Alignment problems with H&R Springs?

Joined
4 March 2003
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1,647
Location
Madison, WI
Had the NSX in to Acura of Brookfield today for some maintenance and track prep/inspection. The Alignment specs were way off, despite having been set less than two months ago. The specs varied to such an extent that it did not seem to be the result of a pothole/rut/etc. or other 'natural' causes.

I have heard that the H&R springs may be the culprit. Has anyone else with H&R springs had problems keeping their alignment correct?

And if so, any suggestions? Go back to stock springs? Buy some different aftermarket springs?
 
Before I purchased the car in May of 2003. I believe they have been on the car for several years.
 
Were they able to get it back in to spec? Did John Vasso have any insights on why the alignment was so far off? I had my car done there in spring and it also was way off. I do plan on doing yearly alignments in the future when driving season starts in spring here in Wisconsin.

Did you get the printout of the completed alignment #'s,
 
They brought it back to spec, and I have the alignment printout.

John thought it was related to the springs, but also commented on the weird disparity in camber and toe from front to back and left to right.

Let me know if you want any specific numbers.
 
Since you just got the car who knows what was done for alignments in the past and wether it was even aligned after the instalation of the springs.

I also live in Milwaukee, are you a member of NSXCA if you are the Midwest Chaptor is having a Brunch Meeting Aug. 31 in IL. I am going would be nice to have someone else there from WI.
 
brahtw8 said:
... Has anyone else with H&R springs had problems keeping their alignment correct?

Taken literally, the answer is "no". Once the alignment is set the springs don't "keep" it or otherwise, they just go along for the ride. Beyond normal minor settling (true for all springs but possibly less for the stiffer H&R) the only way they can impact the alignment is if they were installed in such a way that they were not on the perch correctly, ride too high, then dropped into the perch later. In these cases the problem is with the tech doing the work, not the springs, so the H&Rs are no more likely to have problems than any others. The other possibility is that they collapse, but that is unlikely and would be obvious when examined.

I would be curious to see actual specs before and after. The (typical) H&R springs lower the car enough that the rear can't possibly be brought to spec.
 
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I shouldn't have used the term 'spec' so loosely. The rears are currently set at -3.0 and -3.1 degrees, which is not what a stock NSX would be running, but apparently appropriate 'spec' for my car with the H&Rs.
 
Briank said:
Since you just got the car who knows what was done for alignments in the past and wether it was even aligned after the instalation of the springs.

I also live in Milwaukee, are you a member of NSXCA if you are the Midwest Chaptor is having a Brunch Meeting Aug. 31 in IL. I am going would be nice to have someone else there from WI.

I am a member. Unfortunately, I will be out of town that weekend. I will be at Blackhawk Farms this Friday and Road America on August 23 (maybe) and 24th, hopefully with some fellow NSXers.

If you are interested, I will be at Kopp's in Brookfield this Wednesday at 6pm, along with a few other NSX and import/exotic afficionados, as mentioned here:

http://www.nsxprime.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=21251
 
I need to ask if there are camber adjustment kits that will work for this car so i dont have -3 camber.....I know H&R makes bolts...but dont know if they will fit as they are oval on the shaft and dont use washers like we do....

Mike
 
pok8rok8 said:
I need to ask if there are camber adjustment kits that will work for this car so i dont have -3 camber.....I know H&R makes bolts...but dont know if they will fit as they are oval on the shaft and dont use washers like we do....

Mike

There are no commonly available rear camber kits at this time, but someone is investigating the possibility of using the CT front ball joint offset bushings on the rear. If they don't fit I'm inclined to talk with my machinist about fabricating some.
 
sjs said:
Will you be there all weekend? Is Friday an open track day or will you run the autocross on Saturday? I'll arrive on Saturday evening to run the Sunday races.

No, only Friday (BMW CCA school).
 
sjs said:
There are no commonly available rear camber kits at this time, but someone is investigating the possibility of using the CT front ball joint offset bushings on the rear. >>>>>If they don't fit I'm inclined to talk with my machinist about fabricating some.<<<<<


Please do!!!! :( I really really really want a camber kit!
 
Hi Ryan,

The H&R springs were put on in 1998. These particular springs did seem to drop the car lower in the rear than advertised, I believe the rears were dropped by 2+ inches and the fronts only 3/4". If you remind John Vassos, he may remember that I had him install two different sets of H&R springs and the results were the same amount of drop.

With that said, the camber was set at -2.8 for the rear with 0 toe. I believe the fronts were set within OEM specs with a slight positive camber. I went through a set of rear tires and went back for a replacement in 2001 and I believe the rear was again set back to -2.8. That was minimum camber they could get with those springs.

When you originally got the alignment done two months ago, was the alignment way off at that time? I hadn't checked it since 2001.

Kenric
 
Hi Kenric-

The alignment was pretty off the first time , but part of that was the pothole bent-rim incident. :( Rim now fixed, but still off a little cosmetically. (You can see a slight bulge)

NSX ownership is not cheap, but very rewarding. I have nearly 6k miles on the car since May, without using it as a daily driver.

The rears are now at -3.0. I did have to replace the rear tires, as they got worn down on the inside, but I think they were already a little worn. I should be driving the car harder and with TCS off.

The car now has toe-in in the rear.

I probably will replace the H&Rs with Eibachs, as John thinks that is the only way to avoid having to constantly align the car. We shall see how it all turns out. I do love the look, as the car is lower than any other NSX I have encountered thus far, particularly in the rear.
 
I never heard about the bent rim incident, what happened?

That sounds right for replacing the rears, you put on 6k and I believe I put on about 6k also before I sold it. So 12k isn't too bad for rear tire wear.

I don't understand how changing the spring brand will solve the alignment changing issue. The only thing it would do is allow the rear camber to get closer to OEM specs.

Did you request rear toe-in in the alignment or are you saying that you can't get it to zero anymore?
 
Ag NSX said:
I never heard about the bent rim incident, what happened?

That sounds right for replacing the rears, you put on 6k and I believe I put on about 6k also before I sold it. So 12k isn't too bad for rear tire wear.

I don't understand how changing the spring brand will solve the alignment changing issue. The only thing it would do is allow the rear camber to get closer to OEM specs.

Did you request rear toe-in in the alignment or are you saying that you can't get it to zero anymore?

In late May/early June I came across a deep pothole that I could not avoid and hit the right front rim hard. I could immediately tell the difference, as the steering wheel had to be turned 10 degrees for the car to go straight. I took it to A of B and they were able to straighten the rim out, but they couldn't get the lip fixed, so if you look very closely you can tell that the lip is not perfectly round. According to John the rim is good as new, other than the appearance issue.

I don't know why the H&Rs are supposed to be a problem versus the Eibachs, but that is what John says.

AFAIK it was always intended to be toe-in.
 
I would have to say that either John is mistaken or misunderstood. As noted above, once installed, springs are just along for the ride with regards to alignment. They dictate the angle of your suspension arms at rest, which is why they change the static camber setting.

Picture how it all works. In simplified form, the springs literally hold the car up off the tires. The distance from the bottom of the tire (the pavement) to the bottom of the springs is fixed. The angle of the tire relative to the shock and spring is also fixed. As you shorten the top of the springs, the car must come down to rest on them by pivoting on the inner mounting points of the suspension arms. Or in effect, the tire/shock/spring assembly is traveling up into the wheel well to support the car. But it does so on an arc because it is on the outside end of an arm that pivots on the inner suspension mounts. The fact that it travels on an arc to the new resting position is what causes the change in static camber. As the suspension swings up, the top of the tire must tip towards the car and the bottom tips away. That's negative camber. But once the spring is correctly installed, the new position at rest defines the new static camber (adjustments aside) and the only way the spring can change it again is by changing length. That only happens when they fail and collapse. (Our roadways here are in no better shape than most, yet I've put tens of thousands of miles on the H&R/Koni combination and the springs are still as-new. As they should be.) And of course the springs do not have any impact on the ability to adjust toe.

I suppose one could say that because the H&R springs are stiffer than most they transmit more force to the suspension and therefore may cause the manual adjusters to shift. But if everything is properly torqued (On stiff suspensions I use higher torques than specified) and you don't keep hitting big potholes, that argument should not be valid.

BTW, the "correct" way to compensate for camber changes caused by lowering is to relocate the inner pivot points up higher in the chassis. By doing so you return the at-rest angle of the suspension arms to their correct position so they travel through the "sweet" spot in the arc that minimizes geometry changes during cornering. One of the most noticeable effects of starting too high in the arc is the nasty bump-steer you may have noticed where the wheel kicks in your hands as you corner hard and hit small bumps or approach the limits of the front tires. Since the complex design of the NSX suspension does not make it practical to relocate the suspension mounts, I plan to raise my car ~1/2 inch with spacer rings under the spring perch. Not just because of camber but because of all the geometry issues.
 
brahtw8 said:


I have heard that the H&R springs may be the culprit. Has anyone else with H&R springs had problems keeping their alignment correct?
You will never get better than a negative 2.8 camber with H&R springs. The best I have acomplished is a negative 2.2 with Eibach Pro Kit.
 
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Re: Re: Alignment problems with H&R Springs?

AKUDOU said:
You will never get better than a negative 2.8 camber with H&R springs. The best I have acomplished is a negative 2.2 with Eibach Pro Kit.

With stock adjustments this is true, but I think the key word in his question is "keeping", as in not changing once set, more evident by reading his entire post.
 
Re: Re: Re: Alignment problems with H&R Springs?

sjs said:
With stock adjustments this is true, but I think the key word in his question is "keeping", as in not changing once set, more evident by reading his entire post.
Back to my point with the H&R spring problem I had H&R on three years running and the car progresively kept getting lower adding rear negative camber. And yes I read his post thats why I suggested the Eibach springs.BTW do we need to write a book on this subject.Personally I would throw the PS H&Rs away and go with the Eibach/Bilsteins on the upper perch.
 
Sometimes it takes a book. I'm still waiting to hear how/why the H&R springs were responsible for your problems or his. Did you measure the springs to confirm they were collapsing? Were you running appropriate dampers for springs of that rate? Barring that, I'll have to believe, as well as suggest to others, that it is inaccurate.

As for them being POS, that too is totally unfounded. H&R has made quality springs for many cars for years and my experience is that these are no different. The Eibachs are an entirely different approach, being progressive in rate, starting softer than stock then getting stiffer at a non-linear rate. That is the epitome of compromise in that it does nothing for initial body roll, and probably increases it. Consequently, people tend to go with stiffer anti-sway bars than they would need with linear rate springs. That's bad if your goals include better handling in the classic sense of the term. Start with stiffer springs and matching dampers to the degree that is tolerable in terms of comfort, then add no more bar than necessary to achieve the desired end result and balance. There’s more to it than that of course, but for most street applications that’s the place to start.

Compromises are fine, our cars are full of them as is most everything. Some people like to lower their car while keeping the ride plush, so they find the Eibachs a nice compromise. I don't, but that doesn't bring me to call them POS.

I could go on and write that book if you like, but I normally I just try to provide enough info such that not only is the original post answered but the topic is covered well enough for anyone interested in it, and of course to dispel myths with no apparent basis in fact.
 
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