AEM EMS or FIC.

[MetalSpikeRacing]

Well its been almost a year since I tried to turbo the NSX with the help of Rob.
As of this thread:
http://www.nsxprime.com/forums/showthread.php?t=133723&highlight=turbo+project

But I ended up spending a good amount of money on a full service for the engine, gaskets, seals, headers, and everything else to bring the engine to a top notch state, The money for the Turbo build was spent.

But now that is time to the car to sleep, I think is time to go back to my turbo plan again.
The thing is that before I knew I was going to have to refresh the engine I end up buying an AEM EMS system and a GT40R twin scroll turbo, and here is where the questions come in:


I will be going with Angus's AP-X turbo kit, but I want to know what do you guys think, Sould I go full stand alone(EMS) or should I use the FIC?
The car will see about two track days at month.

FIC:
I am leaning towards the FIC because of the simple idea that is user friendly, ok,maybe not the right word,
I like the idea that it wont affect things like idle and maybe it would be enough to control the parameters need it for street/track car?.

AEM EMS:
Well, this one I already have, I guess everything goes back to the question planted for the FIC just inverted.
Is the AEM EMS overkill for a track/street car?
And again, the idle control on EMS's is always a pain on cold starts.

What other parameters would I need for a weekend road racer car that the FIC wouldnt be able to control?

I come from DMS's where we use the two step, launch control and such to take advantage of the AWD platform. Things I wont need on the NSX.

Please give your input and experiance with both systems, I would really aprecciate that.

-MSR

 

[NSXCessive]

My car is '00 with freshly installed SOS S/C. I was over at Rob's as well mainly to get the car on the dyno@Magnus. I was initially having problems with getting the car to run right with the F/IC, if AEM has a full standalone for ODBII then I would have gone that route. EMS gives you everything the Fuel Ignition Controller does and way more options and features. Even though I went F/IC for ODBII I would suggest AEM EMS over the F/IC. You can run EMS on a OBDII car but might involve some extra work, we now it works because Rob did it on his 3.2L in his car.

In the end with the help of different people and Rob/Magnus's shops I managed to figure out the problems I was having, she seems to be running just fine now with F/IC.

 

[MetalSpikeRacing]

My car is '00 with freshly installed SOS S/C. I was over at Rob's as well mainly to get the car on the dyno@Magnus. I was initially having problems with getting the car to run right with the F/IC, if AEM has a full standalone for ODBII then I would have gone that route. EMS gives you everything the Fuel Ignition Controller does and way more options and features. Even though I went F/IC for ODBII I would suggest AEM EMS over the F/IC. You can run EMS on a OBDII car but might involve some extra work, we now it works because Rob did it on his 3.2L in his car.

In the end with the help of different people and Rob/Magnus's shops I managed to figure out the problems I was having, she seems to be running just fine now with F/IC.

Thanks,
What was the problem?
Is the car fine on start ups and idle?
I am assuming Marco was the one tuning then?

Marco was the one that tune the EMS on my DSM, even when we made bucket loads of power, start up was never optimal neither was idle.

That is something I am not willing to sacrifice on the NSX if I am only going for a mild turbo set up.

I think is question of fiding a good tuner here in Toronto that will take the time to set up start up and idle properly.

Are the guys running EMS having issues with idle and cold start ups?

-MSR

 

[Cody@LoveFab]

A good tuner can sort the idle and tune. We have the same climates and cars that leave our shop generally start and idle like a factory NSX, even with 1000cc injectors.

Toronto isn't too far if you guys want to set something up... email me if you do.

 

[MetalSpikeRacing]

You're right MI is not that far,
Once I have everything done, I would probably drive it to you.
That is if I can't find a good tuner here.

Well, seems like I am keeping the EMS in the end.
Thank you guys.

-MSR

 

[jorligan]

My car is '00 with freshly installed SOS S/C. I was over at Rob's as well mainly to get the car on the dyno@Magnus. I was initially having problems with getting the car to run right with the F/IC, if AEM has a full standalone for ODBII then I would have gone that route. EMS gives you everything the Fuel Ignition Controller does and way more options and features. Even though I went F/IC for ODBII I would suggest AEM EMS over the F/IC. You can run EMS on a OBDII car but might involve some extra work, we now it works because Rob did it on his 3.2L in his car.

In the end with the help of different people and Rob/Magnus's shops I managed to figure out the problems I was having, she seems to be running just fine now with F/IC.

How did Rob run an EMS on his OBDII car, did he change the wired throttle?

 

[Cozmo]

You should've posted this in the FI forum. I'm in the middle of changing from the FIC to the EMS. I'm going to get the EMS tuned tomorrow morning. If all goes well my FIC will be up for sale soon.

The EMS will certainly let you log a lot more things if you want certain data from a track session. It also lets you add the serial guages that can tell you all kinds of things and easily change between them. You lose your traction control (if you care).

The FIC on an OBD1 car is kind of guesswork since you can't see the fuel trims so you're making a fuel map and hoping it is right, then letting the stock ECU adjust it. If you don't do it perfect it acts all kinds of weird and it is difficult to see why since you can't see what the stock ECU is doing.

I see you decided to use the EMS that you already had. The fact that you already had one eliminates one of the FIC's main advantages (price).

 

[MetalSpikeRacing]

Rob, did a 3.2 engine swap.

Cozmo, what do you mean you cant see the fuel trims? isnt that the main porpusse of the FIC? to create a fuel map?
I though the only problem with the obd1 was that ignition had to double check while tuning?

What about the other guys running Turbos and FIC have you guys run into any trouble with the FIC? How do you like it?

-MSR

 

[jorligan]

My car is '00 with freshly installed SOS S/C. I was over at Rob's as well mainly to get the car on the dyno@Magnus. I was initially having problems with getting the car to run right with the F/IC, if AEM has a full standalone for ODBII then I would have gone that route. EMS gives you everything the Fuel Ignition Controller does and way more options and features. Even though I went F/IC for ODBII I would suggest AEM EMS over the F/IC. You can run EMS on a OBDII car but might involve some extra work, we now it works because Rob did it on his 3.2L in his car.

In the end with the help of different people and Rob/Magnus's shops I managed to figure out the problems I was having, she seems to be running just fine now with F/IC.

I have FIC on my OBD2 98 NSX with a Lovefab turbo on a built motor. No start up issues and idles smoothly. Drove 3000 miles to Vegas, averaged 30 mpg at 75 mph on cruise, not so good when it was me driving. Clearly the tuner is key and with the FIC, there should be minimal issues with start up or idle as compared to stock.

For OBD1, look at the Cozmo saga, go EMS.

 

[Plastics]

I have a OBD1(94) with a SOS S/C ,and a built motor as well. While I am now running a Fcon Pro,I did have the standalone and F/IC on my car.The F/IC was no more than an experiment by Chris at SOS. Both units started and idled perfectly.

My strong advice given you are in Toronto---take it to Cody. He has knowledge of the NSX and experence to deal with issues such as boost cut(F/IC),cold start and the nagging issue of "check engine light". A good ,capable tuner makes all the difference.

 

[MetalSpikeRacing]

I have a OBD1(94) with a SOS S/C ,and a built motor as well. While I am now running a Fcon Pro,I did have the standalone and F/IC on my car.The F/IC was no more than an experiment by Chris at SOS. Both units started and idled perfectly.

My strong advice given you are in Toronto---take it to Cody. He has knowledge of the NSX and experence to deal with issues such as boost cut(F/IC),cold start and the nagging issue of "check engine light". A good ,capable tuner makes all the difference.

Is that what you did, you end up taking it to Cody?
How long was the drive?

I am cosidering taking it to him once I have the car ready.

-MSR

 

[Plastics]

No...my car was built in Phoenix by Chris Wilson, Science of Speed. Had I kept the AEM unit on my car, Cody was my back up plan for tweeking the unit.

Regardless of what you put behind the wheels, a good tuner is the key.

 

[ScienceofSpeed]

The AEM EMS is the best solution for 1991-94 NSX, especially for turbocharged applications.

The AEM F/IC is fine to use for supercharged applications as long you understand that it may require follow up tuning for closed loop and transitional tuning. This is because the closed loop fuel trims (where the O2 sensors are monitored by the ECU) cannot be monitored like on an OBD2 car. Closed loop deals with idle, part throttle, and very low load areas only - before the engine sees boost.

It's been our experience that most tuners working with OBD1 cars will prefer a full stand alone engine management system - and ultimately, the results, especially drivability, is better with full stand alone on OBD1 cars. Choose the solution that your tuner is most comfortable with and the results will be the best.

This is a one time investment - the car should only need to be tuned once - so make the best choice the first time.

regards,
-- Chris

 

[hardcore-nsx]

I run the Full EMS. My car idles and runs like stock. Cody built my whole set-up. If he's close to you. I recomend you take it to him....

 

[MetalSpikeRacing]

After doing some deep searching I end up keeping the EMS, once everything is all set up I will drive it to Cody for him to do the tune and meth install.

Thank you everyone for your input, it really help me to make my decision.

-MSR

 

[na1tor]

well marco @ magnus tuned my ems 2 years and almost 30,000km's later plenty of cold days, a stock motor making just shy of 500whp she idles and starts up just like a bone stock nsx does! even with the a/c running its perfect!



and as i recall with your dsm your issue was a faulty idle valve and thats why it didnt work

my .02 marco can tune anything you throw at him!!!!

 

[MetalSpikeRacing]

Ther you are , where you have you been?
Pick up ya phone LOL!!

Nope, It was'nt the Idle valve.
He was just too busy to finish it that winter.

-MSR

 

[NSXCessive]

Thanks,
What was the problem?
Is the car fine on start ups and idle?
I am assuming Marco was the one tuning then?

Marco was the one that tune the EMS on my DSM, even when we made bucket loads of power, start up was never optimal neither was idle.

That is something I am not willing to sacrifice on the NSX if I am only going for a mild turbo set up.

I think is question of fiding a good tuner here in Toronto that will take the time to set up start up and idle properly.

Are the guys running EMS having issues with idle and cold start ups?

-MSR

Hi Sorry I didn't check this thread back until now my bad :redface:

Yes Marco did the final tune on my car, we had some issues with ping/knock I'm telling you I was ready to pull my hair out between lack of info from SOS and lack of info on using & tuning the F/IC. Apparently Marco was pulling out too much timing in believing that pulling more would make the car stop pinging and in reality was making the car ping in high rpm. I also had a leaky seal on the Kenne Bell unit right off the bat Chris@SOS took care of me there.

So we decide to not continue trying to tune anything pretty much feeling really lost on what the problem was I pulled my baby off the dyno and went back Chris. He gave me some stuff to check, so back to Rob Magro who originally did the installation to review these things. So after checking everything... everything was in check there. So called Chris again and we then found out a crucial piece of info that I wish I knew before we started tuning because I did 2 dyno sessions that were literally waste of time and not to mention good $$$ between the Mechanic and Tuner constantly. Chris said pulling back more than -10 Degrees of timing on the F/IC will essentially cause the factory ECU to cancel the retard all together, and right there we found the major problem. :biggrin: This is where the EMS is champ, give it timing and you won't be fighting the factory ECU in closed or open loop either.

For the last tune not sure off the top of my head where the timing was left in the rpm range but it was well forward of -10 degrees but she has been running like a champ a bit on the rich side but I will have to re-tune again especially if I decide to intercool it later.

As for the start-up and idle I never had a problem with that at all. Chris said he sent me the F/IC pre-loaded with a base dyno tune he says came from similar 3.2L car like mine. Mine runs like stock at idle I had Marco tweak for mid part throttle as best he could. I still do however get a glitch at times which feels like a split second loss of power when engine is cold and getting warmed up. I'm guessing going from open to closed loop modes? I got a couple engine lights after the last tune, but haven't seen one since. I was getting random misfire codes during the ping/knocking problem I also opted out the new plugs in the kit, for another new set of plugs. But after figuring out the pulling too much timing problem the original plugs were fine and my ping/knocking resolved.

You mentioned optimal idle/mid throttle issues I believe as for the EMS in the NSX, your Tuner should do part throttle runs for your tune and drive the car on the road to simulate real on the road driving. Like me you might have to return a couple times to the tuner to get her ironed out to your satisfaction.

A good tuner can sort the idle and tune. We have the same climates and cars that leave our shop generally start and idle like a factory NSX, even with 1000cc injectors.

Toronto isn't too far if you guys want to set something up... email me if you do.

Cody I thought you were location in MI so where do you tune in Toronto?

well marco @ magnus tuned my ems 2 years and almost 30,000km's later plenty of cold days, a stock motor making just shy of 500whp she idles and starts up just like a bone stock nsx does! even with the a/c running its perfect!



and as i recall with your dsm your issue was a faulty idle valve and thats why it didnt work

my .02 marco can tune anything you throw at him!!!!

Thanks suggesting Marco and for helping me Rob when I was having problems I owe you! Yes I agree... Marco can tune anything you throw at him