At Mosport yesterday

[BioBanker]

It was my first time with the NSX on any track. What a wonderful car.

My comfort with it is increasing quickly (believe it or not I am far more comfortable in the harder to drive S2000), probably entirely due to familiarity. Ive cured the understeer and leaning that I hated so much with TODA coilovers. Ive also got RA1s on the car.

Pics at: http://s2ki.iroque.com/BioBanker/Mosport/

Here is a sample.

 

[MiamieNeSeX]

Interesting that you run without helmets.


Armando

 

[BioBanker]

Yes it was. This group largely didnt use them.

I did bring mine, but because this was my first time at this track, I decided to run with an instructor each session. It was more important for me to learn the lines of this very technical track (and to learn how the NSX drives on the track) than to rip off fast lap times. So I took it easy all day and not having a helmet enabled instructor feedback better.

When I go next time I will be wearing my helmet.

Even though less then 10% wore helmets, I think it was a mistake to not wear mine during the latter sessions when I knew the lines.

 

[Arshad]

Wow, that's weird without helmets. I'm surprised that Mosport would allow anyone on without helmets unless it was a parade lap? WRT communication between the instructor and driver, when Peter Mills took me for a spin at Mosport, he used a two-way headset which fit under both of our helmets. It was perfectly clear, and I'm surprised that more of these HPDE's don't provide them to all instructor's.

BTW: Excellent shots! Was it your S2k friend taking them?

 

[BioBanker]

Yep - the no helmet thing was weird. What is surprising to me is that there were tons of REALLY fast guys there, and the instuctors were hard core, and none of them considered it an issue.

They had 3 photographers around the track taking shots. I came home with 200 pics. Many of them seemed like the same pic, but were done on different laps, and of course they have motor drives that take 8 pics per second.

We got in over 200km of track driving during the day.

I went through an ENTIRE tank of gas, I actually had to cut the last session short for fuel concerns.

 

[OLDE GUY]

There is a Porsche Region in Texas which does not use helmets for the first 20 minute session with newbies but the speed limit is 60 MPH. Their rationale is that the absence of helmets takes away the Darth Vader mysterious effect and enables better communication for track orientation, pointing out corner worker stations, track run-off areas and such. Some DE groups instruct the students to drive down the center of the track for the first few laps while this discussion is going on. Then they get to instructing "the line". Helmets with "communicators" for all subsequent sessions.

With regard to MoSport, my guess is that the Insurance Company requirements are less restrictive in Canada. A track/sponsering club probably couldn't get insurance of any kind in the US if they were running "at speed" without helmets.

As a retired physician, I can tell you that it doesn't take much head trauma to develope cognitive dysfunction: problems with math, memory loss, etc. You certainly don't need to have damage which is visible on a CAT or MRI scan to have significant cognitive problems. Everyone needs to take personal responsibility for their safety on a race track regardless of what "the crowd" is doing. Wear a helmet when you are performance driving!

 

[NSXLuvr]

Great pics. Congrats. Did you feel more comfortable in the NSX by the end of the wknd or do you still prefer the S2k?

 

[BioBanker]

To be clear, I wouldnt have sold my S2000 for the NSX if I preferred the S2000. I MUCH prefer the NSX, but because of familiarity, I have been more comfortable in the S2000 so far. By the time I sold it, I just felt that I knew exactly what it was about to do; it talked to me.

Yes, by the end of the day I was feeling much more at home. Now that I look back, I did a few things in the NSX that the S2000 may not have tollerated, but the NSX took in stride and just dug in and said, okay, Ill go there. And go it did. Its been smiles ever since.

I found that the coilovers made a big difference right away. Even never having driven the NSX on the track, I could tell what it was going to handle like; a little lean and a bunch of push. Putting the TODA coilovers in did wonders right out of the box, and I havent even adjusted them yet. Nor have I touched tire pressures (ran at 40 f/r semihot) of the R compounds. I can bleed them a bit to further improve the response and grip.

Its all good.

What a car.

 

[Peter Mills]

What driving organization doesn't use helmets? What was this group's name?
Please don't go on the track without a helmet again..ever! Touring laps with a speed limit of 60mph if fine. Driver's School... NEVER. You have too much to lose.

Yep - the no helmet thing was weird. What is surprising to me is that there were tons of REALLY fast guys there, and the instuctors were hard core, and none of them considered it an issue.

They had 3 photographers around the track taking shots. I came home with 200 pics. Many of them seemed like the same pic, but were done on different laps, and of course they have motor drives that take 8 pics per second.

We got in over 200km of track driving during the day.

I went through an ENTIRE tank of gas, I actually had to cut the last session short for fuel concerns.

 

[2slow2speed]

I found that the coilovers made a big difference right away. Even never having driven the NSX on the track, I could tell what it was going to handle like; a little lean and a bunch of push. Putting the TODA coilovers in did wonders right out of the box, and I havent even adjusted them yet. Nor have I touched tire pressures (ran at 40 f/r semihot) of the R compounds. I can bleed them a bit to further improve the response and grip.

Its all good.

What a car.

Dude,

You started driving at the track for the first time on your NSX with R-compound tires? That makes absolutely no sense (besides the obvious of driving at the track without a helmet big gigantic no-no in any book)

You will be way faster if you learn to drive the NSX with street tires and understand the real handling dynamics of the car, way too many folks jump into R-compounds without learning to maximize the potential with street tires. When the R-compounds let go, they will let go at a much higher speed/cornering forces than with street tires. The R-compounds also mask way too much as well.

It's pretty amusing when I see folks moving from R-compounds back to street tires and see them struggle because they have developed bad habits driving R-compounds, and they wonder why they are *substantially* slower with street tires

Anyways, just my 2 cents..

PS: 40psi is on the high end for almost all R-compounds on the market, and I've never heard of anyone running the same pressures front and rear on the NSX.

 

[BioBanker]

I agree re the helmets, I wont do it again. But it was strange when I grabbed my helmet, and the instructor said that I didnt need it. None of them had any (12 instructors) and we arnt talking about fly by night instructors either. Formula Atlantic drivers. Class winners of 24hr of Daytona. F2000 drivers. It goes on. These guys were all hard-core, and sat in the passenger seats of drivers who they'd never seen before. It was a very well controlled event. Everyone there was older and I didnt witness even an ounce of testosterone driven stupidity. That said, I should have worn the helmet. I supose mechanical issues cause as many injuries as drivers do. Enough said about the helmet.

2slow2speed, if I didnt run R compounds daily, Id agree with you about swapping back and forth. RA1s are my daily driving rubber. Ive had great success using them daily in the past on my previous cars as its been too inconvenient to swap back and forth between solo IIs, and I thought that I would give them a try again. My daily communte is only 3 miles . So, if I do 5 track events per year, Im actually driving more getting to and from the track than Ill drive combined anytime else, and if I get 200km of track distance like I did yesterday, that will be as much on the track as I would have during my daily commute for the entire summer. So Im giving them a try again and so far Im very happy with the choice.

I know re the psi, but it was working really well and I didnt want to get picky. My stagger is a little more than Id like (205/275) so I wanted the rears a little fuller. Ill play around with pressures later, but the car felt good; it would likely feel better with adjustments.

 

[2slow2speed]

2slow2speed, if I didnt run R compounds daily, Id agree with you about swapping back and forth. RA1s are my daily driving rubber. Ive had great success using them daily in the past on my previous cars as its been too inconvenient to swap back and forth between solo IIs, and I thought that I would give them a try again. My daily communte is only 3 miles . So, if I do 5 track events per year, Im actually driving more getting to and from the track than Ill drive combined anytime else, and if I get 200km of track distance like I did yesterday, that will be as much on the track as I would have during my daily commute for the entire summer. So Im giving them a try again and so far Im very happy with the choice.

I know re the psi, but it was working really well and I didnt want to get picky. My stagger is a little more than Id like (205/275) so I wanted the rears a little fuller. Ill play around with pressures later, but the car felt good; it would likely feel better with adjustments.

I think that you are missing the entire point of what I am saying, regardless or not if the RA1's are your daily rubber you go to the track for perhaps one of 2 reasons:

1 - To learn to drive fast in a safe environment
2 - To learn how the NSX handles at the limit

In order to achieve #2 you are better off driving at the track with *street* tires first, the limits are much lower, as such you will be able to get the car to slide around at much lower speed and know what to do in those situations vs getting the car to break loose with RA1's which requires a lot more speed or some other road surfaces in order to achieve the same result.

I also run with 205 on the front and 275's RA1's on the rear of my NSX and the only way that I can break the car loose on the rear is when I'm taking a sweeper that is off-camber and I'm on the gas close to WOT.

Not sure about the tracks up in Canada so I'm not sure if you had portions of the track that allows you to reach the limits of the R compound tires at relatively low speeds that will allow you to *catch* the car if it starts ovesteering on you.

For example: Turn 3 at Thunderhill is a sweeper that is off-camber, good place to play around with the car.

Both the black NSX and the red NSX drivers are *instructor* level drivers. The Red NSX driver went from R-compounds back to some Michelin Pilot Sports because he was challenged by the owner of the black NSX, sadly he was not able to catch the car before it oversteered in the particular instance that is shown in the picture. (In other words he's not used to driving a car that is loose, or feels loose)

Anyways, there is a reason why *all* racing schools that I am aware of that use street cars to teach use street tires to teach their students to drive at the track.

Maybe you are not aware of this but to recover from a loose R-compund tire requires hell of a lot more effort/skill than to recover from a loose street tire, because when a R compound let's go, it really let's go.

Again, I'm just mentioning all of this for *your* benefit as a driver who is new to the NSX.

Just my 2 cents.

Ken

 

[2slow2speed]

I know re the psi, but it was working really well and I didnt want to get picky. My stagger is a little more than Id like (205/275) so I wanted the rears a little fuller. Ill play around with pressures later, but the car felt good; it would likely feel better with adjustments.

FYI,

Given that you are running a much narrower tire up front, you want to *reduce* the pressure on the front tire so that the tire has a larger contact patch area, in other words more grip, less understeer.

You would increase the pressure on the rears to induce a bit more oversteer make the car a bit more tail happy. (All of this will vary between the beginning of a session and the end of the session, but for th most part the advice is correct)

BTW: You know that the stock tire pressures are about 32/38 or something along those lines. So 40/40 will increase the understeer on a NSX with a stock suspension and sway bars, I have no clue on the Toda's given that I don't know either the spring rates or wether or not you changed sway bars along the way too.

On my NSX with Type-R suspension 10kg/8kg spring rates and Dali Sway street/race sway bars full stiff up front and one from softest in the rear the car handles the best with tire pressures in the 36/38 or 38/40 for the 205/275 RA1 combo (depends on the track temp) Maybe the info is useful, maybe not.

Ken

 

[BioBanker]

Thank you for taking all that time Ken. I get you re the RA1s now, thanks for explaining that. I can see that getting to the limit of the car is an education in itself, and to get that at a slower speed is probably a better idea than at a faster speed. I hadnt thought of that but it does make perfect sense. Its probably why I have had more fun driving F2000 cars in the wet than in the dry. Like WAY more fun. The whole world still comes down to those four pieces of rubber, but their tollerances are dramatically reduced. Im a novice driver compared to the really fast guys on pretty much any track, and Ive got way more to learn on a track than I know, but during the day I never felt the tires approaching the limit of what the car would do. At times I found that what I wanted the car to do was at its limit (when I messed up some corners and found myself running out of road), but the tires hung in without complaint. Ive approached, and exceeded, the limits of R compounds Ive owned previously and never want to do it again! But dont forget that a few cars are coming stock with them now, the Elise and the STi for example.

You can see laps of Mosport here: http://www.pcaucr.org/pcaucr/videos/Mosport.wmv

Some say that corner 2 is the most difficult corner in NA and top 10 in the world. Its a blind, usually double apex (but can be turned into a single apex if youve got nuts) fall away downhill. YIKES!

That is very helpful re the tire pressures. The TODA suspension is 12kg/10kg, so its similar in distribtion to yours, but slightly stiffer (I wouldnt want it any stiffer for the street!). So far they are working very well for me. Info is found here : http://www.todaracing.com/products/honda_nsx/fightex_coilovers.html

Theyre aluminum and fully adjustable, and are infact the only inverted coilover for the NSX.

Suspension wise Im stock everywhere else, but I do have an RM racing rear bar that Ive yet to put in.

Dave

 

[OLDE GUY]

For example: Turn 3 at Thunderhill is a sweeper that is off-camber, good place to play around with the car.

Ken - Interesting photos. I haven't driven out West. How fast is Turn 3? Where is the apex - further left in the pic ahead of the NSXs? Or do you not apex near the inside curb - sort of make a "rim shot" ?

 

[2slow2speed]

Ken - Interesting photos. I haven't driven out West. How fast is Turn 3? Where is the apex - further left in the pic ahead of the NSXs? Or do you not apex near the inside curb - sort of make a "rim shot" ?

Hi Bill,

The apex for Turn 3 is further to the left from where the black NSX was in the pictures.

You can check the following video:

http://www.jeepvideos.com/mpeg/041127th-rx7spin.mpg

That's my friend Dennis on his gutted 928 chasing Kip and his CTSC NSX running Yoko slicks, you can see the hand gesture in the video. Kip was flying that day doing sub 2:00 at Thunderhill

More info about that particular track day can be found here:

http://www.lasttenth.com/index.php?m=200411

Ken

 

[2slow2speed]

You can see laps of Mosport here: http://www.pcaucr.org/pcaucr/videos/Mosport.wmv

Some say that corner 2 is the most difficult corner in NA and top 10 in the world. Its a blind, usually double apex (but can be turned into a single apex if youve got nuts) fall away downhill. YIKES!

Hi Dave,

Thanks for the link. Now you've got me spoiled , one more track to add to the must hit tracks in NA .

I've seen some footage of Mosports a while back during World Challenge but had completely forgotten about it, hehe.

From the video it looks like the trickiest/scariest corner seems to be turn 5a and 5b (Moss Corner) because you are slowing down a lot but want to make sure that your exit speed through turn 5c is as high as possible given that it leads to the longest straight of the course.

At least for me turn 2 seems to be one of those turns that once you figure it out you can probably take pretty fast by faith (given that you don't lift after the crest to keep the rear end tucked and possibly by running a Big A$$ wing if you want to cheat a bit )

BTW: As you hit more tracks, you will be able to break down most turns into sections and you will be able to figure out the line by feeling the natural tendencies of the car through the sections of the turn.

Ken

PS: You might want to keep the rear bar stock and go with a stiffer bar up front instead of the other way around. The NSX is prone to snap oversteer and having a stiff rear bar can make it more noticeable.

 

[2slow2speed]

Ken - Interesting photos. I haven't driven out West. How fast is Turn 3? Where is the apex - further left in the pic ahead of the NSXs? Or do you not apex near the inside curb - sort of make a "rim shot" ?

Bill,

Oops, forgot to include the speed through turn 3, the turn can be taken at about 60-65mph with street tires and probably closer to 65-70mph with some good R-compounds, as seen in the video Kip just flies by the outside of the S2000 (Richard Lafaitt: OTC guy) who was running some RA1's that day, so you will have to wait until we hear from him to find out at what speed he usually takes that turn

Ken

 

[BioBanker]

Ken - actually the 5 sequence, a b and c, is trickier than it is scarey. Coming into 5a, I would shift to 3rd. Down to 2nd for 5b and back to third somewhere around/just after c. It was fun for me because you approach the turn cone and almost kiss it with the driver side bumper, crank the wheel, mash the gas which causes you to understeer JUST enough to clear to inner strip on the passenger side. Because it is so slow and really just a matter of approaching the outmost part of the track, I found it relatively simple once I figured out I had to kiss the cone.

Two, on the other hand, GOOD GOD. Its blind. Totally blind and it is an offcamber, probably 10% downhill. Gave me the willies each time. Four also scared the hell out of me each time. I had a tendency to turn in too early in 4, which caused me to run out of road a couple times (although Ive now seen video of a prepped vette pulling that manouver off with ease). Approaching 8, with that crest between you and the corner, was scarey at 8k RPM in 4th too.

I left that day with the giggles.

 

[docjohn]

Holy Bizzaro world Batman!I agree with the other comments,no helmets should = "parade" laps.If you had instructers and racers running hot laps sans brain buckets then wow God bless every other country and thier less litiginous legal systems.

 

[NSXDreamer2]

God bless every other country and thier less litiginous legal systems.

word..... and my local track won't let anyone time or even carry passenger anymore.

Ken! so you are going to Toronto soon?? Can't wait for your "detail report" :biggrin:

 

[BioBanker]

Ya'all are welcome to come to Canada anytime. I suggest you do not plan a visit between November and March though, there's not enough room in the NSX trunk for all the long underwear.

 

[OLDE GUY]

Dave - By the way, you have a beautiful NSX. Bill

 

[kenjiMR]

this thread... *shaking my head in disbelief*

retarded "instructors"... I definitely agree, no R compound for first track event.... especially not in an NSX.

 

[2slow2speed]

word..... and my local track won't let anyone time or even carry passenger anymore.

Ken! so you are going to Toronto soon?? Can't wait for your "detail report" :biggrin:

Ferrand,

Yikes! no passengers? what happened with the passenger policy, did someone have a bad off recently at Pacific Raceways? I can understand the timing issue for most HPDE's, but don't understand the passenger policy

Ken

P.S. There are lot's of tracks that I want to hit, so I just keep adding them to my list , if I had known about the track days at Barber Motorsports earlier I would have probably shipped my NSX to play with the Southeast NSX folks a couple of weekends ago