Billionaires dumping stocks
- Thread starter Big_D
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What is that supposed to mean exactly? We are having a polite and civil discussion here with friends I like. "Might have to call it a day" sounds like its not worth responding to me?
No Turbo, didn't mean it as a slight. To be honest I usually agree with you on the majority of topics brought up on Prime (even if I seldom reply). I was just stating that it could not be made more clear as to why the capital gains tax works the way it does.
Its just really puzzling to me that you've taken this stance on the topic.
Yes, yes we certainly do. :smile: Because where you see someone rich living a charmed life, I see someone, or someone before them, who infused a ton of business and money into our economy. Sure the Rockerfellers and Fords are probably living a fat cat life now, but the Rockerfellers and Fords of the past helped built what this country is today. I want more people like that because it only means our country is thriving and expanding. Paris Hilton living like a princess is only a by-product of someone building a fortune. It's like your NSX. Someone can look at your NSX and say, that jerk, look at him living that luxury life, driving their over powered sports car. What a charmed life he lives! But it's your reward from all your hard work. You've earned it. And if you pass it down to your kids, then you've earned the right to do that as well.
Also, while you my despise the Trumps and the Hiltons for living such a charmed life, I applaud them and aspire to be like them. I don't find any reason why I can't join their ranks and someday I hope to do so. I may or may not, but part of why I love living here in the USA is that I do not feel like I don't have a fair opportunity to do so. Sure it takes some luck and a lot of hard work and some people have slightly better odds than others, but I firmly believe it really is in the grasp of anyone who is willing to try. There are countless of stories of self made millionaires and I find no legitimate reason why I can't be one of them. I do not feel the "system" is rigged to keep me down or the rich are preventing me from getting there. I feel in control of my own destiny and I by no means have come from a charmed upbringing. I grew up poor, I'm a minority, I'm not particularly tall, talented or super smart. I have no special attributes that suggests I should succeed over anyone else, and yet I have succeeded and am well on my way to get to the Trumps and Hiltons. I've said this many times before, the biggest deterrent to someone's success is not the government or the rich or some other external force, it is themselves.
I think part of what is wrong with what is happening here in the US was all about the American Dream. We used to see a rich guy and say, wow I want to be like them. Now we despise the rich for being rich. And to me that's the wrong attitude. If we see someone like Donald Trump or Paris Hilton living this unfair life, then it should be our goal to be in their shoes. I bet there was a day once when you saw a guy with fancy car, maybe an NSX, and instead of cursing him for driving such a nice car, you said to yourself, someday I want to have a car like that. You worked your butt off and guess what, you did! Now you look at the Trumps and Hiltons and say, someday I want to live that like. If you really wanted to, I'm sure you could, or at least get close. But when you just curse them and say the system is rigged or they were just born into it, then you've eliminated any motivation to even try. Just like if you took that attitude to someone driving the NSX. If you just said well the only way to get one is to have rich parents, would you have aspired to try to get your own?
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Wow I just read this whole thread and I agree with?
turbo and vegas, both make factual points and have different opinions as you both pointed out.
I agree with turbo as I think that if you already made $10M that you are able to invest you are putting this money in the gamble being you're incentive to create money from money you have (supposedly) already paid taxes on, at this point what you gain from that investment in my opinion should be taxed just like the guy's pay check that works flipping burgers, the way I see it is the person had the choice of what to do with his money and decided to take the risk and was motivated by his confidence that his investment would be positive and in return create income, just like the small business owner he uses his earned money witch he worked for and payed taxes on to start his business and the profits created from this business is taxed equal to an employee (supposedly), I fell this is fair as this person made the decision to invest and knowingly assumes the risk and enjoy the profits from his decision minus tax, fair and square like the guy that chose to work for a pay check
I agree with vagas that the more you make should not subject you to unfair punishment of paying more (percentage wise) but paying equal would be fair as we all know there are enough loop holes to take advantage of, that by the time the tax is applied, 30% is usually on a watered down number any ways (but that is another story for a different thread).:biggrin:
Wow I just read this whole thread and I agree with?
turbo and vegas, both make factual points and have different opinions as you both pointed out.
I agree with turbo as I think that if you already made $10M that you are able to invest you are putting this money in the gamble being you're incentive to create money from money you have (supposedly) already paid taxes on, at this point what you gain from that investment in my opinion should be taxed just like the guy's pay check that works flipping burgers, the way I see it is the person had the choice of what to do with his money and decided to take the risk and was motivated by his confidence that his investment would be positive and in return create income, just like the small business owner he uses his earned money witch he worked for and payed taxes on to start his business and the profits created from this business is taxed equal to an employee (supposedly), I fell this is fair as this person made the decision to invest and knowingly assumes the risk and enjoy the profits from his decision minus tax, fair and square like the guy that chose to work for a pay check
I agree with vagas that the more you make should not subject you to unfair punishment of paying more (percentage wise) but paying equal would be fair as we all know there are enough loop holes to take advantage of, that by the time the tax is applied, 30% is usually on a watered down number any ways (but that is another story for a different thread).:biggrin:
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How can you- or anyone else for that matter- make that claim?
HALF the country PAYS ZERO FEDERAL INCOME TAX, Dave.
Don't get me wrong - the Tax code needs to be revamped...and heavily.
But with these facts- how can you make that claim?
That chart doesn't mean anything to me. I can show you many many to the contrary. This will go nowhere if we did that.
There's a fundamental difference in philosophy. IMO there are many better ways of putting into the economy than to give massive tax breaks to one type of income. I think the useful part of this talk has already passed frankly.
There's a fundamental difference in philosophy. IMO there are many better ways of putting into the economy than to give massive tax breaks to one type of income. I think the useful part of this talk has already passed frankly.
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Vegas your are wrong in your assumptions about me. I don't despise anyone, to me that is yet one more story. Just another way for the guy that earns a hundred million a year and pays 3% in taxes to belittle someone who works hard everyday and pays 30 (not talking about me). All I am saying is there should be fairness. We made laws and rules for this fairness but only a part of a populace follows them.
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I think all and any income should be taxed at the same rate. It doesn't matter if you made it flipping burgers or did it by putting money into a hedge fund.
So the money earned in stocks/bonds ect should be based on your overall ordinary income rate,unless it is in a 401k or similar vehicle?
Yes. Savings and retirement accounts deserve less tax but to me you shouldn't be getting a 50% break because 100% of your income comes from money made in various investments.... sometimes of a very dubious nature billed as "investment into the economy". This is all repeat now. As I said before, the guy that drives a bus puts just as much into the economy on a per dollar basis. I'm all for savings and retirement stuff, i'm not on board with special rates for hedge fund managers.
This times a billion. As someone in the military I have never paid less than 20% in taxes and one year with my bonus I paid 35%. This is just federal income tax. If people in the military who are willing to make the ultimate sacrifice (single with/o dependents) like me have to pay then everyone should on the income they earn, because I would have loved to pay 9% or less like some people.
Now I don't mind the higher rate since I grew up very very poor as a child and was a "victim" and "taker" back then but when those at the higher income scale who have been fortunate in life and don't need those breaks are paying at a much lower percentage rate it pisses me off.
I make far far far less then Buffet and pay 30% That is a problem.
What year was that? In 2011 the 35% bracket was only for single filers with an AGI of over $379k. Are you regular military or a defense contractor? My USMC Lt. Col. Brother in law never came anywhere near that zip code even with two tours in Afghanistan.
I love the military but have never seen those numbers.
A few years old, maybe it was just 30%. But it was pretty high because it was my regular pay plus a huge bonus to get out. Plus I didn't do any tours that year so I did not get that tax break.
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I pay a higher percentage also but far less in actual dollars. I can't complain when someone pays almost $7 million in federal taxes, especially whem he is not collecting benefits/services anywhere near what he pays in.
Actually he is. If America collapses or is conquered he stands to lose a lot more than others because he and his money (stuff) will be targeted.
A military bonus has 28% withheld for federal taxes but that is subject to end of tax year adjustments to reflect your actual tax bracket which probably brought your total fed rate to low 20s percent.
Yes, percentage wise you most likely had a higher federal tax liability on a percentage basis but you probably didn't have the deductions, charitable and otherwise, to reduce your percentage further.
Exactly.
Cptnsx how would you feel if the government decided to pay you the same or reduce current bonus pay to go into active combat duty? To take an extended risk, if you will..
But why should that soldier receive any more than those sitting at Pendleton or anywhere else? I'll answer that question for you... its because of the risk involved.
Their has to be an incentive for taking risk in anything and everything or else why do it.. But wouldn't the soldiers back home have a complaint over "fairness".. ??
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No I didn't it. I don't believe in charities since when and where I grew up the local ones hated biracial people like me and my sibling because of what we represented. I give directly to people if I feel moved by their plight or need. So no deductions there, which is fine. When I give it is to help anyway.
That is a recent thing -- at one time there was no bonus for combat pay. However the risk is your life not money and you can't deduct the loss of life on your taxes.
Plus just because you are not in combat does not mean your sacrifice is less great. I had an assignment where I would be gone 200 to 300 days a year. Now it was not in a combat zone, but I was never home. I was single so this was not a problem but some of the members of that squad had been divorced two or three times. No bonus for that.
Tax wise, the super rich can lower their brackets significantly through their charity work. The Gates Foundation has an endowment in the neighborhood of $35 billion or so and is required to donate at least 5% of it's funds every year so that is a donation of approximately $1.5 BILLION annually. None of us could spend that kind of money in our lifetimes but that type of net worth is so beyond the norm that it really isn't a fair comparison to look at our rates in comparison to the Buffets/Gates of the country.
..ok I get your ideology,but you are a smart small business owner.....so what would be your investment vehicle of choice,or RSO,or vegas or any one of the millions of middle-upper class investors in our markets today if your "reward" for taking risk in the markets is a tax rate of say 25-30% on whatever meager gains?There are hundreds of billions of dollars traded every day by all of "us" with the small extra incentive of a 15% tax rate on those earnings.
Buffett owes about $1 billion in back taxes spanning more than a decade too.
-J
-J
