Alignment - Camber Out of Spec

[jerryho]

I recently installed Eibach springs and Bilstein Shocks on my 91.
GOt an alignment today and got the rear camber at 2-degrees on both side and the front at 1.5-degrees. Both front and back is out of spec.

In the past I had 2 degrees camber on other Hondas and they don't appear to wear out the inside of the tires too much. I'm just wondering if I'm goign to be OK with the NSX or if I should look into a camber kit.

Thanks.

 

[Briank]

The front spec. Camber: is -20 min +/- 30min (-0.33 deg +/- 0.5 deg) so 1.5 is out of spec. on the front. What did they say at the at the shop. If you can't get it adjusted to spec somthing must be bent or worn out.

The spec for the rear Camber: -1 deg 30 min +/- 30min (-1.5 deg +/- 0.5 deg) On the rear the toe is what wears out tires.

See the FAQ http://www.nsxprime.com/FAQ/TireWheel/alignment.htm

 

[sjs]

Those numbers are not severe, but you will of course experience somewhat more wear on the inside than you would with less negative, and the NSX is notorious for tire wear to begin with. If you run the OEM tires you may get as little as 5k miles on the rear and double that up front.

Unfortunately there is no camber kit for the NSX. The rear is already based on an exocentric pivot an no one has marketed a mod for it.

 

[sjs]

...On the rear the toe is what wears out tires.

That could be misleading. Toe wears tires faster overall, but camber is what wears them unevenly, and since once the inside is gone you're done, it negative camber is at least as big of a factor as toe. Decreasing either will extend overall tire life, but decreasing camber will make them wear more evenly as well, which better addresses the original question.

 

[Briank]

That could be misleading. Toe wears tires faster overall, but camber is what wears them unevenly, and since once the inside is gone you're done, it negative camber is at least as big of a factor as toe. Decreasing either will extend overall tire life, but decreasing camber will make them wear more evenly as well, which better addresses the original question.

Yes that could be misleading but not wrong, the Toe wears out the rear tires fast. the camber just gets you to the wear bars on the inside first. After the tire class action law suit on tire wear the only spec that was changed was the rear toe.

 

[sjs]

I think you missed my point. You stated flatly that the camber was within spec. You then stated flatly that "On the rear the toe is what wears out tires." Any reasonable person not otherwise informed can only conclude that if you are correct then the sole cause of excessive wear is the toe, and that simply is not true. Further more, his question was specifically about uneven tire wear due to camber. "In the past I had 2 degrees camber on other Hondas and they don't appear to wear out the inside of the tires too much." Your statement dismisses his concerns and focuses entirely on toe.

So at best your statement was incomplete, and at worst it was wrong within the context of the question.

I'm not trying to slam you, but people come here for information and we all try to be as accurate, and on-point with their question, as possible. If he wants more total miles from a set of tires, then either or both settings can be brought closer to zero, with camber addressing the issue he initially raised.

 

[Briank]

SJS

Yes there is lot of mis-information here.

Toe causes the tires to wear out. Camber causes them to wear unevenly. Un even wear is an annoyance, wearing out is an expense. As I stated, jerryho's camber was in spec. in the rear and out of spec in the front per the spec's found here in the FAQ.

Briank

 

[Larry Bastanza]

jerryho,

Welcome to the world of lowering an NSX!! Mine is -.8 negative in the front and that after some meticulous caster adjustments to get it there. You really need an accomodating alignment guy. The other thing you will realize over time is that the Eibachs can sag a little and make the whole thing worse. I just checked and I now have a 1/2" hieght differnce right to left. Mine are 3 years/17K miles old.

I am thinking about going back to the stock springs and bilsteins on the lower perch in the near future (winter update)

HTH,
LarryB

 

[sjs]

SJS

Yes there is lot of mis-information here.

Toe causes the tires to wear out. Camber causes them to wear unevenly. Un even wear is an annoyance, wearing out is an expense. As I stated, jerryho's camber was in spec. in the rear and out of spec in the front per the spec's found here in the FAQ.

Briank

It seems we're spinning our wheels here but what the heck, I'll bite one more time. I don't see how you can separate uneven wear from "wearing out ". When any portion of the tread gets down to the underwear, the tire is worn out. So if you have lots of negative camber then it most definitely will be "wearing out" sooner than with less, regardless of toe. So how can you possibly say that it is only toe which "causes the tires to wear out"???

If there is any mis-information on this subject it certainly is not from me. I'm trying to be specific and precise while your answers seem to be general and incomplete. That was no big deal, we all short-cut answers from time to time, but that you continue to debate something so straight forward is curious.

 

[NSX G-Force]

My rear right camber is -2.0 with original spring. Been to 4 alignment shop, they can't fix it.
One of the alignment shop adjust the toe to reduce the tyre wear, end up making it worst. unstable at high speed, and eat up my tyre even faster!
New Bridgestone G3 tyre put on and align it again from another shop. They found out the alignment, too much "toe in"!
The toe is properly re-adjust and now much stable at high speed! Tyre wear reduce as well.

 

[Briank]

It seems we're spinning our wheels here but what the heck, I'll bite one more time. I don't see how you can separate uneven wear from "wearing out ". When any portion of the tread gets down to the underwear, the tire is worn out. So if you have lots of negative camber then it most definitely will be "wearing out" sooner than with less, regardless of toe. So how can you possibly say that it is only toe which "causes the tires to wear out"???

If there is any mis-information on this subject it certainly is not from me. I'm trying to be specific and precise while your answers seem to be general and incomplete. That was no big deal, we all short-cut answers from time to time, but that you continue to debate something so straight forward is curious.

Hey I guess we can agree to disagree.

 

[prova4re]

I have neg 2 camber on the rears and only got 10.000 klms on my so3s.

 

[DanO]

Hey I guess we can agree to disagree.

It is not logical to disagree with sjs on this issue.

Any alignment setting which leads to uneven tire wear also shortens tire life since a tire that wears unevenly will wear out faster than a tire which is wearing evenly—this is obvious.

Camber contributes to uneven tire wear
Toe contributes to uneven tire wear
The combination of toe and camber leads to uneven tire wear

Camber or toe or both lead to uneven tire wear and therefore accelerate tire wear.

-2 degrees is excessive on the street and will lead to uneven and therefore accelerated tire wear. This wear may be mitigated by decreasing negative camber, toe or both.

Now, if you want to debate which contributes to more uneven tire wear: camber or toe for a specific setting, then I guess there is room there for a good discussion.

DanO

 

[Andrie Hartanto]

Re: Re: Alignment - Camber Out of Spec

Unfortunately there is no camber kit for the NSX. The rear is already based on an exocentric pivot an no one has marketed a mod for it.

Actually, comptech offer front camber kit. My guess is it will work on the rear as well, just by visual inspection. I have a rear control arm laying around and will try to see if it will work on the rear or not soon.

 

[sjs]

... Toe contributes to uneven tire wear...
DanO

DanO, before we get to the discussion of relative wear form toe and camber, I've long debated in my own mind (but hopefully not out loud) whether or not toe in/out causes uneven wear, rather than just accelerated wear. I always land on the side of the seemingly obvious (simplest) conclusion that as the tire tacks down the road angled slightly different from the direction of travel, then entire surface of the tread is evenly scrubbed. The only explanation I can come up with for it doing otherwise is that the leading most edge may take a bit more abuse as it digs in, but I would expect the rest to be even. Common RWD cars that run toe in and nearly zero camber up front seem to exhibit even tire wear, which tends to support my conclusion.

Of course with NSX OEM tires there is the added factor of scrub built into the carcass design in the opposite direction of the toe.

 

[Briank]

Hey DanO

Welcome to the discussion!!

My general idea here is if a tire rolls straight down the road there will be very little wear no matter if it is tilted a degree or two i.e.; camber but no toe. But when you run "toe" the two tires are always turning against each other so for the car to go down the road some thing has to give and its the tire. The amount of scrub with the original 6mm of rear toe on the NSX would eat tires in 3000 miles or less. With the reduced NSX toe setting with no change in camber you might get 6000 miles. That looks like a 100% improvement to me. It is very unlikely that a reduction in camber would yeald anywhere neer that improvement in tire life. I still stand by my opinion "Toe wears out tires" But as we all know opinion's are like a@#holes every one has one.

Briank

 

[Larry Bastanza]

Andrie,

Very interesting about the camber kit. CompTech makes it and sells it as a way to get MORE negative camber up front for race prepped cars. I have been thinking the same thing about using them installed backwards to get more positive camber for lowered street cars.

I did not have a chance to check the bore sizes in the front a-arms vs. rear a-arms, and I also do not know if the offset in the "standard" camber kit offered is right for decearing negative camber front and rear if they are mounted 180 degrees opposite the original plan.

Need more hours in a day!!

LarryB

 

[sjs]

Re: Re: Re: Alignment - Camber Out of Spec

Actually, comptech offer front camber kit. My guess is it will work on the rear as well, just by visual inspection. I have a rear control arm laying around and will try to see if it will work on the rear or not soon.

Really? The last time this came up a few months back I looked at the item on their site and it appeared to be was something to reduce camber changes when cornering, or something of that sort, but not to extend the range of static adjustment. Perhaps I was mistaken or this is something new?

Either way, I think the focus was on the rear since that's where it gets really bad. But if CT has something that might be adapted to the rear then it would be worth a look.

 

[sjs]

OK, those aren't what I saw before. They are typical offset/eccentric replacement bushings. As such, I think they can be used as-is up front to adjust toe in either direction. By simply rotating them 180 degrees from the recommended position before locking them down, you should move camber closer to zero.

http://solar.innercite.com/comptech/160030.html

Later that evening at home...

Ah, I missed a key point in my quick look at the CT stuff (as in I didn't bother to read the caption. ) As others of you already realized, they offset the location of the ball joints rather than moving the inner pivot point in or out. Same effective change in arm length but from the opposite end. Very cool. So yes, it would be nice if they worked in back as well. I just looked, and increasing the range of the existing rear adjuster would run into clearance issues requiring other mods. Possible, but not simple.