Anyone here a pharmaceutical sales rep?

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I am not sure about the future of my job and I am wondering about the pharmaceutical industy. Positives, Negatives?

The money sure sounds good, and would certainly help the quest for the NSX
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NetViper -= 100% Stock EBP 2000 Civic Si =- Still looking to get an NSX, but at least I can live life at 8,000 RPM!
 
Pharmeceutical industry is actually doing well. So well that the public is actually getting angry with the industry because they think they are out to rob sick people of there money. I think it was in TIME that they had a bar graph showing pharmeceutical company expenses. Biggest increase? 8 figure bonuses to CEO's for doing a good job, lol. Lowest, or near lowest, was research.

Oh yea, and I can only guess that it'll get better. You ever read all the disorders they have these days!?!? They have a name and pill for what seems like every freaking flaw in our bodies and mind. Take a look at Ritalin prescriptions...WAY WAY WAY up from the late 80's early 90's (may be off on the date). My mom's quick hand cured me of all my illnesses =P

[This message has been edited by skim83 (edited 02 October 2001).]
 
There you go Dave....now you're thinking.... Pharmaceutical sales is a very good job. It will, at least, give you good sales experience and that's the direction you need to go. Most Pharm sales jobs only pay around 60-70k but they usually come with a car and expenses....... That should get you a good start towards the NSX. I have a few connections with Astra-Merck if you'd like.

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Todd Arnold
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http://www.geocities.com/nsxcessive/index.html
 
Pharmaceuticals will continue to grow as our population ages, and will be more immune to the ups and downs of the economy than some other industries.

The pharmaceutical industry is very high-tech. The R&D portion of expenditures is very high (it may not be growing as fast, but it's typically about 15-20 percent of revenues - that's high for most industries). It takes 8-10 years of R&D, including clinical trials, to bring a drug to market (down from 12 a few years ago).

Pharmaceutical sales means understanding what drugs do and calling on busy doctors to find a few minutes to explain to them and leave samples. It's a good field, and sales experience is transferrable to other fields as well, as Todd rightly points out.

I work for a pharmaceutical company (Pharmacia) and can get you more info if you're interested.
 
A couple of people I know have done pharm sales.

The first question you need to ask yourself is: Are you good at sales? If not, keep looking.

If you are good at sales, pharm sales is a good business. It is a fairly tough sales job - you spend all your time trying to get a few minutes with doctors who would rather spend their time billing patients and have many other pharm sales reps knocking on their door all week.

The base salary for the direct reps may be down in the 60-70 range, but if the person is really good they can expect to see 100+ with bonuses, as well as company car, trips and vacations as bonuses, etc.

That being said I personally don't like that entire angle of the industry. All those billions of dollars spent on the pharm sales reps who regularly do things like buy lunch for the entire doctor's office staff, flying doctors and their families to exotic locals on free vacations, etc. are part of the reason drug prices are so high. Sorry for the rant.
 
That being said I personally don't like that entire angle of the industry. All those billions of dollars spent on the pharm sales reps who regularly do things like buy lunch for the entire doctor's office staff, flying doctors and their families to exotic locals on free vacations, etc. are part of the reason drug prices are so high. Sorry for the rant.

That's somewhat of an exaggeration, but I understand your point. And I think that's basically true for the marketing and sales expenditures in any industry. Heck, the price of cars or food products would be a lot lower if they wouldn't advertise on TV. But it also might not be as easy for the average consumer to find out about new products or the advantages of one product over another.
 
I think Lud is talking about excess brown-nosing. I agree that products need to be advertised but free trips to exotic locals...now come on, that's just buying the person out. Oh well, I can't complain though, I use the same tactic although not to that extent. That's the business of selling, eh? =)
 
What bugs me about all those free lunches and trips and such is the thought that my health might depend on who can deliver the best swag to the office. I want my doctor to give me the drug that will cure me, not the one from the guy who sent him to Bermuda.

-Bob
 
It really is not much of an exageration at all. I do not know if the amount is "billions" but it is certainly at least hundreds of millions. I can find out if it matters.

The difference, in my mind, between what the drug reps do and traditional advertising is that the doctors are not the customers. The decision about which brand of food, model of car, etc. is generally made by the same person or family paying for it. In the case of drugs, the doctor specifies brand while the patient and/or their insurance picks up the tab.

I think most other areas of business would consider a similar arrangement to that of drug reps and doctors as an ethical conflict of interest.
 
Originally posted by Lud:
In the case of drugs, the doctor specifies brand while the patient and/or their insurance picks up the tab.


I think this depends on your medical coverage. Some plans require the generic version unless one isn't available. But you're right, many doctors hand-out samples of drugs provided by the sales rep. If they seem to work then they write a script for them. This is the way the pharm companies get around the generic issue.

I also agree there are problems around the way drugs are prescribed as there are just too many drugs coming on the market for the doc's to keep up with. For me I have kidney and liver problems so I highly educate myself on all drugs, that's over and behind the counter. You's be surprised how dangerous some over the counter drugs are to your vital organs. The best advice is to educate yourself about what is being prescribed.
 
I have a friend who is a doctor and he was being courted by drug companies while only in his second year of med school."Treat the symptoms,not the cause" was,and probably still is, the message.I remember him coming home for break with dozens of samples."Give this for that".
That was over twenty years ago. Job security in an ever-aging world....
 
I'm not expert on health plans, but I do know every plan I've ever personally looked at specified that the doctor was allowed to specify whether or not a generic equivilent could be substituted for the scrip.

[This message has been edited by Lud (edited 09 October 2001).]
 
Here's another angle on this topic. The millions of dollars spent on tv advertising apparently gives the paitent the idea that they know better than the doctor. Countless times I have had patients demand a drug because of a commercial. Furthermore, when I do write a script for a brand name drug that a patient "really does" need, 50% of the time I get a call from the pharmacy because the patient can't afford the medication even with their insurance. Now I'm not talking about pain pills, I'm talking about anti-biotics that are very specific to the bacteria that I need to control. Believe it or not, you can die from a dental infection and I've seen it almost happen to patients that don't listen, and pharmacists that think they are doctors.

Enough of my ranting, I'll just get pissed even more if I continue to discuss this topic.

I forgot to mention that there are different compounds and fillers in generic medications that can cause reactions that the brand name doesn't.

-Cheers

[This message has been edited by Dr.Lane (edited 06 October 2001).]
 
Originally posted by Dr.Lane:
Here's another angle on this topic. The millions of dollars spent on tv advertising apparently gives the paitent the idea that they know better than the doctor.
[This message has been edited by Dr.Lane (edited 06 October 2001).]

I totally agree paitents don't know better than the doctor. Look at the number of years of training required and exposure to the number of different cases. How can someone who isn't a doc think they know as much or more. This is just like people who play the market on the side. When the market is going up and up it's easy but when the makret is falling it gets damn hard to make money unless you know what you're doing. I think that's why it's called a profession.

Also what I meant by my comment is that I am able to have a pretty detailed dialog with my doctor because I take the time to actually read those pieces of paper given with every drug that outlines potential interactions and side effects. I also have several medical references that my doctor gave because I wanted to know more. It's probably helps that I have a higher education in the sciences. Because of my liver I have to know what in the hell is going on. There's no choice.
 
Originally posted by hejo:

...Also what I meant by my comment is that I am able to have a pretty detailed dialog with my doctor because I take the time to actually read those pieces of paper given with every drug that outlines potential interactions and side effects....I have to know what in the hell is going on. There's no choice.

This statement coudn't be said better. It shows the persons desire to learn more about their health and treatment. I have always welcomed a patients questions about the medication that I prescribe. What I don't tolerate is someone demanding a specific medication or a reps BS about why I should prescribe their drug. In the end, it is myslef who is responsible for the treatment of my patients. Not the drug reps or commercials that we all hear about.

On a lighter note, I haven't been taken out to lunch lately by a rep. I guess I need to start using more brand name drugs in my practice.
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-Cheers
 
On a lighter note, I haven't been taken out to lunch lately by a rep.

Yes, but what about all those trips where you've been taken to exotic locales?
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Originally posted by nsxtasy:

Yes, but what about all those trips where you've been taken to exotic locales?
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It's difficult trying to write off those friction lunches. Uncle Sam doesn't quite agree that it's all part of marketing.

[This message has been edited by Dr.Lane (edited 09 October 2001).]
 
Originally posted by nsxtasy:
On a lighter note, I haven't been taken out to lunch lately by a rep.

Yes, but what about all those trips where you've been taken to exotic locales?
rolleyes.gif

Since I earned a "rolling eyes" icon for my comments, I did some research, though I do not really think it is any big secret that doctors and their families are regularly wined and dined and offered subsidized trips to drug company sponsored events and "seminars" in locations such as Hawaii, Florida, Caribbean islands, on cruise ships, etc. About the only thing they have been forced to cut back on recently is the flat out paying of cash "grants" to the doctors who actually attended the sales seminars while at the destination instead of just vacationing on the drug company's dime and blowing off the seminars.

Drug companies spend $5-7 billion a year on direct marketing to doctors, about that much again on samples, and about $2-2.5 billion on consumer advertising (tv commercials, etc.) Drug companies are not stupid. They would not spend over $5B marketing directly to doctors if it did not pay off. Divide $5B by the number of doctors they are marketing to and see what it comes out to per doctor. That buys a lot more than some logo pens and notepads...

If Dr. Lane is not receiving this treatment, I expect it is because as a dentist he tends to prescribe a narrower and less intensely competitive (and profitable) subset of drugs than many physicians, and the reps target accordingly. Allergy medications, Viagra, diabetes drugs, ADHD drugs, etc. are a few examples of the "hot" drugs these days.

Dr. Lane's joke about needing to prescribe more name brand drugs to get more free lunches is really no joke at all - drug reps target doctors according to their prescribing habits and history. The reps success is judged by the delta in the number of prescriptions for their brand in their region.

For continued skeptics, here are some fairly reliable sources that make interesting reading:

http://www.healthmatters.org.uk/stories/mansfield.html
http://www.who.int/dap-icium/posters/4P7_fintext.html
http://www.marshfieldclinic.org/cattails/00/julaug/home.asp?FullArticle=Yes
http://www.state.ri.us/ethics/Advisory%20Opinions/1997/97-020.htm
http://www.acponline.org/journals/news/oct97/ethicdr.htm
http://www.healthlibrary.com/reading/ethics/1_96/medical.htm

I could site dozens or hundreds more, but what is the point? Just go to a major search engine and plug in the terms "doctor" "pharmaceutical" and "ethics" or "ethical"....

[This message has been edited by Lud (edited 09 October 2001).]
 
Originally posted by Lud:
...If Dr. Lane is not receiving this treatment, I expect it is because as a dentist he tends to prescribe a narrower and less intensely competitive (and profitable) subset of drugs than many physicians, and the reps target accordingly. In fact they target by specific doctors' prescribing habits and history.
...

That is 100% correct, but when it comes to pain medications the reps are knocking down my door sometimes. They are like car salesmen trying to sell me something I don't need, and that's also why I never accept any free samples.

Oh well, I guess I should ask for free tee times at Doral the next time a rep comes into my office.
 
Originally posted by Dr.Lane:
It's difficult trying to write off those friction lunches. Uncle Sam doesn't quite agree that it's all part of marketing.


Your not writing down the expense correctly. It was about a group program. Honest I was looking at all there ah ah ah teeth, ya that's it. They had big perl shaped, ah I mean perl like ones.
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I have to comment. Being a doctor who is constantly inumdated with drug "reps", often 5-10 each day, I take exception to many of your comments. I too have accepted lunches, concert tickets etc. from these people. I have never been offered anything substantial ie trips etc from any of them.

They are selling a product. I, to a limited extent, have control over how much of that product gets sold. I would much rather have been "detailed" by a rep and thus choose that drug than have an insurance company (who, by the way, has its financial future as its primary concern rather then anyone's health) dictate what it should be.

Not to turn this into a tirade but my patients' best interest is ALWAYS my number one priority no matter what I may have been given by a pharmaceutical company. That being said, if I have a choice between two equivalent medications, one from a company that frequently visits my office and one that does not, I will choose the more familiar drug ie the from the rep that has provided "gifts." I do not prescribe anything unnecessarily, nor do I withold meds from people. Insurance companies do.

How many people on this board have not been offered perks of some kind? How many have accepted them? Once again people in the medical profession are being held to a higher standard than the rest of the population. I would put my morals and ethics up against nearly anyone. If I accept something from a drug company, I am being influenced, mistreating my patients and wasting money filling the pockets of drug companies. If someone else does it, it's just a "fringe benefit."

I work 12-15 hours a day, often 7 days a week. If I make a mistake, or even if I don't, a patient with a bad outcome can ruin my livelihood, tarnish my record and jeopardize my very ability to earn a living. There are local, state and national boards that monitor and record my every action. Every complaint ever made against me is made public record, valid or not. I cannot respond publicly to any of them for confidentiality reasons. That doesn't stop them, they are free to make all of the false and unsubstantiated claims they want and I have no recourse. I also cannot refuse care to anyone who walks into my office and requests it. I cannot turn them away regardless of their ability to pay. How many of you, in your professions has to provide free services, products, etc to EVERYONE who request them? I write off thousands of dollars of free care every year. I believe I am entitled to a few "perks" just as all of you are.

Please everyone, climb down off of your moral high horses until you walk in my shoes for 15 or so hours a day.
 
Nobody is saying doctors are bad people. I know I, and I think most people here, have a lot of respect for doctors as a whole. It is probably the most widely respected profession in the world.

Nobody is arguing that insurance, HMOs, etc. do not have their own problems. That is an entirely different topic.

Nobody is saying that being a doctor is easy. In fact I think we all know it is an extremely challenging, both to become a doctor and then to practice medicine as a career.

All I am saying that I think the methods drug reps use to buy influence with doctors is wrong. I have already detailed why I think it is worse in the case of the doctor/drug rep relationship than most others who receive "perks."

Even aside from that, you are right, doctors are held to a higher standard, and I think they should be. If the guy paving your driveway accidently paves over part of your flowerbed, you may be upset but it's not a huge crisis. However, as you said, if a doctor makes a mistake it can cost someone their health or in the worst case their life.

Doctors are not the only ones who are held to a higher standard. If a bridge design is wrong and it collapses during construction as a result, the engineer who put their seal on the plans is personally responsible. Again, that is a position where people should be and are held to a higher standard because a mistake can cause destruction and death.

Doctors are also not the only ones that work 12-15 hours a day, often 7 days a week. Most of my friends at Microsoft work similar hours, and in the end they are compensated well for it much like doctors. However, many of the people who work those kind of hors, often by working two menial jobs, earn a small fraction of what any doctor earns. Those of us who work long and hard hours to be successful at a career of our choosing should be thankful both for what we have and for being able to do what we love.

[This message has been edited by Lud (edited 12 October 2001).]
 
Lud wrote:
All those billions of dollars spent on the pharm sales reps who regularly do things like buy lunch for the entire doctor's office staff, flying doctors and their families to exotic locals on free vacations, etc. are part of the reason drug prices are so high.

Oh, man, I love those lunches. If it weren't for them, most days I wouldn't have the time to go get my own lunch.

The free vacations you speak of are so extraordinarily rare that I don't know a single doctor who has ever received one. The two most extravagant gifts I've seen were a $120 textbook given to a urology resident by a Viagra rep, and a catered dinner at a large conference. Where I work, we're not permitted to accept any gift with a monetary value over $50.

NSXLNT wrote:
All those billions of dollars spent on the pharm sales reps who regularly do things like buy lunch for the entire doctor's office staff, flying doctors and their families to exotic locals on free vacations, etc. are part of the reason drug prices are so high.

It's just marketing. It's built into the price of every product in every industry.

Dr. Lane wrote:
Countless times I have had patients demand a drug because of a commercial.

My favorite is that damn chicken pox vaccine commercial that tells parents that their kids could die if they don't ask their doctor for the vaccine. :-)

Lud wrote:
Doctors are also not the only ones that work 12-15 hours a day, often 7 days a week. [...] However, many of the people who work those kind of hors, often by working two menial jobs, earn a small fraction of what any doctor earns.

Call me an elitist, but a menial job should pay a small fraction of what any doctor earns.


Oh, and I echo what SCS2k said 100%.
 
Thanks to all of you for all your comments, opinions, thoughts etc.

I have decided to pursue this career because of the many benefits it offers over my current profession.

Thanks for all of your help. I will be contacting those of you who emailed me shortly.

Thanks again,

Dave


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NetViper -= 100% Stock EBP 2000 Civic Si =- Still looking to get an NSX, but at least I can live life at 8,000 RPM!
 
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