BBSC New SS Box Thread

[kpond]

I'd like to propose that we use this thread to discuss the new SS box that MB has so graciously volunteered to supply to us - I'm sure at a cost to him and his business. Anyway, lest I forget, Mark, thanks for continuing to support your owners.

OK, with that, let me start with my experiences to date. My usual disclaimer: I AM NOT in any way affiliated with MB or Basch Acura. If there's something that I've said or done that encourages you to change or modify your BBSC set-up - you are on your own unless MB explicitly blesses it. My interest has and will continue to be to get the absolute most out of my BBSC - while being completely anal about monitoring and measuring a/f's and timing to insure engine longevity.

With that, let me jump in to my biggest pet peeve about the new box. Like the old box, the friggen' serial connector is still INSIDE the box. Now I know what MB is thinking. He wants to set up the boxes with the tables done by him for a given application and then he would like the majority of owners NOT to want or have to make any changes. This is a noble vision, but I just don't think we're there yet, even for the masses... and definitely this won't work for a tinkerer like me. Did I mention the replacement SS box is free of charge? You see, there I am already looking a gift horse in the mouth!!

MB would like you to mount the new box behind the trim panels in a small cavity adjacent to the ECU. Unlike the trunk location of the first unit, this location makes it even harder to get at, take apart, program, re-assemble, re-tuck in EACH time you want to make a change or monitor the output values. Sheesh! - there's no way I could install this “as-shipped” configuration.

If you popped open the box to see the serial connector, you probably noticed that SS has PC boards attached to each half and covered with a black epoxy to protect their intellectual capital. OK, so I bought a small male serial connector with soldering pins on the opposite side. This is the kind of connector you would use to make your own cable - but you don't need to buy the plastic connector halves that you typically mount it in. I also bought a 6' serial extension cable (Circuit City) and cut it so that I had the female end left and about 10" of cable. I then stripped the little wires and soldered them to the male connector. OK, so now I had everything hooked up but there's no way to put the two box halves back together. Grrrrrr. I then bought a length of 1" by 1/8" aluminum from Home Depot. I cut two small lengths the width of the SS box. I filed the corners round and then drilled 4 holes to match the holes in the SS box. I used these at each end of the SS box and bolted it back together. For the sides, I still had a 1" gap so I just used a 6" strip of duct tape along each side. No problem.

I had also asked MB to get me the factory ECU harness connectors which he did. I'm sure he can also sell to other BBSC owners that may want them at close to the price he had to pay. Since I was one of the early installs MB had pig-tailed in to my wiring harness. I spent a lot of time to "un-do" all of this and get my factory harness back to perfect and then I re-taped everything back up. Now my harness looks factory again. To integrate the new SS box, I had to build up the new ECU male/female harness connector using the instructions from Mark. This wasn't too bad, as I could do it out of the car on the bench. MB has used a consistent approach for the striped and solid pairs of each wire you interrupt so this made it easier.

To install the new SS box, I removed the harness stay and the throttle cable(?) stay both of which were just to the left of the ECU. With these stays out of the way, I was able to wiggle the newly enlarged SS box down into the cavity. Before you do this, make sure you have routed a vacuum line into the cabin. I was able to reconnect the aluminum stand-off that is used by one of the trim panels. I left the stays out of the car. I don't think I need them and they don't really fit anymore with the SS box all tucked in.

The real neat advantage is that everything is tucked away but I still have my serial cable dangling outside the trim panels (yet to be installed). Imagine my relief when I reconnected the battery and I was able to communicate with the SS box and load my table in!! Whew! If I had a problem with the box, I wouldn't have had a clue if it was the new box, my mods, the harness, the serial cable, or the "repairs" to the factory harness. Did I mention that you shouldn’t attempt any of this unless you have MB’s blessing? There are many more opportunities to screw things up than there is to improve on MB’s design. But, dad always said, “no guts, no glory!”

Anyway, I have yet to drive/tune it. I did fire it up and monitored it with the SS patched in to the PC.

I'm hooking up the wideband next (pretty much plug and play) and then I'll confirm the af's.

See what you made me write Andy? Now, assuming I haven’t put you to sleep, let me finally answer your question. According to MB (MB, please jump in and correct if I’ve got this wrong), the timing values for the new box are in increments of half of a degree. So, if you want to use your previous timing map, you need to first double all of the timing (Table B) values. I have left my Table A values the same as my old box.

I’ll shut-up now with one final cool gadget announcement. Here’s the latest from FJO.

I have gone through two $200+ Autometer fuel pressure gauges that have been faulty so I’ve got an empty slot in the a-pillar pod just waiting for this puppy. I pre-ordered today.

 

[sjs]

Very nicely done. Thank you for sharing.

 

[Yellow Rose]

See what you made me write Andy?



Wow, excellent text Kendall!!

Aren't there a couple of crank-angle sensors the SS needs to plug into? (Actually, aren't they cam-angle sensors and the value of crank-angle for timing is by inference?)

I think that some of the CELs have been caused by impedence(?)or capacitance(?) of the long cables from the trunk to the ECU. My SS is in the trunk and I have never gotten a CEL. Sooooo, does the replacement SS have to go in the cabin or can it stay in the trunk?

 

[kpond]

Aren't there a couple of crank-angle sensors the SS needs to plug into? (Actually, aren't they cam-angle sensors and the value of crank-angle for timing is by inference?)

Yes, the new box is able to control timing retard better by manipulating the values from additional sensors. There are two ways to "plug-in" the SS box. At first MB was splicing directly into the engine harness wires. He did a neat job of it, mind you, but I was never a fan of this approach. An improvement came along later when MB found a source for getting the male and female connectors for the factory ecu. These male and female connectors are connected together with 3" of wire, thus allowing you to make all of your SS connections within this new harness. You can do all of this on the bench, outside of the car. With this approach, the SS box becomes a plug-in, plug-out solution. Very nice. However, be prepared to compensate MB for this ECU connector. They are not inexpensive.

I think that some of the CELs have been caused by impedence(?)or capacitance(?) of the long cables from the trunk to the ECU. My SS is in the trunk and I have never gotten a CEL. Sooooo, does the replacement SS have to go in the cabin or can it stay in the trunk?

Yes, MB and SS have either suspected or confirmed that the longer wires leave room for interference which can disrupt what the SS box is trying to accomplish. In another post MB points out that some of the timing wires that the SS box taps into are shielded by the factory just a couple of inches away from the ECU. This fact would tend to support the theory that the factory was also concerned about potential interference.

Andy, like you, I was happy with the previous SS box. In my own testing, it also appeared that the timing control worked on my car even though it may not have worked on all installs. I decided to upgrade to the new SS box for two reasons;

First, there is no doubt that this upgrade is costing MB money and I figure he wouldn't be putting it out there for all of his existing owners on a lark. I really didn't want to be calling Mark someday with a problem and have him remind me that he advised that I go to the new box...

Second, the new box has an extra programatically controlled wire. You can see the parameters for this in your existing SS box software. This wire might have some interesting uses when connected to a relay. Perhaps you can trigger on an extra fuel pump, or maybe even signal a custom BOV... Hmmmmmm

 

[kpond]

All,

I spoke at length to the guys at SS today and unfortunately they have contradicted what I *thought* I heard from MB. According to SS, the timing tables (Table B) are virtually the same between the two boxes. In fact, the effect of the cell values in SS V2 is approx 10% more than that of SS V1. So, if you had a cell value of "3" in SS V1, that same "3" in SS V2 will act like a "3.3" (10% more).

My recommendation - assuming you had a correctly running SS V1, is to start with the identical values for Tables A and B in the SS V2 - AND TUNE FROM THERE.

 

[NSXTech]

BAD INFO

All,

I spoke at length to the guys at SS today and unfortunately they have contradicted what I *thought* I heard from MB. According to SS, the timing tables (Table B) are virtually the same between the two boxes. In fact, the effect of the cell values in SS V2 is approx 10% more than that of SS V1. So, if you had a cell value of "3" in SS V1, that same "3" in SS V2 will act like a "3.3" (10% more).

My recommendation - assuming you had a correctly running SS V1, is to start with the identical values for Tables A and B in the SS V2 - AND TUNE FROM THERE.

Kendall, First of all, I don't mean to sound nasty or mean with the subject line. I am gratefull that you have spent so much time analyzing this stuff for the benifits of the members. I ust can't imagine who you spoke to at SS, or if it was Mark, did you tell him you had an NSX box. Mark is the only EE there, he is the only circuit desihner and code writer. He is ABSOLUTELY aware that the values in the table need to be doubled to be correct. I can't imagine who you spoke to or why he would say that. I have messages in to him this morn for an explanation of this sudden change of info. I am stymied. Confused too!!!! <sg>

MB

 

[kpond]

MB,

Yes, I spoke directly to Mark. Yes, he knows that I was talking about the NSX. Yes, he is aware that I am in process to change from one box to the other. He was very nice, and very helpful. He seemed incredibly knowledgeable on the exact differences in the boxes.

Can you please speak to him and come back to all of us here watching this thread and advise on the correct method for the timing values?

By the way, I have been running my car and data logging a/f's. It would seem that with the same Table A and Table B values as the first box that I am "richer" by at least .5-1 across the board. I am letting the fuel trims settle in (normal driving) and see if it comes back. Otherwise, I will tune with the new box.

Please let us all know what you and SS decide.

 

[NSXTech]

MB,

Yes, I spoke directly to Mark. Yes, he knows that I was talking about the NSX. Yes, he is aware that I am in process to change from one box to the other. He was very nice, and very helpful. He seemed incredibly knowledgeable on the exact differences in the boxes.

Kendall, He better be, he designed and built them. (sg)
Anyhow, we talked yesterday and I *think* the misunderstanding may be as follows- Both Mark and I witnessed the faux pas with the new box that led to my " two=1 and 6=3, etc" post. The box was working so well at that point, other than this new programming 'glitch' that I decided to sign off on the overall improvements. I believe what Mark was saying was, that if you are happy with the map you have now, created on a dyno, etc, than use that, but enter it in the fashion I described.
Bottom line for me Kendall, would be that you should verify what timing you see on the crank pulley vs what is in the little boxes in the timing table. You might need to raise the car and put some nail polish or auto touch up paint on the crank pulley so you can see the marks. They were filed or cut in place but most recieved no paint
. Like a/f ratios, its always safe and certainly prudent to verify that your timing is where you think it is. Best way is with a timing light. If the service loop near the fuel rail won't fire your timing light, and if you have an inductive pick up, you can actually trigger the pick up in most cases by holding the pick up over the coil pack, often without even removing the coil cover. You can also wrap the inductive pic up around either of the two or three wires (depending on year) that is NOT the black/yellow. The factory timing mark has two little half size notches on either side of it. These are the +/- two degrees. The 14 degree mark is the full length one in the middle of these. The tdc mark is to the left of these three little marks.

Let me know if I confused you worse.
MB

 

[kpond]

MB,

I appreciate the need to tune individual cars - I have always done it for my own.

But, I have a simple question. Is the granularity of Table B in the new box 1/2 that of the old box? I asked Mark at SS this explicit question, and he said no, that they were virtually the same.

 

[Yellow Rose]

Could someone please fax me the wiring diagram for the upgraded SS box? 281-646-3016 This number will route the fax directly to my e-mail inbox.

Now admittedly I have studied the wires for the new box only briefly; however, at first glance it is not intuitively obvious to me where the extra wires go. One appears to be an auxiliary. The other is for crank angle sensing.....but how / where to connect?

To mere mortals that have performed the swap in your driveway, how long did it take you?

 

[chudson1549]

Will do it tonight. For my car two hours. The other one took three plus

 

[Yellow Rose]

For my car two hours. The other one took three plus.

Why the difference? Was one car the "trainer"?

Thanks in advance for the fax, Charles.

 

[Yellow Rose]

Points / Counter-Points

The vacuum / boost hose from line #4 (I think that is the correct identifier) needs to be rerouted. Instead of going to the trunk it is fed into the cabin.

From the new SS, need to run new wire(s) into the engine bay, so you can splice into wire(s) for the cam angle sensor(s).

What if one does not care if the SS-ECU interface is via a plug-n-play adapter harness or just that the SS’s wires are splicing into the factory harness, just outside of the ECU? Wouldn’t be simply a matter of swapping color-for-color the old and new wires of the SS where they splice into the factory harness? In fact, there may be a pretty easy way to do this. There are two sets of wires looms on the SS as they are routed from the trunk to the cabin. In close proximity to the RR shock tower, is a pair of multi-pin gray connectors. Cut the wires off near the old SS. From inside the car, pull both looms and connector through the firewall. Cut several feet of excess off of the wires. Strip the wires and color-for-color, attach to the new SS. Presto, you even don’t have to mess with the existing interface of where the SS wires currently splice into the factory harness. Is there something that I'm overlooking here?

I think some of the early versions of the SS sent errant signals to the ECU, which falsely opened the EGR at idle, that resulted in high CO levels during emissions testing. For such a test, can the SS be simply disconnected from the ECU, and the ECU doesn’t know any different? Particularly since the main function of the SS is to control fuel and timing under boost, not at idle.

Kendall.....I can understand not needing the two plastic halves of a serial connector on your home-made cable. But if you are employing this method, the cable within the SS box can be “folded” into a tight 90° turn as it comes off of the box’s serial connector. Having said that, why did you go through the effort of the 1” aluminum side straps? Why not just notch or drill a 1/4” hole in the SS box at the seam where the two halves join? This way you will retain the same overall dimension of the SS to more easily fit in the cavity next to the ECU, no?

Kendall.....you stated that timing values are double, then you said that SS said no, then MB said yes, then you asked for clarification. Have you had it confirmed if Table B for the new SS is 2x or 1x? I vaguely recall that MB told me it is 2x, but it has been so long that I can't exactly recall. He is out of town, so I don't want to pester him. I think our conversation went something like, "If a cell in Table B contains the value 4.3 with the old SS, that same cell's value is 8.6 with the new SS." If so, there is a nifty multiplication function you can do to the entire table, in one command.

Disclaimer - all of the above is predicated on (a) me not having seen a wiring diagram for the upgraded SS (b) me not looked at my SS in several months (c) me going off of memory with regards of how my car is currently wired (d) me not looking at R4 in several months.

 

[chudson1549]

fax sent.
My car had the standard connectors to it so I only had to connect three additional wires. The other car had the new new box which did not come with connectors. So as you stated, we had to pull the old wires into the cab and solder color to color plus add the three wires and find a way to run the vacuum line. Pretty simple just time.

 

[Jason Weaver]

What he said! Thanks again for the help bud. I am sending you an email right now about the other parts.

 

[kpond]

Kendall.....I can understand not needing the two plastic halves of a serial connector on your home-made cable. But if you are employing this method, the cable within the SS box can be “folded” into a tight 90° turn as it comes off of the box’s serial connector. Having said that, why did you go through the effort of the 1” aluminum side straps? Why not just notch or drill a 1/4” hole in the SS box at the seam where the two halves join? This way you will retain the same overall dimension of the SS to more easily fit in the cavity next to the ECU, no?

A cable cannot be folded into a tight 90 and even come close to fitting. Have you looked? The top half of the box almost touches the connector "as is" so you have no hope to fit a cable in there.

Kendall.....you stated that timing values are double, then you said that SS said no, then MB said yes, then you asked for clarification. Have you had it confirmed if Table B for the new SS is 2x or 1x? I vaguely recall that MB told me it is 2x, but it has been so long that I can't exactly recall. He is out of town, so I don't want to pester him. I think our conversation went something like, "If a cell in Table B contains the value 4.3 with the old SS, that same cell's value is 8.6 with the new SS." If so, there is a nifty multiplication function you can do to the entire table, in one command.

I spent more than 1 hour with Mark of SS at SEMA. I confirm that according to Mark, there is "no difference" in the way the old and new box interpret and apply the timing values from the internal table. MB and I agree to disagree and the difference between him and I is that if you blow up your engine listening to me, I won't help you fix it. <g>

 

[chudson1549]

What he said! Thanks again for the help bud. I am sending you an email right now about the other parts.

No Problem Jason anytime and thank you for the part list

 

[Yellow Rose]

A cable cannot be folded into a tight 90 and even come close to fitting. Have you looked? The top half of the box almost touches the connector "as is" so you have no hope to fit a cable in there.

Perhaps I should've added a fifth disclaimer at the end of my post that reads, "(e) at the time of this writing, I have not yet opened the new SS."

However, afterwards I did. Kendall, we must have different box configurations, because the top of my serial connector is nowhere close to the top of the box. In fact, it is 1/32" below the centerline seam where the top and bottom meet. If a serial connector can be found that is already configured to be angled at 90° in the first place, the cable will come straight out the side of the box.

I spent more than 1 hour with Mark of SS at SEMA. I confirm that according to Mark, there is "no difference" in the way the old and new box interpret and apply the timing values from the internal table.

Okay, then let me ask you my question in a different manner. Are your current Table B values with the new SS 1x or 2x of the old values?

For the matter of record, I will verify Table B with a $30 timing light at idle in my driveway. I will then take up my friend's offer to borrow his Honda dealership's $2000 scanner to verify timing under load (boost) over a range of RPMs.

MB - I have heard a rule of thumb that a forced induction NSX engine behaves well by retarding the timing 6° per 1000 RPM beginning at 5000 RPM. Using this math we have as timing retard:

5000 RPM - 6°
6000 RPM - 12°
7000 RPM - 18°
8000 RPM - 24°

The above timing values sound a little low to me. Perhaps what that rule of thumb means is additional timing retard that is taken away from initial timing.

MB - regardless of the values in Table B, what is the total (initial + additional) timing retard I should be looking for with the Honda scanner?

 

[kpond]

Andy,

Look at your ss box closely. Yes, the serial connector is a fraction below the centerline. However, look at the "lid" and notice there is an additional pcb there (covered in black epoxy). When you put the two halves together, the wires going to the lid are almost in contact with the serial connector. Regardless, this is how my box is configured. If you have the ability to do something different, go for it.

I think your stated rule of thumb for timing retard is WAY off.

YMMV, but typically you pull out 1degree for every pound of boost. 6psi = 6 degrees of retard at max pressure.

 

[BryanZublin]

Re: Points / Counter-Points

Originally posted by AndyVecsey (snip)I think some of the early versions of the SS sent errant signals to the ECU, which falsely opened the EGR at idle, that resulted in high CO levels during emissions testing. For such a test, can the SS be simply disconnected from the ECU, and the ECU doesn’t know any different? Particularly since the main function of the SS is to control fuel and timing under boost, not at idle.(snip)

I am willing to bet that the new SS box works the same as the old SS box in regards to how it handles the MAP input to the stock ECU. So any issues with incorrect EGR operation at idle are most likely still present in the new box. The "errant signals" that have been mentioned in the past apparently only affected the timing.

Anyway, to answer your question, disconnecting the SS box and using the stock ECU with the non-stock fuel injectors (550 cc/min) will probably result in an engine that does not run. The stock ECU's ability to adjust AFR in closed loop mode is limited, it can't be expected to compensate for injectors that flow 50% (or more) higher than stock.

 

[Yellow Rose]

Regardless, this is how my box is configured. If you have the ability to do something different, go for it.

I found a source for a 90° D-Sub connector. I also found a MxF serial cable that is made of ribbon cable instead of round cable. I think one or the other of these may work out fine.

I think your stated rule of thumb for timing retard is WAY off. YMMV, but typically you pull out 1° for every pound of boost. 6 PSI = 6° of retard at max pressure.

So if the engine timing is 15° at idle, the total timing retard with your example would be 21° at redline? Am I understanding the math correctly?

 

[Yellow Rose]

I am willing to bet that the new SS box works the same as the old SS box in regards to how it handles the MAP input to the stock ECU. So any issues with incorrect EGR operation at idle are most likely still present in the new box. The "errant signals" that have been mentioned in the past apparently only affected the timing.

Perhaps, you might have words of wisdom to my thread in the technical category titled "Bad Cats ??" that I posted this morning. I'm confused as to why it appears that the EGR valve is acting up. With no changes that I have made to the timing map.

Anyway, to answer your question, disconnecting the SS box and using the stock ECU with the non-stock fuel injectors (550 cc/min) will probably result in an engine that does not run. The stock ECU's ability to adjust AFR in closed loop mode is limited, it can't be expected to compensate for injectors that flow 50% (or more) higher than stock.

Sheesh, now why couldn't I have rationalized it this way? Thanks!

 

[Yellow Rose]

Last year my car passed emission inspection, with cats on, of course. I took the cats off and shelved them in the garage. This year, with the cats on, the car failed emission inspection.

Configuration - same SS box, with fuel map values and timing map values to the left of 0 PSI, identical to when I first got the car. No CEL to indicate that an emission device is defective. No known ECU codes. Air temps about the same - mid 60s - and gasoline the same - 87 octane.

So if nothing electronically changed and there is no indication of mechanical component failure, how can the numbers be so far off?

Last Year / This Year / Max Limit

HC - 123 PPM / 501 PPM / 124 PPM
CO - 0.33% / 0.86 % / 0.69%
NOX - 546 PPM / 1293 PPM / 937 PPM

 

[BryanZublin]

Originally posted by AndyVecsey So if the engine timing is 15° at idle, the total timing retard with your example would be 21° at redline? Am I understanding the math correctly?

15 deg at idle is 15 deg before top dead center (BTDC) or 15 deg of timing advance. All cars fire before top dead center (ie. all have advance timing) except for rare occasions like engine cranking (starting). Top dead center is when the piston is at the top of the compression stroke.

Stock timing on a stock NA NSX at engine speeds other than idle is unknown to us all (unless someone has measured it and published it). For this example, let's assume stock NA NSX timing at 8000 RPM and WOT is 25 deg BTDC. So with the boosted NSX, assuming that you are generating 6 psi of boost and your timing computer is set up to provide 1 deg timing retard/psi, then the net timing will be 25 deg - 6 deg = 19 deg BTDC.

 

[Gerry Johnson]

The stock NSX has the max advance at around 40 degrees at redline.