3 Pulley Window Regulator Mod

Joined
20 October 2005
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951
Location
Boise, Idaho
I had some time last year (in Afghanistan) and thought that I would improve on the single pulley window regulator modification. Hugo got rid of most of the drag with the replacement of the bottom cable guide. I felt that more drag could be removed with using pulleys on the top two guides also. Anyway, here is what I came up with. I used aircraft quality pulleys which are a MS 20219-1 that can be purchased from Aircraft Spruce for $18.90 ea.
http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/appages/phenolicpulleys.php
these are really smooth bearing pulleys.

I am also making (having made) new guides for the trolley that rides on the "I" beam. It will be a few weeks before they are ready (in quantities with a very reasonable price).

My next project will be to adapt a more powerful motor to our regulators. I think that a late model Acura CL window regulator will be where I start.

Brad
 

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Brad, our friend Dan, Caveman, just had his pass window drop. He took things apart and fixed it up in a few hours with the window fixit thingy he had previously bought.
We are thinking of doing a bunch of cars here in Edmonton.
I see there is a kit by Hugo, but I like the idea of your 3 pulleys.
What direction do you suggest we take.
Regards and your best friend forever.
Trev
 
How's the motion after the install? I bought Hugo's kit but I haven't installed it yet and was thinking of adding the top pulleys as well. Is there any secrets to installing the top pulleys? THX.
Happy Motoring!
 
Brad – great work!

Is there any secrets to installing the top pulleys?

It looks like it would be a lot of work to fabricate something like that yourself. Here are what the OEM upper cable guides on the window regulator look like:



Now compare that with the pulley holder Brad fabricated in post #1. You need to get the pulleys into the right positions relative to the track so that the cable angles are still correct, then get the cable holders into the right positions relative to the pulleys so that they will work given the regulator’s cable length, and construct the whole thing strong enough that it won’t break over time. That’s not something you’ll design and fabricate in one evening. But if someone sells a kit, maybe you could install it in an evening.

Brad – any plans to sell a kit? Also, why did you choose to use Aircraft Spruce’s phenolic pulleys instead of their aluminum pulleys?
 
Are you looking to have the window go up so fast that it can cut an apple in half? or better yet a car jackers fingers LOL
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I mean after Hugo’s upgrade the problem was solved. Then Hugo came out with the glides which added that smoothness and no drag to the arm.

All the hard work with development, testing, video's, a USA Tour to help others install these kits speaks volumes about Hugo.
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I am all for making things better but, sometimes we OVER engineer stuff. more parts to replace when they fail<o:p></o:p>
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Hugo is a Mechanical Engineer I think he had a reason not to add 2 more pulleys to this design. tring to keep it as close to a Plug&Play Kit as possible.

I am not tring to bash your idea I think its great I thought about doing this same thing.

so I say Great job, keep up the good work.
 
Great Job Brad, I'm sure these additional pulleys will reduce drag ever further and make our windows work better.

Those Aircraft Pulleys are very well made using high quality materials from the description on their Web site.


Bram
 
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Question: Brad – any plans to sell a kit?

Answer: There is a good chance. I need to get my car up and running first. It has been in storage since Nov 09.

Question: Also, why did you choose to use Aircraft Spruce’s phenolic pulleys instead of their aluminum pulleys?

Answer: I felt that the phenolic pulleys would be better cuz you find most aircraft use phenolic rather than aluminum for control cables. The phenolic doesn't wear the cable, and vise versa, especially where these pulleys are not perfectly perpendicular to the cable due to the curvature of the "I" beam track.

BYW, I finished my passenger regulator last night. With the regulator reassembled EXCEPT for the spring and drive gear in the motor I can easily turn the cable spool in the motor drive. I set up the tension on the cable as close to original as possible. I tried to turn it, during disassembly,(without the pulleys) I could turn the spool, but with great difficulty by hand. The pulleys have made a big difference, how couldn't they!

Brad
 
I want a kit that lowers the window as fast as Dan's (Caveman) did on Saturday. The thing just dropped right down in a second or less.
The bad news is that he had a window fixit thingy broke cause it wasn't fixitied!
The things we buy and never install.
Trev
 
How's the motion after the install? I bought Hugo's kit but I haven't installed it yet and was thinking of adding the top pulleys as well. Is there any secrets to installing the top pulleys? THX.
Happy Motoring!

We should all get together and do a install day!
 
I used aircraft quality pulleys ... from Aircraft Spruce

I checked with Aircraft Spruce and those pulleys are MIL-spec items manufactured by Ralmark for the control and brake systems of military aircraft. Those are probably just about the highest-quality pulleys you can get. Great find!

The phenolic doesn't wear the cable, and vise versa, especially where these pulleys are not perfectly perpendicular to the cable due to the curvature of the "I" beam track.

Since it’s such a pain to open up the door and take out the regulator, ideally I’d like to fix it and never have to replace parts again. As you mentioned, the regulator track is slightly curved so the cable goes through a few degrees of motion relative to the pulley. So the cable doesn’t always land straight in the pulley’s groove but sometimes rubs along the side. For a long service life, that rubbing shouldn’t wear either the cable or the pulley. A pulley with a phenolic body (sheave) should wear the cable less than a pulley with an aluminum body. But would the phenolic pulley itself wear more quickly? And would the phenolic pulleys withstand the urea grease Honda recommends the windows be lubricated with and the other greases people use for the purpose? Overall, I just want to maximize the expected service life of the regulator assembly before I have to replace parts again!
 
The reason for "Aircraft Quality " is to insure that non-standard cable runs, cable runs that aren't exactly straight but within maximun deflection standards, "won't" cause long term wear on the pulley guide, the insides of the pulley so there's not a chance of the cable to slip from the centre of the pulley after long term useage.
These phenolic pulleys are aviation industry wide and the military just happens to use them as they do last for long terms of use in locations, (in the airplane or helicopter) that aren't always easily accessable for replacement and withstand adverse environments. They mostly have sealed needle bearings that require no lubrication.
The "cable track" demands "NO" lubrication although it will withstand lubricants it is directed NOT to directly lubricate the cable track at inspection as it tends to attract dirt and debris that can cause accelerated wear to the phenolic surface and possible maring or damage to the cable. These pulleys that Brad wisely selected will last longer than you or your ancestors will ever outlast if installed correctly.

Cheers
nigel
 
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Thanks for the input! Do I understand correctly that you also feel a phenolic “aircraft quality” pulley is a better choice than an aluminum “aircraft quality” pulley given that:
  1. the steel cable will be approaching the pulley from an angle during part of the window’s travel
  2. there will be grease on the cable because it’s greased up inside the regulator’s motor case?
 
I contacted Ralmark, the manufacturer of the pulleys Aircraft Spruce sells, to find out which pulley they would recommend for use in a window regulator.

Question: “Would you recommend a phenolic or an aluminum sheave in an application where a steel cable approaches the pulley at a slight angle during part of the window's travel?”

Answer: “I assume by slight angle you mean a side angle. Grooves are designed for a 2 degree maximum pull off angle. Either material [phenolic or aluminum] is suitable.”

Question: “What kind of grease are your phenolic sheaves NOT compatible with? The cable needs to be greased in my application but I would need to stay away from greases that cause long-term damage to the phenolic material.”

Answer: “I cannot answer this, we have had no need to date to test for various lubricants. Material is procured to specification MIL-I-24768/16. You might want to review that document information.”

Reviewing the MIL-I-24768/16 specification sheet, I couldn’t find any requirements for material compatibility. Impact strength, flexural strength, compressive strength, flame resistance, etc., yes - but material compatibility, no. Maybe that’s also a reason why the “cable track” in airplanes demands “NO” lubrication, as Nigel stated above.

In any case, Ralmark stated that "the aluminum part does sound like a safe bet” for use in a window regulator with a greased cable.
 
I work as an aircraft mechanic for a company that does heavy maintenance on helicopters.

I've seen hundreds of these pulleys being used and abused with much higher stress than we could ever dream of being put on them in our cars. The "no" lubricant part means just that, they "need" no lubrication to work properly, but the grease used in our regulators most certanly wont harm them as they even withstand aircraft hydraulic oil wich is much more aggressive!
They are most commonly used on control cables wich connect the pilots stick or pedals to the ailerons or rotors (simply put, but you get the idea of how important role they have)

Arve.

Edit: Only worry is, as Hugo stated in his thread, how they are fixed to the top of the aluminium track? Did you reinforce that part?
 
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A_J – given that you can get these pulleys with either aluminum or phenolic sheaves, which would you prefer in this application?

I would go for phenolic, as you would never have to worry about them ever again.
 


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