Brake dusting rate

[92 white 0650]

I put on some Panther Plus pads in July and heat cycled them per the instructions. They dusted quite a bit around town on my white street wheels. After 1000 miles on the street, I went to Thunderhill for 2 days in early September and gave them a good workout. Putting my street wheels back on and driving on the street and out on back road twisties again, I noticed the brake dust rate was significantly less. Is this a normal life cycle characteristic of these pads? What's the reason?

 

[92 white 0650]

Well, I must have stumped you guys. Larry at Carbotech put it quite simply. Here's his answer:

"There is no doubt that "racing" pads need to be bedded, that is, to one degree or another, fully cured with the application
of heat and pressure (supplied graciously by the driver and car). Since your pads were driven on the street and not exposed to the rigors (read "high heat") of the track environment, they were not fully cured and thus were somewhat more prone to wear (read: dusting)."

Ted

 

[Soulstice]

So basically race the hell out of 'em and they dust less? Sounds good to me!

I also have the Panthers and must hose off the dust every 4-5 days.

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1996 Black/Tan NSX-T : Exedy racing clutch : JDM NSX-R short gears : Dali street/race swaybars
: Carbotech Panther Plus brake pads : Bridgestone Potenza S-03s

 

[Larry Bastanza]

Guys,

If you want to bed your brake pads, racing the hell out of them is not the answer. You want to "heat cycle" them.

5 stops 30-0mph, firm pressure but do not slam on them. IN between each run let them cool off.

5 stops 70-0mph, firm pressure but do not slam on them. In between each run let them cool off.

After the last set of five be heading towards home, park it overnight. Then they are bedded.

There are variances to this doing it in three steps, 30-0/50-0/80-0 if you wish.

The procedure has worked for me and many folks who put fresh pads on before they hit the race track. Each pad vendor may have a slightly different procedure, but above is the main concept, heat cycle.

HTH,
LarryB

 

[Soulstice]

My previous post was more sarcastic than anything serious. The tech who installed my pads followed the bedding procedure provided with the pads and then I did it again just for kicks.

However, I still get crazy amounts of dust.

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1996 Black/Tan NSX-T : Exedy racing clutch : JDM NSX-R short gears : Dali street/race swaybars
: Carbotech Panther Plus brake pads : Bridgestone Potenza S-03s

 

[92 white 0650]

Soulstice, even after proper bedding, the answer for dusting seems to be to track your car. Larry from Carbotech just sent me another related note:

"As an associated comment, we are developing a laser burnishing process that has been necessitated by the 1108XP and 1109XP (new for 2003) compounds; these materials require a bedding procedure unlike Panther Plus which is not as sensitive to lack of bedding other than exhibiting somewhat more dusting.
Thanx for the opportunity for explaining all of this to ya'all."

 

[cobalt]

Laser burnished was mocked at by Carbotech just last year, and they admitted last year that it would be used, if ever, as a marketing tool only. I know this because I used to be the VP of Carbotech, and left in part because of this type of unethical marketing.

Properly bedding in a pad material requires both heat, friction, and pressure. Heat treating alone will only reduce the bedding time necessary. Laser burnishing is a way for them to charge you more for the same thing, IMO.

For high-performance street driving, on the NSX, the limits to braking will be your tires, and using a track-derived compound on the street is not necessary, and in some cases, dangerous. For high-performance street driving, Cobalt customers use the Ferodo DS2500 or the Axxis Ultimate compounds.

For track use, I have the NSX set up in the Ferodo DS3000, which has been used and tested under race conditions on Honda/Acura and BMW vehicles, with excellent results, handily outperforming the Carbotech P+ and XP -- these are customer opinions (paying customers, and not people who received pads for free).

Also, LarryB's bedding instructions are accurate, and will work well for most pad compounds.

Lastly, for street/track use, for those people who cannot or don't want to change pads when they go to the track, the Carbotech P+ is a good solution. For those who want to and prefer to have different, duty-specific sets of pads, then there are much better options available. If you are buying street/track pads, here is a person who was very unhappy with the Carbotech Panther XP, which was sold to him as a street pad, which IMO, borders on professionally irresponsibility, as the heat requirements of this compounds are FAR too high for street use:
http://www.honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=252533

This customer ended up calling me for a solution, and is now very happy.

In the end, Cobalt sells what works, while many other companies sell what they can sell...the proof is in the pudding, as Cobalt customers will tell you.

JMO... -Andie

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andie w lin
cobalt friction technologies www.cobaltfriction.com
tel: 954.828.1515
fax: 954.828.1517

[This message has been edited by HomeDepotNSX (edited 05 October 2002).]

 

[Soulstice]

Good. I thought I was the only one going crazy. My panther+ pads have recently started squealing while rolling UNTIL I press the brake pedal. I called my dealership and their guess was that gravel had gotten lodged between the pad and rotor.

92 white 0650 -> do you suffer the same?



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'96 Black/Tan NSX-T : Exedy clutch, NSX-R short gears, Dali swaybars, Carbotech brake pads

 

[92 white 0650]

Normally, on the street, I drive with the windows up and the stereo on and don't hear any squealing. Coincidentally, however, in the last few days, I did some easy city driving with my windows down and did notice some squealing under gentle braking in traffic. They are quiet when free wheeling or under moderate or hard braking. I was thinking it might be caused by tire foam or detailer mist that had gotten on the rotors and that it would wear off quickly. I'll look into it further. I would expect gravel to make a terrible grinding noise under braking.

 

[nsxtasy]

Originally posted by Soulstice:
My panther+ pads have recently started squealing while rolling UNTIL I press the brake pedal. I called my dealership and their guess was that gravel had gotten lodged between the pad and rotor.

There are several possible reasons why pads might be squealing some of the time:

a. The pads might be worn and need changing. The wear indicator tabs may be coming into contact with the rotor. And yes, it may happen that they squeal when you are NOT on the brakes, or when you ARE on the brakes. It's worth checking your brake pad wear - especially if you have a '91-96, so you can easily check the pads visually through the spokes of the wheels, as noted here.

b. Some aftermarket pads, particularly aggressive compounds intended for track use, may squeal slightly under normal conditions. Panther Plus are known for this.

c. There could be gravel etc causing it. Unlikely, but possible.

If you're having this with Panther Plus pads, my first guess is (b). With stock pads, my first guess is (a), which is easy enough to check.

 

[Soulstice]

The very minor squeal when I lighty tap the brakes does not bother me. I knew of this noise beforehand and can accept it. But the constant squeeking when I'm NOT on the brakes drives me nuts. (The pads have only 600 miles on them BTW)

So I've done some research and apparently the anti-squeak grease doesn't work. So what's a solution other than replace the pads? Performance wise, I actually like the pads a lot and would like to keep 'em.

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'96 Black/Tan NSX-T : Exedy clutch, NSX-R short gears, Dali swaybars, Carbotech brake pads

 

[Lud]

Pull your wheels and re-check your brakes. If you have 600 mile pads and something is squealing when you are OFF the brakes, something is rubbing that shouldn't be. Maybe a stuck caliper or foreign object or something out of adjustment.

[This message has been edited by Lud (edited 08 October 2002).]

 

[burbel]

I would agree with Lud, it sounds like something might be a little out of adjustment. Which wheel is making the sound (front/rear, left/right)? If it's the fronts, you can jack the car, remove the wheel, and spin the rotor by hand, and see what the problem seems to be. With the rears, well, it's a bit more dificult, but a visual inspection might turn up something. If you want I would be more than willing to help you check this sometime after work...

 

[Soulstice]

Hey burbel, your offer sounds good. I'm hoping my soccer game gets canceled today because of the rain. I'll call you either way to let you know.

The noise is definitely coming from the passenger side. My guess is the front, but I haven't pin-pointed it yet (it just started recently).

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'96 Black/Tan NSX-T : Exedy clutch, NSX-R short gears, Dali swaybars, Carbotech brake pads