alignment for track using stock suspension

[Q]

Saw a post that was similar to this one, but it didn't satisfy my query. And yes I tried a search. :frown:

I want to get an alignment that will be setup ideally for track use, since I don't mind extra tire wear.

Here is my current setup:

- Stock suspension and sway bars
- Type-R front braces
- Tires, S03 215/40/17 front, 265/35/18 rear
- Wheels, Volk TE37, 17x8 front, 18x9.5 rear


Would the more aggresive '91 specs be suited for me? Is there another setup I should try? Anything I'm missing or should be aware of?

Thanks,
Sean

 

[nsxtasy]

Would the more aggresive '91 specs be suited for me?

Yes. (The original '91 specs with 6 mm of toe in the rear.)

 

[1BADNSX]

Q, I don't think the stock 91 specs will help you much because they don't produce more lateral traction. Toe-in in the rear makes the car more stable at high speed, under braking, and when adding power exiting a corner. More toe-in isn't always better.

You want more lateral traction, not more stability. Therefore, add negative camber. I think 2 degrees up front and 2.5 in the back. 1/16 of inch toe-out up front and 1/16 inch toe-in in the rear. I would also add anti-roll bars.

Bob

 

[nsxtasy]

You also might want to discuss it with John Vasos at Acura of Brookfield, and have them do the alignment. They work on a lot of track cars, and know all the pluses and minuses. They will even put you in the driver's seat during the alignment so that the weight balance is as it would be on the track.

But if you don't have a lot of track experience yet, then don't worry about it...

 

[OLDE GUY]

"SETUP IDEALLY" as you mentioned, I agree with going for the maximum negative camber front and rear and the 1991 toe settings. You won't be able to get much more than front negative 1.4 degrees and rear negative 2.2 degrees with the stock suspension. But every little bit helps. Make sure the castor is equal at 8 degrees or a little more for good initial turn-in. One of the ingenious mechanisms of the NSX suspension is that this high amount of castor increases the front negative camber when the steering wheel is turned.

With the NSX type R suspension, the maximum negative camber that I can get is front negative 1.6 degrees and rear negative 2.3 degrees. I increased the castor to 8.7 degrees for the type R. I still use the 1991 toe recommendations setting the rear close to maximum of the range and the front in the middle of the recommended range.

 

[Q]

Hey guys, I really appreciate the feedback. Now I've got some ideas when I go get it aligned.

I'm hoping this is an iterim solution until I can completely upgrade the suspension.

 

[nsxtasy]

I have a few questions.

Just to recap...

Honda recommended toe spec:
Front -3.5 mm
Rear (original spec) +6 mm
Rear (revised spec) +4 mm

I'm using the original spec. Bob mentions using -1.6 mm toe in front and +1.6 mm in the rear but I'm not sure why...

Honda recommended camber spec:
Front -0.33 deg
Rear -1.50 deg

Bob and Bill both recommend more (Bob -2.0 F and -2.5 R, Bill -1.4 F and -2.2 R) and I can understand how that helps flatten the tire in cornering. But wouldn't that also exacerbate the NSX's tendency to wear the front tires on the inside edge of the tread in street driving?

 

[OLDE GUY]

.....But wouldn't that also exacerbate the NSX's tendency to wear the front tires on the inside edge of the tread in street driving?

It sure does. But I was responding to the initiator of this Thread's criteria: "setup ideally for track use" . Of course with track use, one is wearing the outer edges of all the tires due to cornering forces, especially on the left side. In fact, the outer edge wear is so marked that I dismount my Bridgestone S03s and mount them on the wheels of the opposite side about 2/3 of the way through the tires' life. In my experience, if you track a lot, the outer edge of the left front tire is gone before the inner edge wear is a problem. I understand that you use R compound tires so you can dismount the tires too and put them on the opposite wheels.

Bob will have to answer the "toe" question.

 

[1BADNSX]

I'm using the original spec. Bob mentions using -1.6 mm toe in front and +1.6 mm in the rear but I'm not sure why...

But wouldn't that also exacerbate the NSX's tendency to wear the front tires on the inside edge of the tread in street driving?

I meant to say 1/16 inch per side, which is about 3 mm. This is plenty of toe-out up front and toe-in in the rear.

The additional negative camber is what gives you more cornering traction.

My personal belief is Honda covered up some minor stock suspension handling flaws with additional toe (both front and rear). With the stock anti-roll bars, the stock NSX doesn’t turn-in very well unless you add significant toe-out. With stiffer bars, the stock toe-out can be reduced with decent results. They added the extreme toe-in in the rear to make the car more stable. Stability and maneuverability are opposites. If your car turns-in fine and is stable under braking and corner exit, you have enough toe-out up front and toe-in in the rear.

Yes extra camber causes additional street tire wear, but so does too much toe. I used to run -3.5 degrees of negative camber with very little toe-out in the front of the M3 and it had decent street tire wear. By lowering the stock NSX recommended toe angles, while increasing camber, the street tire wear should be about the same.

Bob

 

[nsxtasy]

You also might want to discuss it with John Vasos at Acura of Brookfield, and have them do the alignment. They work on a lot of track cars, and know all the pluses and minuses. They will even put you in the driver's seat during the alignment so that the weight balance is as it would be on the track.

I'm in the process of taking my own advice. I spoke with John about this over the phone today, and they will be aligning my car next week. He confirmed what others here have said, basically that those who use their cars in track events may wish to increase the negative camber, even though that does indeed increase the inner tire wear in street driving.

Bob, I decided to consider adjusting my alignment when noticing how much I wore down the outer edge of my left front tire at Putnam this past weekend. Oh, and I took one or two 32nds of center tread off those front tires while driving over 350 track miles there; thanks again for the deal!

 

[1BADNSX]

I'm in the process of taking my own advice. I spoke with John about this over the phone today, and they will be aligning my car next week.

What did he say about toe settings?

 

[nsxtasy]

What did he say about toe settings?

I didn't ask, over the phone. I'll discuss when I take my car in...

 

[nsxtasy]

What did he say about toe settings?

He recommended leaving them stock, which we did.

For the camber, he recommended increasing them to around 1.5 degrees front and 2.0 rear, rather than maxing them out. That's what we did, also.

They did the alignment with me sitting in the car, which is their normal procedure and does make a difference in the settings.

 

[1BADNSX]

Stock 94+ or 91? When I talked to John some time ago, he agreed with my recommendations of around 3 mm out (front) and 3 mm in (rear).

Ken, what were your actual after numbers?

 

[nsxtasy]

Stock 94+ or 91? When I talked to John some time ago, he agreed with my recommendations of around 3 mm out (front) and 3 mm in (rear).

Are you worrying about the difference of 0.5 mm in the front, or the difference of 1.0 mm in the rear? Either way, we're just not talking huge differences here, not worth a "he said, he said" argument. (The factory recommendations for total toe are 3.5 mm front, 4.0 mm rear for the revised recommendation, and 6.0 mm rear for the original recommendation.)

what were your actual after numbers?

Total toe -0.14 inch (-3.6 mm) front, +0.18 inch (+4.6 mm) rear.

 

[1BADNSX]

Are you worrying about the difference of 0.5 mm in the front, or the difference of 1.0 mm in the rear?

Neither, I’m worried about the frequently recommended 6 mm in the rear which I believe is excessive. Based on your settings, John agrees.

Bob

 

[nsxtasy]

We really didn't discuss the difference between the original and revised specs.

My car is aligned in between the two.

 

[Q]

This is all good info. I'll be ready to get her aligned in the next week or so.

 

[wilsonp]

Your front and rear toe aren't both negative, are they? I thought they were opposite...

 

[nsxtasy]

Your front and rear toe aren't both negative, are they? I thought they were opposite...

Oops!!! My error.

Post now edited...

 

[DCNSX]

A previous poster mentioned rotating the tires (his were R compounds). But I don't think I can do this with my directional street tires. (on OEM 7-spokers)

I am experiencing significant wear on the inside of both rear tires( and always have experienced this). I'm aligned at the '94 specs. My driving includes 6-8 track days per year. Otherwise just weekend use. Any ideas to help the inside rear wear? Can the rears be swapped?? (I don't think so). You'd think that with track use, there would be more wear on the outer edges.

Thoughts, everyone?

 

[Q]

Can the rears be swapped?? (I don't think so). You'd think that with track use, there would be more wear on the outer edges.

Thoughts, everyone?

If you have uni-directional tires, then no, you can't swap rears. In my experience the NSX wears on the rear inside edges because of the negative camber. A '94 stock alignment specs should alleviate some of the wear problem, as it's not as aggressive as the '91 spec. What tires are you using? That could be the culprit, as some wear REALLY fast on the inside edge while others do not.

 

[DCNSX]

They're Yokos. AVS, maybe? My tread is down pretty bad on the insides- if I don't pass NC inspection, I'll have to get new tires, but I'd like to get at least one more track event out of them first. hmm- maybe I'll get new tires/inspection AFTER my next track event at VIR in late June.

Is it possible to buy non- unidirectional tires for the rear that could then be swapped?

 

[OLDE GUY]

A previous poster mentioned rotating the tires (his were R compounds).....Any ideas to help the inside rear wear? Can the rears be swapped?? (I don't think so). You'd think that with track use, there would be more wear on the outer edges. Thoughts, everyone?

It depends on what "swapped" means :wink: First of all, OEM Yokos or Bridgestones can't be swapped by any definition since they are corner specific, as you know.

I was speaking of dis-mounting a uni-directional tire from a left side wheel and re-mounting it on the right side wheel which can be done. This is most often done when track useage has worn down the outside of the left front tire much more than the inside. By remounting the tires on the opposite wheels, effectively the outside of the left front tire becomes the inside of the tire when mounted on the right wheel - and vice versa. So you can do this with your rear tires and effectively your worn inside edges will then be on the outsides - but this would not be good for your June track event since the very worn insides of the right tires will become the outsides when on the left side - which takes the most abuse on the track. But for street driving it would work.


I don't mean taking the left front wheel+tire and putting them on the right front spindle which is what I term "swapping". The latter shouldn't be done because most modern sports tires are uni-directional - so they would be running backwards which means that they wouldn't pump water when the road is wet. However, when a racetrack is dry some drivers do it anyhow to get a little more wear from their tires. But don't try it with OEM tires since the handling will deteriorate! Ask me how I know :wink:

Confused :wink:

 

[nsxtasy]

I am experiencing significant wear on the inside of both rear tires( and always have experienced this). I'm aligned at the '94 specs.

I don't understand this. It's common (even with a proper alignment) to experience significant wear on the inside of the front tires. Not the rears. My rears have always worn evenly across the tread.