A Tale of Suspense(shun)

Joined
24 February 2000
Messages
260
Location
Valhalla, New York
I have been through practically every combination of suspension known to man, so I though I would pass on my experience to help others.

Mine is a 98 Coupe. I’m told that the spring rates are a little higher and the shocks are a little harder on a coupe, but for the sake of this discussion I will assume that all 97+ (except Zanardi, Type S and Type R) are the same. For reference purposes Dali Racing has a good set of charts located here:

http://www.daliracing.com/v666-5/catalog/suspension/more_springs_matrix.cfm

The combinations I describe below are listed in the order that I installed them.

1) Stock Shocks/Stock Springs – (cost = $0). While the stock setup rides and handles good, the ride height is too high (SUV Look).

2) Stock Shocks/Eibach Springs – (cost = $300 + install). Referring to the Spring Comparison Table in the above link, these are progressive rate springs that start out softer than stock and end up harder. As a result they give an excellent ride. They seem to handle a little better than stock probably because of the lower center of gravity. However, in my opinion they are way too low. I was always scraping over driveways and road bumps.

3) Bilstein Shocks/Stock Springs on upper perch - (cost = $530 + install). Referring to the Compression/Rebound Table in the above link, these are progressive rate shocks that are much harder than stock. They did give a decent ride unless you hit high frequency bumps like sewer caps, expansion joints, and chewed up road surfaces. However, the ride height was too high (SUV Look). Handling was on par with stock, except it was a little less confidence inspiring then when the ride height was lower.

4) Bilstein Shocks/Stock Springs on Lower perch - (cost = $530 + install). To solve the height problem above, I had the springs reinstalled on the lower perch. This gave an extremely hard ride all the time. I believe that as the Bilsteins are compressed by lowering the ride height (lower perch) they become harder. The biggest problem, however, is that they became noisy, generating squeaks and metallic banging noises. While others have had this problem and some have appeared to have solved it (at least temporarily) I believe that this is an inherent problem in the design of these shocks. Since the perches are movable, they can move on the shock body, which is what I believe creates the noises. Handling was better than on the higher perch, but was unnerving when hitting a bump while cornering, which caused the car to “skip” to the side.

5) HKS Hipermax Coilovers – (cost = $2,100 + install). None of the above improved the handling significantly. However, the HKS are clearly superior on the track including skid pad, autocross, and road course. They reduce unsprung weight which allows them to follow every bump and keep the tire on the surface. They are also height and spring rate adjustable. These truly inspire confidence. However, they feel very choppy while street driving over bumpy roads. You can watch your passenger’s head bounce around over choppy roads. For my taste, these are great for the track, but not so good for street driving.

5) Bilstein Shocks/Tein Springs – (cost = $530 for Bilsteins + $200 for Springs + install) – This combination created what I feel is a perfect ride height (.7” lower in front and 1” lower in rear). It both lowered and leveled the ride height, but has enough ground clearance for most road surfaces. Referring to the Spring Comparison Table in the above link, these are linear rate springs that are 15% stiffer in front and 10% stiffer in rear. This slightly reduces the tendency for over steer. However, this combination suffered the same symptoms described above for the Bilsteins on the lower perch. It seems the Bilstein Shocks don’t know that they are compressed by using the lower perch or a shorter spring, so the results were as described above for the Bilstein Shocks/Stock Springs on Lower perch.

6) Stock Shocks/Tein Springs – (cost = $200 + install) - In my opinion, this is, without a doubt, the best combination for a street driven car that is only tracked infrequently. It handles like the Bilsteins without the “skipping” over bumps when in mid corner. Had I known this from the beginning I could have saved thousands of dollars. It is not only the best combination (in my opinion) for ride height, handling, and comfort, IT IS THE CHEAPEST! Having said that however, I would be tempted to try the KW Variant 3 Suspension described here:
http://www.scienceofspeed.com/products/suspension_performance_products/NSX/KW_Suspension/Variant_3/

Referring to the Coilover Kits Comparison Table in the Dali Racing link above, these are about 22% softer in front and 30% softer in the rear than the HKS Coilovers. This may be enough to provide an acceptable ride on the street while allowing the better track performance provided by coilovers.

Below is a table that summarizes my results. Note, the cost does not include installation. (Sorry, but the table below doesn't import well)

Combination - Cost - Height - Ride - Handling
Stock Shocks/Stock Springs - 0 - Too High - Good - Good
Stock Shocks/Eibach Springs - $300 - Too Low - Excellent - Good
Bilstein Shocks/Stock Springs on upper perch - $550 - Too High - Good - Fair
Bilstein Shocks/Stock Springs on Lower perch - $550 - Good - Fair (Noisy) - Fair
HKS Hipermax Coilovers - $2,100 - Excellent (Adjustable) - Poor - Excellent
Bilstein Shocks/Tein Springs - $730 - Good - Fair (Noisy) - Fair
Stock Shocks/Tein Springs - $200 - Good - Good - Good

Well, that’s my story. I hope it helps some of you looking at suspension alternatives.

Dave.
 
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Nice write-up.

This is why after owning my car for 3 years I am still on the OEM setup. I hate it because it looks like a 4X4 but I like the ride and handling the way it is. Maybe I'll try the Tien springs. I wonder if my shocks need to be replaced. They don't bounce ar anything but they sure are old.

I guess its one of those things that since your already paying the labor you might as well put new ones in.
 
Thanks for the great writeup. I have eibach spring and have considerd adding the bilsteins very soon.
 
Thanks for the great post, Dave.

By any chance, do you remember how much your car dropped with the Stock Shocks/Tein Springs? Do you have any pictures showing the drop? I am running 02+ rims on my '97 and would like to lower it but not by much. I was going with the Bilsteins on lower perch since it's supposed to drop it only about 3/4", but after reading your write-up, I'm very hesitant since I don't the ride to get really harsh.

Anyway, any more info on the stock shocks/tein springs would be greatly appreciated. BTW, I'm assuming your referring to the Tein S.Tech springs?

Thanks again!
 
Thanks for the great post, Dave.

By any chance, do you remember how much your car dropped with the Stock Shocks/Tein Springs? Do you have any pictures showing the drop? I am running 02+ rims on my '97 and would like to lower it but not by much. I was going with the Bilsteins on lower perch since it's supposed to drop it only about 3/4", but after reading your write-up, I'm very hesitant since I don't the ride to get really harsh.

Anyway, any more info on the stock shocks/tein springs would be greatly appreciated. BTW, I'm assuming your referring to the Tein S.Tech springs?

Thanks again!

The Tein S-Tech Springs lower the car .7" in front and 1" in rear. The Bilsteins on the lower perch lower the car about .75" all the way around. As a result the Teins give the car a more level look that I think is much better. I will try to post some pictures.

Also, remember the Bilsteins not only gave a harsh ride (especially on the lower perch) they also made banging and squeaking noises.

Dave.
 
I have been running Bilsteins on the lower perch with stock springs for nearly a year on my 91 and have not experienced any of the issues described here.

The ride is only slightly firmer than with the OEM shocks, the handling is better and I have not heard any noises.....zero.

One of the best mods I have done.
 
6) Stock Shocks/Tein Springs – (cost = $200 + install) - In my opinion, this is, without a doubt, the best combination for a street driven car that is only tracked infrequently.
Well, that’s my story. I hope it helps some of you looking at suspension alternatives.

Dave.

Nice comparo, thanks. But the Type-R ride is pretty awesome too. :wink:
 
I have been running Bilsteins on the lower perch with stock springs for nearly a year on my 91 and have not experienced any of the issues described here.

The ride is only slightly firmer than with the OEM shocks, the handling is better and I have not heard any noises.....zero.

One of the best mods I have done.

From an objective (not subjective) point of view and referring to the Compression/Rebound Table in the link below:

http://www.daliracing.com/v666-5/catalog/suspension/more_springs_matrix.cfm

The Compression/Rebound Rates of the Bilsteins are almost twice the stock shocks. This difference is very noticeable to me and it is most pronounced over expansion joints, manhole covers, chewed up pavement, or other high frequency road imperfections. For my type of driving and the road surfaces I must deal with, the Tein Springs and Stock Shocks provide a clearly superior ride. In addition, I would be hard pressed to achieve more than a marginal performance difference with the Bilsteins, but since street driving is a higher priority than track performance, I am much happier with my current setup then the Bilsteins.

Regarding the noise, see the following link:

http://www.nsxprime.com/forums/showthread.php?t=51103

As you can see, mine is not an isolated case. I still believe that the movable perch is a design flaw that may or may not generate noise. Also, I believe that others may have accepted this as “normal” behavior and ignore it. I drive my car a lot, so any unusual noise is unacceptable.

In any case, ones suspension choice should be based on ones own preferences regarding Street Drivability and Track Performance. There are very few modifications that will address both equally. In addition, the condition of local roads needs to be considered. In the North East with road surfaces chewed up by snow, ice, salt, and trucks, the requirements will be somewhat different than in areas with smooth road surfaces.

Dave.
 
In any case, ones suspension choice should be based on ones own preferences regarding Street Drivability and Track Performance. There are very few modifications that will address both equally. In addition, the condition of local roads needs to be considered. In the North East with road surfaces chewed up by snow, ice, salt, and trucks, the requirements will be somewhat different than in areas with smooth road surfaces.

Dave.

Well said.
 
I have been running Bilsteins on the lower perch with stock springs for nearly a year on my 91 and have not experienced any of the issues described here.

The ride is only slightly firmer than with the OEM shocks, the handling is better and I have not heard any noises.....zero.

:) DITO. I can't second dswartz's opinion either and but I have an explanation for what he experienced. I don't know how it can happen with only going 0.75'' lower but your car was most likely driving on the bump stops letting transfer every single irregularity and also making noise. The Bilstein bump stops are quite long. People who go further and cut lower perches into the Bilstein to go even lower automatically run into this problem. :wink: When do people learn: The NSX doesn't like ultralow. :)

I would be tempted to try the KW Variant 3 Suspension
I have it since two weeks and just finished the height and compression damping, now going over to rebound which will take more time (mountains and German Autobahn). If you really like a comfortable (on long trips) and stable car for the street that IS fast in turns like I do it's one of the best choices if not the best one out there.
 
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:) DITO. I can't second dswartz's opinion either and but I have an explanation for what he experienced. I don't know how it can happen with only going 0.75'' lower but your car was most likely driving on the bump stops letting transfer every single irregularity and also making noise. The Bilstein bump stops are quite long. People who go further and cut lower perches into the Bilstein to go even lower automatically run into this problem. :wink: When do people learn: The NSX doesn't like ultralow. :)

No, it wasn't hitting the bump stops, we checked. Furthermore, the noise happens even over small bumps! We believe that it is caused by the movable perches.


:) I have it since two weeks and just finished the height and compression damping, now going over to rebound which will take more time (mountains and German Autobahn). If you really like a comfortable (on long trips) and stable car for the street that IS fast in turns like I do it's one of the best choices if not the best one out there.

What other suspension system(s) have you used. I would be very interested to hear a comparison of the KW Variant 3 with other suspension systems that have been used on the same car.
 
What other suspension system(s) have you used. I would be very interested to hear a comparison of the KW Variant 3 with other suspension systems that have been used on the same car.

I never went with something Japanese (10+ kg/mm) springs or so because I drive on the street and not on the track and love the car to be very comfortable and soaking up bumps even at the cost of slower turn-in response and a tad more rolling. When I was young TEIN and Co. would have been perfect for me. Hard suspensions make you feel the car going fast but it actually isn't on irregulations. Just to show my changed preferences.

-Eibach/Bilstein: very comfortable but I hated the progressive springs starting with even lower value than stock. The car first rolled then turned-in. Not my cop of tea.
-Zanardi springs/Bilstein: Much better than the above, very comfortable and less initial rolling
-Zanardi springs/Bilstein revalved to about Type R shocks: I don't like headbanging, the car is jumping over bumps and much, too much rebound. Fast to drive but you don't dare to take bumpy corners fast because I feared of jumping off on the bumps. It may work on a flat track but not on jumpy street.
-KW3: independant tunable in a reasonable range, high-speed settings are fixed which is good and safe and the settings by KW are perfect (7 post rig?) I can get the full comfort of Zanardi/Bilstein but tune it a little more to squeeze out more. ;-) very high grip level. You can't tune it to the Type R shocks level but that's fine for me.
 
I want to run 17/18, and try the Tein S. tech springs w/stock shocks. Do I need to install a camber kit?
 
Hey DSWARTZ,

Great pics with the various setups. By any chance, do you have one with the Bilsteins (lower perch) and stock springs? I would be interested in comparing that with the Tein springs and stock shocks.

Thanks!
 
guys just remember one thing....dswartz likes to go fast STRAIGHT!:biggrin:
 
I never went with something Japanese (10+ kg/mm) springs or so because I drive on the street and not on the track and love the car to be very comfortable and soaking up bumps even at the cost of slower turn-in response and a tad more rolling. When I was young TEIN and Co. would have been perfect for me. Hard suspensions make you feel the car going fast but it actually isn't on irregulations. Just to show my changed preferences.

I agree, however the Tein S-Tech are only 15% and 10% (F and R) stiffer than stock, but give what I think is a perfect ride height trade off for both street and track.


-Eibach/Bilstein: very comfortable but I hated the progressive springs starting with even lower value than stock. The car first rolled then turned-in. Not my cop of tea.

I agree, the eibachs were soft on turn in. This was particularly a problem in autocross events. In addition, although I hadn't tried this setup, using both progressive rate springs and progressive rate shocks would even make this worse and may even result in somewhat unpredictable behavior, or at least behavior that is difficult to compensate for.

-Zanardi springs/Bilstein: Much better than the above, very comfortable and less initial rolling

The Tein S-Tech are not as stiff as the Zanardi and would give aneven better ride.

-Zanardi springs/Bilstein revalved to about Type R shocks: I don't like headbanging, the car is jumping over bumps and much, too much rebound. Fast to drive but you don't dare to take bumpy corners fast because I feared of jumping off on the bumps. It may work on a flat track but not on jumpy street.

This exactly what I experienced with Stock Springs on the lower perch with standard Bilsteins and with the shorter Tein Springs on the upper perch of the Bilsteins.

-KW3: independant tunable in a reasonable range, high-speed settings are fixed which is good and safe and the settings by KW are perfect (7 post rig?) I can get the full comfort of Zanardi/Bilstein but tune it a little more to squeeze out more. ;-) very high grip level. You can't tune it to the Type R shocks level but that's fine for me.

The tunability of Coilovers is what I liked best about the HKS Hipermax. For the most part you can tune these to your driving style. I just couldn't tune these to be comfortable on the street.

Having said all that, I too have matured to appreciate street comfort over track performance and have learned to compensate based on the characteristics of the suspension. I think getting the most out of a suspension setup by learning to drive it better is fun. It is also an important learning experience that teaches me how to handle emergency situations on the street.

Thanks for your response.

Dave.
 
Hey DSWARTZ,

Great pics with the various setups. By any chance, do you have one with the Bilsteins (lower perch) and stock springs? I would be interested in comparing that with the Tein springs and stock shocks.

Thanks!

No I don't have a pic of the Bilsteins on the lower perch, however, this setup looked exactly the same as the Teins in front, but the rear was .25" higher. I prefer the slightly more level look of the Teins.
 
guys just remember one thing....dswartz likes to go fast STRAIGHT!:biggrin:

Hey Doc, just remember, I have the REAL Bumble Bee!:cool:

By the way I grew up on Go Karts and have autocrossed for 20 years. I may have taken Limerock's Big Bend backwards a few times in my old LT1 corvette, but I still enjoy high speed turns. :redface:

Drag Racing is an old passion that is much like riding a bike, you never forget how to power shift! The NSX is well suited to drag racing because of the rear weight bias and the best power shifting transmission I have ever driven.:biggrin:
 
Hey DSWARTZ,

Great pics with the various setups. By any chance, do you have one with the Bilsteins (lower perch) and stock springs? I would be interested in comparing that with the Tein springs and stock shocks.

Thanks!
Here is a couple pics of my car with (noisy when cold) Bilteins on the lower perch with stock springs.

2702872532_7efb017e8d_b.jpg


2702072457_35703f3c1a_b.jpg
 
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No, just select the proper widths and offsets (Dali or SOS can help here). I use 17x7.5x40 Front with 215x40x17 tires and 17x9.5x40 Rear with 255x40x17 tires.

I'm assuming these are the S Tech Tein springs available at SOS ?
I run Technomagnesio's 17 and 18's so am assuming about the same camber degrees as your set up.
No unusual tire wear ? What suspension settings did you end up with using stock shocks and Tein springs. ?
Almost bought a set of used Hypermax's recently but I like your KISS set up here.

Thanks for posting this info and coming from a road race guy adds validity to your observations that I'm looking for. Street AND track with street needs > track. Same as I want.
 
I'm assuming these are the S Tech Tein springs available at SOS ?
I run Technomagnesio's 17 and 18's so am assuming about the same camber degrees as your set up.
No unusual tire wear ? What suspension settings did you end up with using stock shocks and Tein springs. ?
Almost bought a set of used Hypermax's recently but I like your KISS set up here.

Yes, the S-Tech Springs are available at SOS and Dali, see:
http://www.scienceofspeed.com/products/suspension_performance_products/NSX/TEIN/STECH_Springs/
or
http://www.daliracing.com/v666-5/catalog/index_browse_part.cfm?focus=1736

Joe Lomoriello at Vince's Auto Body installs my suspension combinations and always aligns my car to stock specs. I never have unusual (for an NSX) tire wear or any other issues.

I could have saved a bunch of money if I had followed the KISS principle from day one!


Thanks for posting this info and coming from a road race guy adds validity to your observations that I'm looking for. Street AND track with street needs > track. Same as I want.

Your welcome,
Dave.
 
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nice thread!!

Going to order Tein springs.

Been looking for too long. Everything has been discontinued almost. The choice is tein, Tanabe, H&R. Was worried the teins looked odd because they drop the rear more than the front but for $200 will give them a try.

Will i be able to fit them myself or is it a jop for a mechanic?
 
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