4 Wheel Alignment Processed Cheaped Out? Need input.

[S2kvee]

So i have a 1996 Acura NSX-T. It was a rebuild from a front driver side collision to where the whole suspension assembly was replaced. I got the car lowered already with H&R Springs, there was a slight pull to the right side (assuming it was normal considering some nsx have the right side lower than the left). Anyways, Over the weekend i had a shop install some tein ra coilovers w/ a different set of wheels 18/19 instead of 17" and after that, the whole alignment was completely Fawked. I would say my steering wheel would be at 2-3 o'clock going straight. I took it in to my local tire shop for an alignment today.

the aftermath, my steering wheel now is back straight, however i do notice it being slightly unstable when hitting a bump, it sorta throws the car to the right. The tech stated that the car might've been involved with an impact on the right side messing up the caster. My reply was the driver side was hit, not the passenger side. The measurements resulted the driver side perfect but passenger side is off.

He stated he adjusted the caster as much as he could, and camber was not adjustable. But when i looked at the result sheet. I barely see any adjustments on caster.

my concern / question is:
1. do you guys think he adjusted or did he just say he did.
2. Is camber adjustable or not? (front and rear)


i just spent $60 on this alignment, and im urging to get a second opinion with another alignment shop to see what they can do. It was close to closing time and i assume they half-assed the work to leave early.

 

[Tangoman]

Having a 4 degree delta in caster from side to side will cause the car to pull to one side. However, this is more pronounced on thinner wheels and taller tires where the caster sets the center. I had this issue on my TSX, and it went away with wider wheels and lower profile tires as the width itself helped it center, stiff sidewalls.

If you switched to larger wheels on the front you will get more bump steer, guaranteed, as you have a highest conical stiffness of the tire.

 

[Tangoman]

If camber is adjustable it would be with eccentric washers, can't remember if it is. Caster being adjustable is rare, especially on double wishbones but perhaps the forward compliance pivot allows that. I just can't remember.

My diagnosis based on what you wrote,

1) The 18" front wheels and he low profile tires are generating a lot of bump steer/ toe kick, nothing you can do to fix this except drop down to smaller wheels and taller tires.
2) the cross- caster from the accident is too large to fix without aftermarket parts or a trip to the body shop. On the highway at 70+MPH the car could pull to one side but your low profile tires might mask it.

 

[angus]

The camber and caster is adjustable on the NSX, no "kits" needed.

 

[Tangoman]

Is caster adjustable by that much? 2 degree on each side is what he would need, OP could meet at the middle at 6 degree on both sides. If not, a kit would be needed to get more out of it.

 

[Hapa88]

The camber and caster is adjustable on the NSX, no "kits" needed.

+1 Camber, Caster and Toe are all adjustable on the NSX, though with the accident it "may" have reached the maximum inputs they can put it.

Sounds more like the alignment shop is incompetent.

I would take it back and show them the wheel alignment procedure in the NSX Service manual which starts on page 18-7 (Page 652 of the PDF).

http://www.nsxprime.com/FAQ/Reference/1991_svcman/1991servman.pdf

 

[S2kvee]

The tech did say he adjusted the caster and stated camber is not adjustable.

his statement was the he adjusted both driver and passenger side to the max. But at the time, he seemed like he showed no interest... but the fact that the only difference in caster was .1 degree sorta threw on a red flag. Assuming the caster was not adjusted at all manual but slightly moved when toe was adjusted. The car does drive straighter, i still do feel a slight pull to the right side, very slight however but pretty severe bump steer.

Ill try and see if another shop can make some improvements. I just wanted to confirm that caster, and camber is adjustable.

 

[Tangoman]

Yea, if that is what the tech said, he doesn't know what he's doing.

I'm sure you'll get it taken care of at a different shop - fix that cross-caster and it will drive straight.

 

[Onsoku]

Yea, if that is what the tech said, he doesn't know what he's doing.

I'm sure you'll get it taken care of at a different shop - fix that cross-caster and it will drive straight.

HIGHLY recommend that you post your issue in the NorCal forum. Someone will be able to recommend a great alignment shop that won't steer you wrong.

 

[LJSB]

Someone will be able to recommend a great alignment shop that won't steer you wrong.

Nice pun.

 

[TANTO]

HIGHLY recommend that you post your issue in the NorCal forum. Someone will be able to recommend a great alignment shop that won't steer you wrong.

Follow this advise. The lowering can make the alignment difficult. You need a very good tech who has a very good machine and thats harder to find than one would think. When you do, explain to him the collision work and tell him you understand it may take much longer than normal and you are happy to pay for his extra time. I good alighnmnet should be worth a couple hundred. And if this new guy makes any weasel comments when you get the car back, start over and find someone else. I don't trust the printouts for shit.

 

[venomous42]

not to bring a old thread back to life, but im a certified alignment specialist. i did alighment on exotics and restorations for 5 years. and im a certified autobody tech and mechanic. 30 years exp in the automotive industry. after looking at your alignment sheet the inc. angle and sia (steering axises inclination) tells me something is bent on the rt side in-between the upper pivot and lower pivot. which is the upper strut mount and lower ball joint. that could be the strut or the axle carrier (hub). 4.0 degrees caster is too low. these cars like having alot of positive caster. its not uncommon for a car to get hit on one side and bend the other side suspension. i would have to see the wreck to speculate further on that. the problem is you will not see any damage 90% of the time. you have to use the alignment specs to determine this. one option is a frame alignment machine can pin point this. a good body shop that has a state of the art 3d alignment rack and machine can hook targets up to certian points on the frame and ball joints and other points, and can tell you where the problem is. normally its a bent strut, but im not sure on the axle carrier on these, if they are aluminum they can bent real easy as well. TBH i dont even know what the suspension on the nsx looks like. i haven't had the front tire off to look. only the rear. and most of the susp. in light weight alum. i bought my car from a member here, and its been lowered at least by 2 inches. and im looking for a camber kit for the front and rear, due to -3.0 to -4.0 caster i have. its not hurting anything but the tires. and i would rather fix that, than replace tires every 5-10,000 miles. i think -1.0 to -2.0 would be ok. if anyone has a lead on kits, give me a tell, or has a body/mech/alignment question, feel free to pm me.

 

[LJSB]

He stated he adjusted the caster as much as he could, and camber was not adjustable. But when i looked at the result sheet. I barely see any adjustments on caster.

I suspect the problem here is the terms being used ie., caster and camber. I have noticed several threads and discussions here on this site where the two terms are accidentally switched with each other, that is, one says caster when they mean camber or camber when they mean caster.

It is a easy mistake to make(even the tech "venemous2" above did it once ("im looking for a camber kit for the front and rear, due to -3.0 to -4.0 caster ") when it is obvious he meant -3.0 to -4.0 camber.

My point on this is in the OP you referenced that your tech said the camber was not adjustable and he got all the caster he could. I submit that perhaps he meant he got all the camber he could and the caster was not adjustable since that is the spec that is so out of wack.

I have good reason to think he meant that. I have done many, many NSX alignments and have never found one where you could not adjust the camber but rarely have seen one where both front caster adjustment cams were free enough to move and make an adjustment. The caster adjustment cam utilizes a cam that has a tiny hole meant to turn with a allen(hex) wrench. This cam is often corroded or locked will move very little or not at all. It is common to find that the hole where you put the allen wrench is stripped so it no longer can move, spin the cam. I have found this to be so common that I took out the cam from a old, damaged, pivot assembly and made my own adjustment tool by welding a bolt onto the cam so I can get enough leverage to work the pivot loose, so it will adjust. Once I get the cam where I want it, I remove my tool and put the customer's cam back in place and continue with the alignment.

As for procedure, the tech should not need the manual because most wheel alignment systems , like the Hunter your tech used, outline and explain the NSX process very clearly. Printing out the book should not be needed.
This procedure is very important to follow because after every caster adjustment you need to do another caster swing to get a true and correct data. This swing usually results in needing a re-adjustment of the CAMBER which can change from the process.
If the proper process is not followed you end up doing what I call "chasing" the alignment which depending to what extreme done can make the car feel like it is going in circles to the one side. I have also had customers come in with this problem.

Fixing a car on the Internet is always hard because you are never sure you are getting correct, accurate, information. The terms can be tricky and very important when trying to convey, understand and resolve a problem.

BTW $60 is really inexpensive and I suspect they view alignments as a loss leader banking on the suspension having worn parts that will need replacement.

FYI. The time to free up the caster pivot can add 1-2 hours of additional labor to the alignment.

PS: According to the sheet, your tires are under inflated. The tech should have corrected this as part of his pre-adjustment procedure. Checking ride height would have been another pre-adjustment step as well.