2nd Generation R8 vs NSX

[BB]

From http://www.motoring.com.au/news/201...eva-motor-show-next-gen-audi-r8-looming-49128

But the petrol-engined V10 will be the star of the show initially, and is expected to get a power hike of around 20kW to reach up towards 425kW.

425 kW = 570 hp

Sources have confirmed the R8 e-tron plug-in hybrid will not incorporate a V8. Instead Audi is deciding between a V6 or a four-cylinder engine, suggesting the production version is at least three years away.

This talk about the R8 hybrid having an electrical plug together with a 4 cylinder engine suggests a car more akin the the BMW i8 than the Porsche 918-- i.e. a GT car with green credentials as opposed to an ultimate performance sports car.

I don't think Honda has anything to worry about. It's highly doubtful the new R8 will outperform the new NSX, at least initially. Audi's current plans for an R8 hybrid appear to be directed towards offering a different kind of car than what the new NSX aims to be. Like the 918 and P1 the new NSX is a purpose built sports hybrid, whereas the R8 hybrid will be an alternative "green" offering that sits alongside the the standard petrol R8.

 

[fastaussie]

I want to see the new Audi R8, Lamborghini Huracan, NSX, Ford GT and Ferrari 488 go head-to-head with each other on road and track. that is the Supercar showdown of this new century...

 

[BB]

More 2nd gen R8 info in this article:
http://www.motoring.com.au/news/2015/geneva-motor-show-2015-preview-49179

There will be the base version of the R8 (if you can call it that), with 540hp and 540Nm of torque from its 5.2-litre V10. It's going to hit 100km/h in 3.5 seconds, reach up to 200km/h in 11.3 and top out at 323km/h.

Then there will be the R8 Plus, rated at 610hp and 560Nm. Riding on 20-inch Michelin rubber, it will sprint to 100km/h in 3.2 seconds, blast through to 100km/h in 9.8 seconds and reach 330km/h. At that speed its 1475kg mass is glued to the road with the help of a fixed rear wing.

With the general consensus being the new NSX will will have a sub 3.0 second 0-60 time, I don't believe the new R8 is likely to out accelerate it. However I have huge doubts that the NSX with its battery pack will manage to weigh less than the 1475 kg (3250 lbs) stated for the R8 Plus.

 

[RYU]

My initial knee jerk reaction to their claim of keeping weight under 1500kg was like....YEAH, RIGHT... With the mechanical Haldex AWD, and talks of all electric power, even the diesel v12 which they got rid off... All my brain kept telling me was there's no amount of CF that could keep this car under 2000kgs.

I'm glad they're pushing on. It could help keep NSX prices lower

 

[2015 NSX]

Rumors regarding the second gen R8 have been all over the map. I've read about the base engine being everything from a high output version of the supercharged V6 (400hp), tweeked current 4.2l V8 (469hp), 4.0l twin turbo V8 (500hp?) and now the V10 at 540hp. Who comes up with this stuff and do the blogs make it up on the fly (that would be a yes).
Regardless, if the latest is true (v10), the NSX at $155k+ is now the lowest budget mid-engine (new) supercar!

 

[BATMANs]

The only AWD that I've seen that is close to the SH-AWD is Mercedes Vectoring AWD.

Rest of the AWD systems, including Audi's seem to have a fixed % of power delivered to the tire and/or can't deliver up to 100% to the one wheel with the traction.

So if that is the case, even if the R8 had more power or even a better power to weight ratio, it doesn't seem to have the ability to handle like the NSX 2.0.

Of course I could be missing something here.

 

[Glenn Quagmire]

^^^This^^^

 

[2slow2speed]

The only AWD that I've seen that is close to the SH-AWD is Mercedes Vectoring AWD.

Rest of the AWD systems, including Audi's seem to have a fixed % of power delivered to the tire and/or can't deliver up to 100% to the one wheel with the traction.

So if that is the case, even if the R8 had more power or even a better power to weight ratio, it doesn't seem to have the ability to handle like the NSX 2.0.

Of course I could be missing something here.

Hmm... 100% of what power?

The NSX2.0 will be able to deliver 100% of the available torque provided by the electric motor(s) to the front wheel(s), but that is not the same as been able to deliver 100% of the power that is available (from the FI engine + electric motor(s)) on the entire car.

 

[BATMANs]

I don't see any reason not to assume that the NSX 2.0 SH AWD is no different in function than the other SH AWD line up where all of the power can be delivered to just one tire/wheel if warranted regardless if it's electric fwd and gas rwd. All regulated by computers and electronic nanny.

 

[2slow2speed]

I don't see any reason not to assume that the NSX 2.0 SH AWD is no different in function than the other SH AWD line up where all of the power can be delivered to just one tire/wheel if warranted regardless if it's electric fwd and gas rwd. All regulated by computers and electronic nanny.

Your logic is broken, for example the SH-AWD on my MDX is not the same as the SH-AWD that will be on the NSX2.0. Figure out the difference, and you will understand the argument that I am making.

I'm even attaching a picture of the NSX2.0's drivetrain.

 

[2slow2speed]

AutoExpress preview of the R8.

Top range model 610hp, 15% lighter than previous generation and 40% stiffer chassis.
Power can be transferred 100% to the front or 100% to the rear axles.
0-60 3.2sec

 

[fastaussie]

it doesn't look slow, and Audi seems pretty confident. we'll see how it goes soon enough...

 

[BB]

Based on what I'm hearing only the V10 Plus model will have any hope of competing with the new NSX. But the base price for the first generation V10 Plus is already a whopping $182,500. The $150,000 NSX will be a far better value.

Will the new R8 even outperform the outgoing 458? Based on what Audi has revealed thus far it looks like it may not. While Audi has never intended for the R8 to compete with Ferrari, Honda (Ted Klaus) has repeatedly referenced the 458 as a target. Likewise the original NSX was unquestionably targeting Ferrari.

The new R8 V10 Plus looks nice but I honestly cannot get excited about it for the price. Not only is it unlikely to provide the visceral excitement of the 458, but it is also unlikely to provide the reliability of the NSX. If I was willing to forgo reliability as being a huge concern then I'd buy a used 458 before I'd buy a new R8 V10 Plus.

 

[Glenn Quagmire]

^^^Well said^^^

 

[fastaussie]

Based on what I'm hearing only the V10 Plus model will have any hope of competing with the new NSX. But the base price for the first generation V10 Plus is already a whopping $182,500. The $150,000 NSX will be a far better value.

Will the new R8 even outperform the outgoing 458? Based on what Audi has revealed thus far it looks like it may not. While Audi has never intended for the R8 to compete with Ferrari, Honda (Ted Klaus) has repeatedly referenced the 458 as a target. Likewise the original NSX was unquestionably targeting Ferrari.

The new R8 V10 Plus looks nice but I honestly cannot get excited about it for the price. Not only is it unlikely to provide the visceral excitement of the 458, but it is also unlikely to provide the reliability of the NSX. If I was willing to forgo reliability as being a huge concern then I'd buy a used 458 before I'd buy a new R8 V10 Plus.

R8's were specifically designed to be, and seem to be, quite reliable. never heard of, nor experienced any problems with them. and they're very well regarded, and huge sellers. it's a very successful car. its much more current legacy will guarantee it remains a fast mover on the sales floor. I don't see the new NSX having any effect on new R8 ownership at all, especially with a cheaper variant for the price conscious.

and while the original NSX was targeted at the 328, and then 348, it was surpassed by the 355 and 360 shortly thereafter. since the new NSX was targeted at the base 458, we'll have to see how it compares against the 488. hopefully Honda targeted the new car well above the 458...

p.s. I'd buy a second hand 458 before anything else.

 

[Winx909]

I think this is why Ted is not giving actual hp figures just yet they have a year before delivery and in the mean time the competition has climbing hp numbers, if Acura exploits their hp then they will be out performed before they deliver the first car, ie. If they came out and say 550hp Ferrari will just do 600hp and the hp war continues, now that the nsx is turbo hp very easy to add.

 

[Rope]

I would have to disagree that the 355 outperforms the NSX. I would say it is on par with the NSX and Ferrari did not have a distinct performance difference until the 360 was released.

 

[N Spec]

I would have to disagree that the 355 outperforms the NSX. I would say it is on par with the NSX and Ferrari did not have a distinct performance difference until the 360 was released.

This is the general consensus that I find. It certainly was not built better either as the NSX still had the better overall design. The F355 just sounds amazing and can blind one to many things...

 

[2slow2speed]

I would have to disagree that the 355 outperforms the NSX. I would say it is on par with the NSX and Ferrari did not have a distinct performance difference until the 360 was released.

Huh???? What in the world are you folks smoking??

NA2 NSX 290HP, 224lb/ft torque
F355 375HP, 268lb-ft torque

They are both about the same curb weight.

Wish that Doug Hi (NSX-Files) was still around, he used to own a F355 and a track modified NSX that used to compete in OTC (Open Track Challenge).

Anyways read Chapter 38: http://www.nsxfiles.com/stories.htm

I've shared plenty of track time with Ferrari's including F355, a stock F355 will pull a stock NA2 on the straights and will be able to keep similar cornering speeds as a NSX.

BTW: Have you actually been on track against a F355 or are you just bench racing?

 

[N Spec]

When I compare the two, I'm comparing them on an overall car ownership experience/emotional level, and not purely track experience like some.

 

[JD Cross]

When I compare the two, I'm comparing them on an overall car ownership experience/emotional level, and not purely track experience like some.

I'm curious whether you own an NSX, a Ferrari, or another marque?
It would help to know where your knowledge comes from.

 

[fastaussie]

Huh???? What in the world are you folks smoking??

NA2 NSX 290HP, 224lb/ft torque
F355 375HP, 268lb-ft torque

They are both about the same curb weight.

I've shared plenty of track time with Ferrari's including F355, a stock F355 will pull a stock NA2 on the straights and will be able to keep similar cornering speeds as a NSX.

BTW: Have you actually been on track against a F355 or are you just bench racing?

in terms of pure performance, the 355 will smoke an NSX. I can say I know this from personal experience as my mate bought a 1995 Ferrari 355 about a year ago with a 5-speed transmission, but is otherwise stock with 40,000+ miles. his car simply walks my 2002 NSX any time we're on a straightaway. at lower speeds and from a stop (launched incredibly hard) my car stays close. but once the speeds reach over triple digits, the 355 walks away. and it would go on to a top speed of another 20 mph over a mid-90's NSX. so in terms of performance, I'd have to agree with 2slow (who really doesn't sound too slow by the way). it really isn't a contest.

I know we all love our NSX's, and I prefer mine over a 355. my mate test drove my '96 NSX, and then the 355, and obviously went with the Ferrari knowing full well it would cost heaps more to buy and maintain. I prefer the style and rarity of the NSX, which is also why I didn't purchase a late model, manual trans Audi 4.2 R8 after I sold my '96. but there is no arguing with numbers and physics...

When I compare the two, I'm comparing them on an overall car ownership experience/emotional level, and not purely track experience like some.

you simply can't compare a Ferrari and Honda on an emotional level...

i believe N Spec has an NA1 NSX?

 

[N Spec]

I'm curious whether you own an NSX, a Ferrari, or another marque?
It would help to know where your knowledge comes from.

I considered getting a F355 spider a while back that I saw for a good price and drove my NSX to check it out. So I drove them back-to-back for comparison. The F355 was test driven extensively. I preferred my NSX vastly even if the Ferrari felt moderately faster and sounded way better. The shabby Ferrari interior of that era was not pleasing to me IMO when I sat in it compared to my older NSX.

It did not excite me like the first time I drove the NSX and trust me, I was really excited before I got in the F355. The exterior design was like a more sophisticated SW20 MR2 and not better than the NSX to me either. So I reluctantly told the salesman I preferred my Honda and of course he said I was crazy! "Sorry for wasting your time pal. "

- - - Updated - - -

in terms of pure performance, the 355 will smoke an NSX. I can say I know this from personal experience as my mate bought a 1995 Ferrari 355 about a year ago with a 5-speed transmission, but is otherwise stock with 40,000+ miles. his car simply walks my 2002 NSX any time we're on a straightaway. at lower speeds and from a stop (launched incredibly hard) my car stays close. but once the speeds reach over triple digits, the 355 walks away. and it would go on to a top speed of another 20 mph over a mid-90's NSX. so in terms of performance, I'd have to agree with 2slow (who really doesn't sound too slow by the way). it really isn't a contest.

I know we all love our NSX's, and I prefer mine over a 355. my mate test drove my '96 NSX, and then the 355, and obviously went with the Ferrari knowing full well it would cost heaps more to buy and maintain. I prefer the style and rarity of the NSX, which is also why I didn't purchase a late model, manual trans Audi 4.2 R8 after I sold my '96. but there is no arguing with numbers and physics...



you simply can't compare a Ferrari and Honda on an emotional level...

i believe N Spec has an NA1 NSX?

Yes, I've owned a red/tan 95 NSX-T and now a 92 GPW. The F355 exhaust note had me very emotional, but everything else was not quite there yet and I can't overlook that. The newer Ferrari, yes, no comparison...

 

[JD Cross]

I considered getting a F355 spider a while back that I saw for a good price and drove my NSX to check it out. So I drove them back-to-back for comparison. The F355 was test driven extensively. I preferred my NSX vastly even if the Ferrari felt moderately faster and sounded way better. The shabby Ferrari interior of that era was not pleasing to me IMO when I sat in it compared to my older NSX. It did not excite me like the first time I drove the NSX and trust me, I was really excited before I got in the F355.

Back in the day I had a deposit on a 348 but was able to take a test drive in an NSX prior to 348 delivery. I then took a short test drive in a 348 and was truly disappointed in the fit, finish and overall quality of the 348 although you couldn't criticize the sound of the flat plane V8. I cancelled the 348 order ( at a cost) and bought the better car.

Still the strength of the European sports car brands is astonishing.
It will take a very long time (if ever) before a Japanese brand has the same universal visceral appeal of a Ferrari, Porsche, Lamborghini etc.

Honda is probably the one company who could reach parity but I think it would take many years of offering a superior car, at superior value, on a continuous basis, and under very tight supply management to maintain exclusivity.
Exclusivity on a continuous basis seems to be the main area the Japanese companies haven't managed well.

Ferrari has always understood the enduring quality of a wait list in keeping their cars exclusive, and keeping their owner's car values high.

 

[N Spec]

Back in the day I had a deposit on a 348 but was able to take a test drive in an NSX prior to 348 delivery. I then took a short test drive in a 348 and was truly disappointed in the fit, finish and overall quality of the 348 although you couldn't criticize the sound of the flat plane V8. I cancelled the 348 order ( at a cost) and bought the better car.

Still the strength of the European sports car brands is astonishing.
It will take a very long time (if ever) before a Japanese brand has the same universal visceral appeal of a Ferrari, Porsche, Lamborghini etc.

Honda is probably the one company who could reach parity but I think it would take many years of offering a superior car, at superior value, on a continuous basis, and under very tight supply management to maintain exclusivity.
Exclusivity on a continuous basis seems to be the main area the Japanese companies haven't managed well.

Ferrari has always understood the enduring quality of a wait list in keeping their cars exclusive, and keeping their owner's car values high.

It's interesting because back then Ferrari had the branding and exhaust sound already (I really believe this is a key element to the Ferrari Experience). They present a car that usually looks different from other sports cars and an exhaust note to match. However, they lacked reliability and build quality. Well today they've strengthened their weaknesses and command the admiration of virtually everyone.

What you mentioned are very big elephants in the room for most informed enthusiasts that understands what makes a supercar/exotic successful. The NSX lacked a visceral exhaust note that is truly exciting/exotic and continuous branding presence (which has been argued continuously up here). Honda seems to be keen on the latter for the new NSX and we've only heard very small clips of the exhaust, but it does sound unique. So we shall see as production is getting closer by the minute.

And to get on topic, The R8 V10 plus here seems to be lacking styling and balanced exclusivity. It's a best seller type of supercar and it just does not look exotic still, even if that V10 sounds phenomenal. I can't say the better styled Huracan's increased pricetag is justified, but even at a discounted rate of the R8 V10, I'd still personally would take the Huracan based on what I've seen/witnessed and money was no object.