Anyone Into DIY Home Speakers?

[Mac Attack]

I'm no audiophile, but I enjoy nice clean sound.

My music/theater setup is Vandersteen 3a fronts and his center channel. I have a newer Yamaha sound processor/amp, and I have the virtual presence speakers enabled with bookshelf speakers mounted about 6' up mostly to "lift" the center channel sounds higher into my 110" screen. I also happen to like the virtual presence speakers when listening to music in the simulated 7 channel sound mode.

Anyways, I've been missing proper rear channels in our new home the past few years. 90% of the time this setup is used for movies. Not the best use for the directional Vandersteens, but oh well. I like designing things and learning new stuff, so I'm thinking about buying a few Tang Band W8's and using them as full-range speakers with an open baffle for my rear channels. I can place them about a foot from my rear wall, and only have about five feet between those and the primary listeners ears. The open baffle design sounds interesting as it should be more "diffuse" (along with dipoles) which seems to suit the intended use as rear channels just fine.

This seems to be a great way to start off - keep it simple with crossover designs (none other than the high-pass output from my processor and some processor DSP tweaks), and a simple housing setup (mostly just make it as "artistic" and high-quality as I can).

Does anyone else dabble in home speaker design/construction here? I would really like to progress to two-way "omni-directional" speaker design/construction after this. Of course, there is no perfect Omni-directional speaker yet - the closest seems to be this:

http://www.mbl-northamerica.com/mbl-101-x-treme/

 

[dquarasr2]

I'm no audiophile, . . . .

Based on your post, I call "BS". :biggrin:

I have zero experience with custom-built speakers. But I can convey that there's a ton of good information in the book 'Get Better Sound' from Jim Smith. It provides tips on componentry but the book really focuses on "voicing the room". Check it out.

 

[RYU]

I use to build subwoofer enclosures for cars in college. I had computer programs (which was barely DOS based then) to calculate volume for bandpass, isobaric, etc type enclosures. The speakers that are out today blow my mind. The amount of sound my little SONOS sound bar system produces is unbelievable. Even my tiny Bose Bluetooth portable is ridiculously good.

I guess I have nothing to contribute to this thread as usual haha

 

[Miner]

I saw those omni directional speakers on "How its made." a bit ago. I am not sure I see the need for them in an enclosed space, up against a wall like in the picture? I would see that creating a reflection of all the sound off the wall, and in my head that sounds less than ideal.

I currently have a set of Bose accoustimas speakers (3 l, c, r) that give decent sound, and like you haven't had rear speakers in several years.

I believe that surround sound is very different than just good old fashioned music stereo. Not better or worse, just different. If I listen to my LPs, I am pretty sure the music is reproduced in stereo only (l and r) and 2 good speakers would be what is needed. If watching a movie that is in surround sound, I need all the channels (l, c, r, lr, rr, etc) for best effect to match the image.

My brother has a set of Magnapan flat panel speakers that he got from a client. He's never plugged them into a stereo, and I would love to give them a whirl on my stereo, although mounting is a challenge in my house. That would be for just listening to music and not in the home theatre room.

 

[jeffreygebhart]

I'm no audiophile, but I enjoy nice clean sound.

My music/theater setup is Vandersteen 3a fronts and his center channel. I have a newer Yamaha sound processor/amp, and I have the virtual presence speakers enabled with bookshelf speakers mounted about 6' up mostly to "lift" the center channel sounds higher into my 110" screen. I also happen to like the virtual presence speakers when listening to music in the simulated 7 channel sound mode.

Anyways, I've been missing proper rear channels in our new home the past few years. 90% of the time this setup is used for movies. Not the best use for the directional Vandersteens, but oh well. I like designing things and learning new stuff, so I'm thinking about buying a few Tang Band W8's and using them as full-range speakers with an open baffle for my rear channels. I can place them about a foot from my rear wall, and only have about five feet between those and the primary listeners ears. The open baffle design sounds interesting as it should be more "diffuse" (along with dipoles) which seems to suit the intended use as rear channels just fine.

This seems to be a great way to start off - keep it simple with crossover designs (none other than the high-pass output from my processor and some processor DSP tweaks), and a simple housing setup (mostly just make it as "artistic" and high-quality as I can).

Does anyone else dabble in home speaker design/construction here? I would really like to progress to two-way "omni-directional" speaker design/construction after this. Of course, there is no perfect Omni-directional speaker yet - the closest seems to be this:

http://www.mbl-northamerica.com/mbl-101-x-treme/

If this is your house, I'd be more interested in seeing photos of some of the exotic cars that you undoubtedly own!

 

[jwmelvin]

That's not his house. Those are the quintessential example of omnidirectional speakers.

Dave, I remember hearing Sigfried Linkwitz's speakers back in the 90's that were dipole, folded-baffle construction. If I remember correctly they were something close to 8", with separate towers of 12" drivers also dipole, for bass. I remember the bass as very detailed, similar in many ways to the very large Magnepan bass panels.

I have a few systems, one of which uses dipole 1.6 Magnepans (my bedroom). It is certainly a clean sound. I really think there is a lot behind the lack of room stimulation from dipole radiation. My dad changed from Wilson Watt/Puppy to Apogee panels and got a much better result in a large, very reflective room.

I'd love to play with exactly the setup you describe. My buddy was able to get a set of replacement panels from Martin Logan a few years back and has a successful setup with those, crossed over to some in-ceiling 10" drivers (2 each side) though I believe he is currently using something else because of the need for an electronic crossover with the panels.

Do you have an electronic crossover? I think it will be a key part of such a setup, to get the parameters dialed in. My speaker-building experience is more along the lines of subwoofer enclosures (my theater has two fridge-sized subs) and system tuning.

 

[NSX2398]

You might want to check out the AVSForum site .. specifically their DIY speaker forum here: http://www.avsforum.com/forum/155-diy-speakers-subs/ If you can't find what you want, ask. I know from prior posts that these guys are into some serious speaker combos and subs. I'm not into DIY speakers so can't personally give you any recommendations.

 

[RYU]

A little OT but are vacuum tubes still popular?

 

[Juice]

They are, but they waste so much power that it's hard to justify their use for anything outside of hi-fi headphone use.

To agree with another, omni directional seam to me to be counterintuitive to what makes great sound. Nothing in nature moves sound in all directions simultaneously. You would need a form of radial amplification using a directional based codec. No one wasted time with this, outside of what soundbars are doing these days with Atmos. It would be cheaper and better to simply add more timber matched speakers to a given sound stage.

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk

 

[jwmelvin]

Not so sure about that. All bass frequencies are omnidirectional, once the enclosure is smaller than about 1/6 wavelength. And plenty of high-end speakers include a rear-facing tweeter to radiate high frequencies in a more-omnidirectional pattern.

 

[Mac Attack]

Based on your post, I call "BS". :biggrin:

I have zero experience with custom-built speakers. But I can convey that there's a ton of good information in the book 'Get Better Sound' from Jim Smith. It provides tips on componentry but the book really focuses on "voicing the room". Check it out.

Thank you, I'll have to check that out!

 

[Mac Attack]

I use to build subwoofer enclosures for cars in college. I had computer programs (which was barely DOS based then) to calculate volume for bandpass, isobaric, etc type enclosures. The speakers that are out today blow my mind. The amount of sound my little SONOS sound bar system produces is unbelievable. Even my tiny Bose Bluetooth portable is ridiculously good.

I guess I have nothing to contribute to this thread as usual haha

If you're interested, you can download the free program WinISD. It has a pretty good library of popular speaker parameters, or you can input your specific values and calculate a lot of what you described. I agree about the small BT portables. My Definitive Technology Cubes sound awesome for what they are. I picked up a couple at $100 each about a year ago and they still work great.

Most audiophiles would cringe at them, but the Bose and Def Tech engineers (and Ferrari, Lamborghini, etc) have spent a lot of time and money on psychoacoustics to study what most people find "pleasing." I'm impressed by each group after diving into these two areas myself (speakers and exhausts)!

 

[Mac Attack]

I saw those omni directional speakers on "How its made." a bit ago. I am not sure I see the need for them in an enclosed space, up against a wall like in the picture? I would see that creating a reflection of all the sound off the wall, and in my head that sounds less than ideal.

I currently have a set of Bose accoustimas speakers (3 l, c, r) that give decent sound, and like you haven't had rear speakers in several years.

I believe that surround sound is very different than just good old fashioned music stereo. Not better or worse, just different. If I listen to my LPs, I am pretty sure the music is reproduced in stereo only (l and r) and 2 good speakers would be what is needed. If watching a movie that is in surround sound, I need all the channels (l, c, r, lr, rr, etc) for best effect to match the image.

My brother has a set of Magnapan flat panel speakers that he got from a client. He's never plugged them into a stereo, and I would love to give them a whirl on my stereo, although mounting is a challenge in my house. That would be for just listening to music and not in the home theatre room.

I agree. The Yamaha DSP (like others I'm sure) lets you play around with various parameters. Yamaha says you shouldn't hear a significant difference between their 2ch mode and their 7ch mode... the other channels are just there to add a bit more ambiance to the sound. You can change it around to suit your tastes.

I've never heard Maggie's either, but would like to. You have to be careful with them from what I've heard. I think the panels degrade over time, but I could just be spreading false rumors.

 

[Mac Attack]

That's not his house. Those are the quintessential example of omnidirectional speakers.

Dave, I remember hearing Sigfried Linkwitz's speakers back in the 90's that were dipole, folded-baffle construction. If I remember correctly they were something close to 8", with separate towers of 12" drivers also dipole, for bass. I remember the bass as very detailed, similar in many ways to the very large Magnepan bass panels.

I have a few systems, one of which uses dipole 1.6 Magnepans (my bedroom). It is certainly a clean sound. I really think there is a lot behind the lack of room stimulation from dipole radiation. My dad changed from Wilson Watt/Puppy to Apogee panels and got a much better result in a large, very reflective room.

I'd love to play with exactly the setup you describe. My buddy was able to get a set of replacement panels from Martin Logan a few years back and has a successful setup with those, crossed over to some in-ceiling 10" drivers (2 each side) though I believe he is currently using something else because of the need for an electronic crossover with the panels.

Do you have an electronic crossover? I think it will be a key part of such a setup, to get the parameters dialed in. My speaker-building experience is more along the lines of subwoofer enclosures (my theater has two fridge-sized subs) and system tuning.

I wish that was my home....

Wow. Your Mom was into NSX's, you and your Dad are into serious sound setups, your brother is an aerodynamicist for a racing team... your family is awesome! More info on your theater setup please!

I would like to have some bass too, but I don't have space for a dedicated theater setup, and what I have in the family room is already pushing it with the wife acceptance factor. My old 1928 home would need an upgraded electrical service and then probably destroy the plaster walls and ceiling. I'm making do with bass shakers mounted to the furniture for movies... it took a lot of fiddling to make it blend OKish with the rest of my setup.

The Yamaha DSP lets me play around with individual EQ to some extent.

 

[Mac Attack]

You might want to check out the AVSForum site .. specifically their DIY speaker forum here: http://www.avsforum.com/forum/155-diy-speakers-subs/ If you can't find what you want, ask. I know from prior posts that these guys are into some serious speaker combos and subs. I'm not into DIY speakers so can't personally give you any recommendations.

Thanks Ian. That site sure is full of information and helpful folks.

 

[Mac Attack]

They are, but they waste so much power that it's hard to justify their use for anything outside of hi-fi headphone use.

To agree with another, omni directional seam to me to be counterintuitive to what makes great sound. Nothing in nature moves sound in all directions simultaneously. You would need a form of radial amplification using a directional based codec. No one wasted time with this, outside of what soundbars are doing these days with Atmos. It would be cheaper and better to simply add more timber matched speakers to a given sound stage.

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk

I agree with you to some extent. It hurts my head to think about all the factors involved when trying to recreate a live performance at a famous music hall. I think the recording techniques are an art that don't get as much credit as they deserve either.

Well, my original design goals were changed after I received the Tang Bands and listened to them "open baffle" style. There's no bass - well, not enough to use for rear channels. Now I know why all the open baffle designs I've seen using google search have at least 15" open baffle woofers to augment the lower frequencies. I've shifted to a simple sealed enclosure that meets my design goals and still sounds OK. When I receive my speaker spikes from Hong Kong and the cabinet is finished I'll post pics.

 

[Mac Attack]

I'm happy with my first speaker building attempt. I only have about $200 per speaker in components, but WAY too much time to admit.

As mentioned above, when I first got these 8" Tang Band full-range speakers, I wanted to make them open baffle. That changed the first minute I listened to them out of the box. Not enough bass for my rear channels. Also the sibilance (ssssss) was so terrible I thought I'd made a mistake going down this path. I've never thought much of speakers with whizzer cones. The online reviews were good for this bamboo paper speaker, so I decided to re-evaluate after breaking them in. Glad I did. After only 25 hours, these actually sounded good enough to proceed.

The next step was trying to go to a uniform radiant field for my rear channels. I wanted something unique, and spent a lot of time online browsing through pictures and speaker threads for reflective sound ideas. Once I had my conceptual design, I listened to these at various elevations relative to my seating height, and also with various reflective surface geometries. An inverted cone sounded best for sound dispersal, but that also took a lot of time working on the cone diameter, height, and also material trying to get the best sound. The radiant field sounded best with the cone angle matching the whizzer cone angle. I tried paper, plastic, and thin aluminum cone materials.

After finally working all that information out, it was time to build. I also spent some time studying subwoofer "sonotubes" for assembly ease. I'm no carpenter. In order to get my height, I chose to go with an ~40" tall, 10" diameter cardboard concrete forming tube. Well, these aren't hifi speakers, so a little box resonance won't kill me. I sprayed these inside and outside with a few cans of automotive underbody coating for dampening. Also, I padded the entire inner diameter with ~1.5" egg foam mattress topper. This helped a lot when rapping on the wall. The bottom 3/4" MDF board to seal the tube had about 8" of foam placed on top, then the whole thing was filled about 2/3rds with acoustic fiber. I didn't want any 1/4 wave resonances....

Because these rear-channel speakers are going in the back of the room where I currently have two floor-standing lamps, I also wanted these speakers to replace the lamps too. So, these speakers have 14 watt dimmable LEDs that are controlled by my Caseta wireless remote dimmers. No ugly cords going up around the speakers to the lights - 1 out of the four aluminum light stands is hollow for the wires.

My wife sewed black "socks" to go over these, and they match my front Vandersteen socks very well.

The only thing I don't like are the bottom outriggers and spikes. I wanted to make outriggers for stability (the top speaker weighs as much as the cardboard tube), but I dislike the "spider" look of this design. I kinda have an idea I've never seen on speakers before, but that will have to wait until next Winter!

I'd say my $400 total investment (plus a lot of my time) is sonically equivalent to a pair of $600 speakers you'd purchase at a retailer, but mine have an open sound field for the rear channels that I happen to like for movies. I'm pleased and would make them again.

For movies, a 120" ambient-light-rejecting screen covers this window, and the bay seat front drops down for the equipment and center channel....

View attachment 142565View attachment 142566View attachment 142568

 

[jwmelvin]

Dave, those look great! I actually like the outrigger feet but I'm interested to see your next idea.

What was the final material for the dispersion cone?

 

[willabeest]

the best audio i have ever heard is in my wife's Lexus SC 430. not just me, i have friends who cannot believe how good it sounds either.
she has the premium sound system in there (Mark Levinson) , and if you are in either front seat and shut your eyes a live concert sounds like you are there live. honest.

http://www.stereophile.com/content/high-end-tunes-go#EHAOX7FFKgBAOraB.97

 

[Mac Attack]

Dave, those look great! I actually like the outrigger feet but I'm interested to see your next idea.

What was the final material for the dispersion cone?

Thanks Jason. They are different looking... Glad I have an understanding wife!

I found this cone material walking through the craft store Michaels with the kids one day. It's half thick paper and half black plastic.

 

[JLCoolman]

I've never heard Maggie's either, but would like to. You have to be careful with them from what I've heard. I think the panels degrade over time, but I could just be spreading false rumors.

Not much of a contribution, but my first HTIB I bought was an Insginia (Best Buy's in house brand) setup that used flat panel speakers (I think they called the technology at the time NXT). They sounded amazing at the time and seemed to be able to provide a lot of sound for the size (the left/right speakers were a little larger than a postcard in surface area). The idea behind them was very cool/hip to me at the time. Anyway, that was 10+ years ago, and the speakers now still work but I think they have degraded in sound quality since then.

Random thought, I guess they worked along the same lines as how the new Ridgeline has exciters in the truck bed to turn it into a speaker system.

 

[Mac Attack]

Do you have an electronic crossover? I think it will be a key part of such a setup, to get the parameters dialed in. My speaker-building experience is more along the lines of subwoofer enclosures (my theater has two fridge-sized subs) and system tuning.

Your theater setup sounds awesome Jason! Do you have a build thread somewhere on it that I could go through? Are the fridge-sized subs tapped horns then?

Homemade subs may be on my to-do list this winter.

I currently have tactile transducers in the seats for movies (tuned not to be overly intrusive), and that's one of the reasons I've held off on a good sub build for such a long time. I don't need anything below 20Hz. To avoid damaging the lath/plaster walls and ceilings in my old home, I don't want very high SPL's either near 20Hz. The bass I have now in my wide open room with (2) 10's, (4) 8"s, and (4) 6.5"s is OK for music, but it's missing a little bit for movies.

For $1k that I would spend on two decent, smaller subs from HSU or SVS, I would rather try to make my own. I'm thinking a iNuke3000 (with DSP) for power, and two separate sealed 12" subs. Or maybe, two Speedwoofer 10s's. I know not to read too much into specs to get a nice sound, and these things seem to fit my needs... more on the musical side, not overly powerful or deep, and relatively inexpensive. Have you heard of them or have any recommendations please?

Thanks.

 

[Heavymetals]

I have blueprints for the JBL folded horns (!) from the 60's if you want to build a couple of lease breakers.

 

[jwmelvin]

Your theater setup sounds awesome Jason! Do you have a build thread somewhere on it that I could go through? Are the fridge-sized subs tapped horns then?

They are just sealed boxes with an 18” Fi woofer in each one. I have Tannoy concentric speakers all around, which can go reasonably low with their 12” drivers in front. The subs are pretty good; I’d like to measure them but have never done so. The boxes are double-layer MDF. Nothing too fancy really.

Here’s a shot from mid-assembly.

 

[warrenw]

I'm no audiophile, but I enjoy nice clean sound.

My music/theater setup is Vandersteen 3a fronts and his center channel. I have a newer Yamaha sound processor/amp, and I have the virtual presence speakers enabled with bookshelf speakers mounted about 6' up mostly to "lift" the center channel sounds higher into my 110" screen. I also happen to like the virtual presence speakers when listening to music in the simulated 7 channel sound mode.

Anyways, I've been missing proper rear channels in our new home the past few years. 90% of the time this setup is used for movies. Not the best use for the directional Vandersteens, but oh well. I like designing things and learning new stuff, so I'm thinking about buying a few Tang Band W8's and using them as full-range speakers with an open baffle for my rear channels. I can place them about a foot from my rear wall, and only have about five feet between those and the primary listeners ears. The open baffle design sounds interesting as it should be more "diffuse" (along with dipoles) which seems to suit the intended use as rear channels just fine.

This seems to be a great way to start off - keep it simple with crossover designs (none other than the high-pass output from my processor and some processor DSP tweaks), and a simple housing setup (mostly just make it as "artistic" and high-quality as I can).

Does anyone else dabble in home speaker design/construction here? I would really like to progress to two-way "omni-directional" speaker design/construction after this. Of course, there is no perfect Omni-directional speaker yet - the closest seems to be this:

http://www.mbl-northamerica.com/mbl-101-x-treme/

That is a difficult room for home audio. Glass and a hardwood. Basically an echo chamber. I would imagine you your amp has the ability to white noise test the room for optimum settings and get that rear channel to optimium. Otherwise you would need some really high end gear to get any quality sound in that hard surface room.