Autocross capability of NSX?

[tom4416]

There's a thread going on in the owners area about somebody racing a Mustang GT and someone popped a response that said don't auto-x him, he'll win. Now, I've never auto-x'd the NSX (and likely never will) but have a fair amount of seat time in an e-stock Miata (93LE w/factory Bilsteins, recalibrated sways and springs) and am a couple of ticks faster than any solid axle Mustang out there. Is the NSX really that bad at autocross? If so, why? I've only got two weeks experience with mine but have attacked some known corners and sweepers that are calibrated with the Miata and the NSX just blows through them at nowhere near its limits so can't for the life of me figure why a well balanced, light, properly sprung mid-engine car wouldn't just tear up an old school suspension on a Mustang. Hope someone can enlighten me if that's an accurate comment or someone was just blowing smoke. I know I've seen a couple of NSX at the track over the years and they never looked like they were struggling to me but never really paid attention to the clock for them.

 

[nsxtasy]

I don't think the Mustang will necessarily win - and besides, the biggest difference between two cars in an autocross is likely to be the nut behind the wheel. :wink:

However, there is one way in which the Mustang does better at autocross, and that's the torque curve and gearing. The Mustang makes its torque down low in the RPM band, whereas the NSX has a very flat torque curve. On the NSX, VTEC extends that torque curve up high in the revs, which is why the NSX has a gearing advantage over the Mustang - once you get up over 25-30 mph, when the Mustang will be required to upshift. It's the 0-20 or 0-30 part of autocross where the NSX does not do as well (and, if the course enables you to go over 45 mph and you have a stock five-speed, the NSX won't accelerate well in the 45-60 range, either).

Bottom line, the Mustang is set up to accelerate quickly off the line, the NSX accelerates quickly at speeds over 30 mph. As a general rule, if you put the two cars on a road course, an NSX will typically do much better than a Mustang. But that's not necessarily so in an autocross.

It's also worth pointing out that there are lots of different Mustang models over the years, even those designated as the GT, with varying amounts of horsepower. And the Mustang is fairly easy to modify for higher horsepower at a relatively low cost.

I suggest you take you car out to some autocrosses and try it out. Why not?

 

[docjohn]

A stock nsx is an undeerstearing long wheelbase mess,and the cars in the scca class competing with it are just quicker all things considered,and allowing the "improvements" in each class.Here is an old thread http://www.nsxprime.com/forums/showthread.php?t=18605&highlight=auto-x+results which still applies.I used to auto x my nsx alot then got more serious once I bought a s2000,with the honda I was able to get some ftd in my region.

 

[BATMANs]

Yes.

Understeering and long wheel base is against the NSX for this event.

I rather take the FD.....

 

[stuntman]

Long gears, lack of torque (especially at low rpm), narrow front tires all are contributing factors. Mustangs are able to stuff huge tires up front and tires mean everything for autox or track.

Their are a lot of fast track mustangs out there, and they can be very capable cars even despite their rear axle. Again for the track, they can fit huge tires under them which helps a lot.

If you put 235s up front it will greatly improve the front grip of your car which is crucial especially for autoX.

But I'm not the biggest fan of cone-dodging...

 

[Ski_Banker]

I don't think the Mustang will necessarily win - and besides, the biggest difference between two cars in an autocross is likely to be the nut behind the wheel. :wink:

However, there is one way in which the Mustang does better at autocross, and that's the torque curve and gearing. The Mustang makes its torque down low in the RPM band, whereas the NSX has a very flat torque curve. On the NSX, VTEC extends that torque curve up high in the revs, which is why the NSX has a gearing advantage over the Mustang - once you get up over 25-30 mph, when the Mustang will be required to upshift. It's the 0-20 or 0-30 part of autocross where the NSX does not do as well (and, if the course enables you to go over 45 mph and you have a stock five-speed, the NSX won't accelerate well in the 45-60 range, either).

Bottom line, the Mustang is set up to accelerate quickly off the line, the NSX accelerates quickly at speeds over 30 mph. As a general rule, if you put the two cars on a road course, an NSX will typically do much better than a Mustang. But that's not necessarily so in an autocross.

It's also worth pointing out that there are lots of different Mustang models over the years, even those designated as the GT, with varying amounts of horsepower. And the Mustang is fairly easy to modify for higher horsepower at a relatively low cost.

I suggest you take you car out to some autocrosses and try it out. Why not?

Ken - back in 91 did you think you would ever write a post like this??? Be honest. :smile::tongue:

 

[johnnymo]

Ken - back in 91 did you think you would ever write a post like this??? Be honest. :smile::tongue:

Yah, but the 91 mustang sucked goat nads. Nowadays, with the horsepower craze out there, a few more cars give me trouble on the track compared to just the Vipers, 355s, ZR1s, and 991Ts of yesteryear.

But not many.

Cheers,
John

 

[NSXDreamer2]

i agreed the long wheelbase and gearing hurts the nsx the most at the real tight stuff. combined with the rather heavy and slow steering rack, not sure how it does with 235 @ autoX. I can definately feel that at my first HPDE of the season, my hands got sored. The nsx manual rack is quite heavy on tight corners. (and I drive cars for living and daily commute my manual steering miata . :wink

to guys who had driven/race Miata: since I have more seat time in the miata, and driving the 1.6 in daily commute is quite entertaining and challenging (which is good.). The miata did amazing things as if you sometime going into a corner too hot, the inevitable understeering occur, most of the time, you could just steer more and it seems like the front tire will just scrub off enough speed to regain the "bite" into the corner. I had chatted with diff. miata's owner, and it seems even NC had th same trait.
Somehow, not many other cars have that trait at all, and nsx is way worse, even when I had the oversteering TeinRA setup, once you get into understeer, steering input won't help(except unwinding the wheel)

oh Billy, remember when you first joined nsxprime, you told me to track my miata to be better driver? I wasn't listening to you back then, but after driving my miata everyday all year long, I do find out myself driving better in the nsx, and even though I still haven't tracked my miata yet, I tend to agree your statement.

 

[pach]

FYI on a smooth course, having a car with a solid axle really doesnt slow it down at all.

I'm the one that mentioned the Mustang autocross comment in the other thread, I was talking about the newer 2005+ ones, specifically the Shelby GT (not the supercharged one) which is the front runner in the FS class.

Tire size helps quite a bit on autocrossing and you can fit 315's on the front of Mustangs, heck you can fit 285's on S2000's (both with aftermarket wheels of course).

 

[JohnJW]

NSX= Astock catagory. There are so many "other" competitive cars in Astock right now its crazy. There is no way a NSX would be competitve on a National level up against S2000's, Solstice's, and Sky's even C4 corvette's fit into Astock.

Also SCCA stock classes are not won with "stock" cars, for example you can run the widest tire you can fit on a stock sized wheel even in a "R" compound, and you can run externaled resevoir 4way adjustable shocks as well. Not hardly stock, but the point I'm trying to make is that these mods turn a Solstice or S2K into a bigtime NSX beater. Sorry

Mustang=Fstock catagory...same rules apply here. So for whatever reason comparing a Mustang and NSX is deff apples and oranges:wink:

Mustang GT500=Astock somehow. the car does not turn, so I would'nt worry.

Oh and my disclamer. I'm not at all fluent with the current SCCA solo rulebook nor would I want to be

 

[stuntman]

i agreed the long wheelbase and gearing hurts the nsx the most at the real tight stuff. combined with the rather heavy and slow steering rack, not sure how it does with 235 @ autoX. I can definately feel that at my first HPDE of the season, my hands got sored. The nsx manual rack is quite heavy on tight corners. (and I drive cars for living and daily commute my manual steering miata . :wink

to guys who had driven/race Miata: since I have more seat time in the miata, and driving the 1.6 in daily commute is quite entertaining and challenging (which is good.). The miata did amazing things as if you sometime going into a corner too hot, the inevitable understeering occur, most of the time, you could just steer more and it seems like the front tire will just scrub off enough speed to regain the "bite" into the corner. I had chatted with diff. miata's owner, and it seems even NC had th same trait.
Somehow, not many other cars have that trait at all, and nsx is way worse, even when I had the oversteering TeinRA setup, once you get into understeer, steering input won't help(except unwinding the wheel)

oh Billy, remember when you first joined nsxprime, you told me to track my miata to be better driver? I wasn't listening to you back then, but after driving my miata everyday all year long, I do find out myself driving better in the nsx, and even though I still haven't tracked my miata yet, I tend to agree your statement.

:biggrin:

I still recommend taking your miata out to the track atleast once. If you find yourself driving that much better in the NSX from your experience on the street with the miata, it will be tenfold once you take the miata on the track. Also 235s up front definitely improve front-end and overall grip on the track and i'm sure autoX as well. If you track your car or drive it aggressively and are battling too much understeer, I would consider switching to 235/40-17s up front -its the best aggressive option that ive driven on for the NSX.

FYI on a smooth course, having a car with a solid axle really doesnt slow it down at all.

I'm the one that mentioned the Mustang autocross comment in the other thread, I was talking about the newer 2005+ ones, specifically the Shelby GT (not the supercharged one) which is the front runner in the FS class.

Tire size helps quite a bit on autocrossing and you can fit 315's on the front of Mustangs, heck you can fit 285's on S2000's (both with aftermarket wheels of course).

Mustangs are kicking some M3 and Porsche 911 butt in Grand Am Koni Challenge, even on bumpy tracks... :wink: