's see how it can loose 16 years old screws.

Spray the screws with WD-40 and use the impact srew driver. It worked on my 16 years old NSX :wink:

goldNSX · 4 February 2008

Impact screw driver, ey? I tell you what! I've lost an hour and a bloody (=f*cking) impact screw driver just a minute ago, not being able to loose even one of the eight bloody screws which were sprayed with WD40 24 hours ago. I've beaten the shit out of the tool and it's not even adjustable anymore. Arghh.

L8apex32 · 4 February 2008

goldNSX said:
Impact screw driver, ey? I tell you what! I've lost an hour and a bloody (=f*cking) impact screw driver just a minute ago, not being able to loose even one of the eight bloody screws which were sprayed with WD40 24 hours ago. I've beaten the shit out of the tool and it's not even adjustable anymore. Arghh.

Normally, one good whack breaks them loose. But, if not, don't sweat it. Just drill them out and be done with it. They are only "assembly screws" which are unnecessary to replace.

goldNSX · 4 February 2008

l8apex32 said:
Normally, one good whack breaks them loose. But, if not, don't sweat it. Just drill them out and be done with it. They are only "assembly screws" which are unnecessary to replace.

Thanks. Assembly screws??? Why do they torque these like idiots? Ok, I know, it's rust. I hate having drilled screws on my car. Oh my god, it's a wrenching-day.

NSXGB · 24 February 2008

If you are installing the RB 97+ conversion, you need the 97+ brake lines. The earlier brake lines are too short. You can get them to fit but for peace of mind get the later ones.

I went out and bought a new impact driver in preparation for a battle with the brake disc screws only to be able to undo all four of them by hand. :smile:

If you have never used an impact driver, make sure you are actually undoing the screw and not doing it tighter. :smile:

Synthesis · 24 February 2008

goldNSX said:
Thanks. Assembly screws??? Why do they torque these like idiots? Ok, I know, it's rust. I hate having drilled screws on my car. Oh my god, it's a wrenching-day.

don't know if you still need help...
i, too, hate drilling screws, but i don't think it's necessary.
- get a penetrating lubricant - PB Blaster works wonders.
- spray the hell out of the screws and let is soak for at least a few hours.
- use an impact screwdriver (like mentioned previously)
- if that doesn't work (if they still strip, like some of mine did) - use screw extractors; they work and are awesome. (actually, i have pretty much all hand tools, and i just bought a set and clamped it in a vise grip and manually turned them while keeping pressure and they came out.)
that should work.... i had to resort to the extractors on multiple screws.
these are the ones i used:
http://www.sears.com/shc/s/p_10153_12605_00952157000P?vName=Tools&keyword=screw+extractors
they are supposed to be used in a drill, but if you do it carefully by hand, you can get the same results.

i think the extractor and penetrating lube are key here. (also, in some cases, for removing your rotors after the screws are out!!)

goldNSX · 24 February 2008

In the meanwhile I was able to loose all screws with another impact screwdriver. Long story short: The new one must have been defective.

And in the meanwhile: new OEM brake discs are here, new longer brake lines too. Still waiting for the HP+. In April I'll give it a go.

Thanks to all for their suggestions.

Synthesis · 24 February 2008

also, i found it helpful to use a pick to scrape along the edge of the screw head before hitting it with the penetrating lube. makes it a little easier for the lube to to its thing.

goldNSX · 6 March 2008

Another question: I've unpacked the Honda OEM Brake discs and have seen different colors on them. It's not like the front ones are the same color and the rear ones are the same but different color. The discs which mount on the same axle have a very different color. One of them looks normal to me, the other looks dark grey (gun metal) like it has been heat treated or something like that. I'm not worried about that but just wondering if there's an explanation of this?

MvM · 6 March 2008

No clue at all why the rotors have a different color. Do the rotors come with a kind of protective film on them to prevent rust. The Stoptech rotors have that and it is recommend to clean them thoroughly with dishwasher soap or something similar before using them.
If the OEM discs have the same, maybe that film has discolored over time.

I don't think there is a production stamp on your rotors, but perhaps they are simply from a different production batch. The OEM rotors are not really bad, but they are also very low cost and low technology (most OEM rotors are).

goldNSX · 6 March 2008

MvM said:
No clue at all why the rotors have a different color. Do the rotors come with a kind of protective film on them to prevent rust. The Stoptech rotors have that and it is recommend to clean them thoroughly with dishwasher soap or something similar before using them.
If the OEM discs have the same, maybe that film has discolored over time.

They were closed in a plastic bag, so no air/water could corrode them. I've used Brake Cleaner. I may do a pic of them.

The OEM rotors are not really bad, but they are also very low cost and low technology (most OEM rotors are).

I'm forced to use them and I like to be safe with them.

OLDMNSX · 7 March 2008

Here is another trick that I learned when I used to work on airplanes. If the screw starts to get messed up with the screw driver. Flush all of the lubricant out of the screw and then put some valve grinding compound on the end of the screwdriver. Then the screwdriver apex will grab the screw and turn it out.

Sorry Nigel, you had your chance here. It must have been late at night when you posted your reply.
Brad

enkrypt3d · 8 March 2008

Thinking of getting this kit to revamp my brakes:

Brake Kits: Dali Mini Mouse Brake kit: 1991-1996
X-drilled & Slotted rotor package deal
http://www.daliracing.com/v666-5/catalog/index_browse_part.cfm?focus=576

Cryo Treatment for rotors: ALL 4
http://www.daliracing.com/v666-5/catalog/index_browse_part.cfm?focus=673
(Anyone ever tried this? for $95 it might be worth it!)
http://www.cryogenicsinternational.com/rotors.htm

Caliper Paint
Brake Caliper Color Coating [Silver]
http://www.daliracing.com/v666-5/catalog/index_browse_part.cfm?focus=699

This should last me a while - the car never gets tracked... thoughts? Just wondering if this is would give me decent improvement over OEM... ?

I'm trying not to spend $2k on brakes as much as I'd love to...... thanks!

nigel · 8 March 2008

Thanks for the acknowledgement Brad. I figured if he buggered it up with a #3 phillips tip and an impact driver it would be way past the valve seating compound trick.
I've been trying to keep up with your progress on the brake bleeding system, (your way ahead of me) and you definately have a good handle on it. Are you going to offer a service to the lads to repair / flush their modulators in the future? I think it would be money well spent by the early model year owners,(verses replacement from inop seats / seals) and a way for you to benefit for some of your long and in depth R&D. The community is better off for your time and interest.
All the best.

Cheers
nigel

goldNSX · 8 March 2008

Finally took a pic of them.

enkrypt3d · 9 March 2008

goldNSX said:
Finally took a pic of them.

thats odd...

Not to hijack the thread just wanted some input on my above post

Do you guys think this will be good enough for street driving? Thx

goldNSX · 11 April 2008

I'm in the middle of changing my brakes. One question (as the SM doesn't talk about that): What's the torque of the upper and lower screw of the brake lines?

drew · 11 April 2008

What's the torque of the upper and lower screw of the brake lines?

A sub-10 second search reveals the following:

http://www.nsxprime.com/forums/showpost.php?p=929261&postcount=11

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