Advice on tire strategy for occasional track use

[jwmelvin]

At the risk of asking for largely repetitive information, I pose the following question. Despite my reading and searching, I feel like your additional input would help.

My car is a '97, with OEM wheels tread with RE010 tires that are five years old and still have plenty of tread.

Track use: I will be attending the NSXPO track days, with two of us driving the car both days. I also plan to make it to Summit Point in November, and would like to make it to a track a few weekends a year.

Street use: I daily drive my NSX, and plan to drive it year round other than when snow is on the ground. I understand that all-season tires are probably necessary for the winter, given the generally cold temperatures around DC, where I live.

Options:
(1) come to NSXPO with my RE010's and see what happens. They may not last too long after that; but maybe that's okay because they are pretty old and I could stand new tires. Ideally I would get in NSXPO and a weekend at Summit Point in November and then put all-seasons on for the winter (I'm leaning toward Continental ExtremeContact DWS for the winter.) Then I can pick some summer tires next spring.

(2) get a set of track wheels and tires and use them to drive to NSXPO (~500 miles round trip) and other track days. If I do this, then my RE010's will either have to be swapped with all-seasons for the winter or I would need a third set of wheels.

Questions:
(a) any thoughts on option (1) versus option (2)?

(b) given option 2, I'm thinking Enkei Kojin 17x8 and 17x9 with Nitto NT-01's for the track. I'd like to keep cost as low as possible on the wheels, and see that 17" tires are quite a bit less than 18" tires. Do you think that NT-01's in 205/40-17 & 255/40-17 would be sufficiently balanced? If not, it seems like the other choice is 235/40-17 & 275/40-17. I am not concerned with absolute pace. I only want to get a good feel for the car and would like its balance on the track to be similar to balance on the street.

Last:
In advance of NSXPO, I plan to put on Hawk HP+ pads and SOS braided brake lines, along with some good fluid. I will probably leave the pads on for the street unless they are annoyingly loud (i.e., make noise at all). I appreciate any comments you may have.

Thanks,
Jason

 

[nsxtasy]

Hi Jason,

You've outlined your needs very well.

There's one basic trade-off involved in choosing tires. The more things you want a tire to do, the more there will be some compromise involved; and the corollary is, the less you want to compromise, the more different sets of tires you'll need. To illustrate this point with your NSX, you could get R compound track tires for the racetrack, high-performance summer tires (with varying degrees of performance) for daily driving, and all-season or winter tires for winter use. Or, you could use more than one tire in a given role.

Let's look at each of those categories and uses. For winter use, if you're not driving when there's snow on the pavement, but you are driving when temperatures are below freezing, then yes, all-season tires are a good choice. (And the ExtremeContact DWS is a very good all-season.)

For track driving, the key question is, how much experience do you have and how fast do you need to go? If you have not yet done any track driving (or at least, not more than a handful of events), then I recommend NOT getting R compound track tires. In fact, many organizations that hold track events prohibit the use of R comps by novices. The reason is, R compounds do not provide much warning (squealing) before they lose traction, so you don't know that you're losing control until it's too far gone to recover.

If, as I suspect, you haven't driven all that many track events yet, then I would recommend just doing your first 6-10 track events on street tires (including your current RE010 for NSXPO. Which makes your tire buying situation a lot easier to deal with. Once you build up some experience on the street tires, THEN you can think about whether you want to take the step up to R compound track tires for track-only use. (Remember that they have downsides, too, in treadlife, cost, wet performance, etc. that make them inadvisable for routine street use.)

If you want to enjoy the high performance that your NSX is capable of while driving on streets and highways, then I recommend either the stock RE010 tire, or one of the "extreme performance" tires. You have been using the RE010, so you're aware of its advantages, particularly in its crisp handling; it's still available in your stock sizes. For the stock 16"/17" wheels, here are the choices in extreme performance tires:

Toyo Proxes R1R 205/45-16 and 245/40-17
Kumho Ecsta XS 215/45-16 and either 245/40-17 or 255/40-17
Falken Azenis RT-615K 215/45-16 and 255/40-17

In advance of NSXPO, I plan to put on Hawk HP+ pads and SOS braided brake lines, along with some good fluid. I will probably leave the pads on for the street unless they are annoyingly loud (i.e., make noise at all). I appreciate any comments you may have.

I really like the HP+ for a combination of street use and track use, and have used several dozen sets on my NSX and other cars. Mine have never squealed, although some folks have had noise issues with them. The only downside is that they dust a lot, so you'll want to keep washing your wheels periodically so the dust doesn't stick (which it will after a while).

There is absolutely no need for stainless brake lines on the NSX. The stock brake lines work just fine. The one advantage people claim for the stainless brake lines is that they cure a spongy brake pedal, but I've never seen an NSX with a spongy brake pedal. I replaced the brake lines on my NSX after about 13K actual track miles, not because the pedal was spongy (it never was), but just as a matter of routine precaution.

HTH - feel free to ask more questions.

 

[jwmelvin]

Excellent, thank you so much.

If, as I suspect, you haven't driven all that many track events yet, then I would recommend just doing your first 6-10 track events on street tires (including your current RE010 for NSXPO.

You are exactly correct. I have not driven on a track, other than karting one time. I have done a bit of autocrossing about twenty years ago (in my first car, a Porsche 914). I think after posting my message above, I found this advice in the wiki. And it makes perfect sense to me.

If you want to enjoy the high performance that your NSX is capable of while driving on streets and highways, then I recommend either the stock RE010 tire, or one of the "extreme performance" tires.

Yes, I suspect that is where I'm headed. When I see what condition my tires are in after NSXPO and a weekend at Summit Point in November, I will have a strategy. I suspect I will put all-seasons on the stock wheels for the winter. As you say, I'm not interested in crippling the car with junk tires, so it will get good ("extreme performance") tires for summer weather.

For the stock 16"/17" wheels, here are the choices in extreme performance tires:

This is exactly why I will likely move to 17" wheels for my summer tires. It opens up a few more choices of tires (and my stock rims are pretty beat up). I don't think I can stomach the expense of the RE010's when there seem to be other options that are about as good for a lot less money. Does anyone know if Bridgestone plans to expand the RE11A selection to include a front tire for the NSX? That would be another nice option.

I really like the HP+ for a combination of street use and track use,

That's the pad I went with. Ben at Daisy Import Auto Care will have my car for 2-3 weeks to do all the usual things (TB/WP/etc.) and prepare it for track days.

There is absolutely no need for stainless brake lines on the NSX.

Well, that ship has sailed. All the parts are ready to go on the car. But I appreciate the advice.

 

[nsxtasy]

This is exactly why I will likely move to 17" wheels for my summer tires. It opens up a few more choices of tires (and my stock rims are pretty beat up).

Another good fitment is 17" front and 18" rear. Either way, you'll want 215/40-17 front tires. In the rear, 255/40-17 for the 17:, or 255/35-18 for the 18". Your extreme performance tire options are the Dunlop Direzza ZII, Yokohama Advan Neova AD08R, and Falken Azenis RT-615K.

Does anyone know if Bridgestone plans to expand the RE11A selection to include a front tire for the NSX? That would be another nice option.

Its predecessor, the RE-11, was available in a 205/45-16 front, but they haven't announced that size for the RE11A. I wouldn't count on it.

Well, that ship has sailed. All the parts are ready to go on the car. But I appreciate the advice.

As I mentioned in the other topic, I would have replied sooner, but I just plain overlooked this topic. Sorry!

 

[jwmelvin]

Another good fitment is 17" front and 18" rear. Either way, you'll want 215/40-17 front tires. In the rear, 255/40-17 for the 17:, or 255/35-18 for the 18". Your extreme performance tire options are the Dunlop Direzza ZII, Yokohama Advan Neova AD08R, and Falken Azenis RT-615K.

The Falkens aren't available in __/35R18, and 18" overall seem more limited and more expensive. That's the only reason I suggested 17" rears. I accept that 18" probably look better. Plus, if I do end up going to more dedicated track tires, the 18s are really limited (none seem to be available in streetable designs).

Its predecessor, the RE-11, was available in a 205/45-16 front, but they haven't announced that size for the RE11A. I wouldn't count on it.

That's too bad, but at least options exist.

As I mentioned in the other topic, I would have replied sooner, but I just plain overlooked this topic. Sorry!

Your help needs no apology! I have learned so much from you (your legacy of posts) in just a few short weeks. Thank you.

One additional question: how do you feel about a 205 front with 255 rear, for the track or generally? If I get to the point where track tires are appropriate, that would be the sizes of NT-01's. Going with your normal recommendation would mean a Toyo R888. Now that I think about it and look, neither is available in 16" fronts. But I'm curious if you have thoughts about the 205 + 255 mix and whether it would affect balance more generally.

Thanks again.

 

[nsxtasy]

The Falkens aren't available in __/35R18, and 18" overall seem more limited and more expensive.

They're available in 265/35-18 which would work. I generally prefer 255/35-18 for the later NSX, but 265/35-18 should work too, without problems.

Plus, if I do end up going to more dedicated track tires, the 18s are really limited (none seem to be available in streetable designs).

Track tire sizing for the NSX is a problem, because - other than the 15"/16" sizes, which work great on the '91-96 NSX but I don't think fit over the '97+ brakes - there aren't a whole lot of choices in the sizes that are common among street tires. Some folks get overwide tires (such as 235/40-17 and 275/40-17), which will rub on full lock, but if you're only using them on the track, that may not be a significant issue.

One choice in R comps, if you want to mount them on your stock 16"/17" wheels - and I've always enjoyed using somewhat beat-up stock wheels for track use - is the Kumho Ecsta V710, which is available in your stock sizes of 215/45-16 and 245/40-17.

But if you're going to wait a while before getting into R comps, then you've got time. And maybe some new tires or new sizes will be introduced between now and then, so there's a benefit in waiting.

One additional question: how do you feel about a 205 front with 255 rear, for the track or generally? If I get to the point where track tires are appropriate, that would be the sizes of NT-01's. Going with your normal recommendation would mean a Toyo R888. Now that I think about it and look, neither is available in 16" fronts. But I'm curious if you have thoughts about the 205 + 255 mix and whether it would affect balance more generally.

205/40-17 with 255/40-17 shouldn't rub and shouldn't cause problems for the TCS, so it should work. While getting a slightly narrower front and a slightly wider rear may not be optimal (because it may make the car understeer more), the effect should be pretty minimal. Besides, sometimes your choices are limited so you go with it.

If I had to choose between a 205/40-17 and 255/40-17 combo vs a 235/40-17 and 275/40-17 combo, I guess it would depend on several things. For example, the rubbing of the latter combo would be a problem if you had to drive them on the street, not on the track. So if you had to use them on the street as well, you might be better off with the 205/40-17 and 255/40-17 combo.

 

[jwmelvin]

They're available in 265/35-18 which would work.

Great. I must have misunderstood, thinking that 265 would only work on the earlier cars for some reason.

the Kumho Ecsta V710, which is available in your stock sizes of 215/45-16 and 245/40-17.

I don't know why but those struck me as autocross tires that might not be appropriate for a track. Good to know they are an option. Although I wouldn't want to drive very far on the street to get to a track with them, would I?

For example, the rubbing of the latter combo would be a problem if you had to drive them on the street, not on the track.

This is a huge point in my learning. I don't think I appreciated that a track setup can do without full lock. Thanks.

 

[nsxtasy]

I don't know why but those struck me as autocross tires that might not be appropriate for a track. Good to know they are an option. Although I wouldn't want to drive very far on the street to get to a track with them, would I?

They're actually very good R compound tires for good ol' racetrack driving. One of the very best, in fact. But they will wear quickly, even a bit quicker than some of the other R compounds.

Getting to the track with track tires - any track tires - is always a dilemma, if you can't fit the track tires inside the car. (You might be able to do that with the 205/40-17 though; the only really questionable fit is putting a front tire behind the passenger seat.) Otherwise, you're driving to the track on your track tires. If the track is less than 100 or even 200 miles away, not a big deal at all. As distance increases beyond that, though, it can become an issue. Especially when the tires aren't new so the tread is already partway worn.