2002 NSX-R vs. 1991-1994 NA Tuned NSX

kenjiMR

kenjiMR

Experienced Member
Joined
28 April 2000
Messages
1,190
Location
SF Bay Area / Boston MA
I just got the latest Evo magazine which announces NSX-R as their 2002 car of the year.
I'm really shocked and happy about their report, but I am really interested in how we can convert our NSX coupes into something that feels almost identical. I'm willing to believe that it is possible... The torque provided by the 3.2L motor may not ever be possible, but it is quite easily possible to drop the weight of the car to the NSX-R's 2800lbs AND get almost the same amount of HP with proper NA tuning. I think the aero tuning of the NSX-R would be the most difficult to emulate as well as the suspension tuning.

I currently have the following mods on my car:

Taitec center-exit exhaust (17lbs ~20lb weight reduction)
Taitec diffuser (probably no weight reduction, but may offer some downforce and less drag)
TEIN Type-RA 10kg/10kg susspension (some weight reduction ~ 10lb)
Dali street/track anti-sway bar set to full hard front, full soft rear.
Racing seats + harnesses (-40lbs)
Racing steering wheel (-5 lbs?)

The car currently weighs ~2860lbs with half tank of gas.
With new headers, clutch, and a bit more weight reduction, it seems likely
it could go to 2800lbs without losing the AC or Radio

other weight reductions:
no spare, no engine cover, no mats

I'm curious if if we can get Taitec in Japan or other NSX tuner shops in Japan
to do a minimal bolt-on mod NSX comparo with the NSX-R.

Another idea is ask Best Motoring / Hot Version of Japan to do a test like this.

NSX-R vs. Taitec NSX!
 
Originally posted by kenjiMR:
The car currently weighs ~2860lbs with half tank of gas.
Click to expand...

Keeping things on an apples-to-apples basis, that represents a curb weight of ~2916 lbs with a full tank of gas. If you have a '91, that means you've reduced curb weight by 94 pounds from the 3010 pounds specified by Acura. You've still got to lose 116 more lbs to reach a curb weight of 2800 pounds.

[This message has been edited by nsxtasy (edited 09 January 2003).]
 
The thing best motoring hammers about the type R isn't weight or horsepower. It is all about the aerodynamics.
The hood, underbody, and rear diffuser and 2002 update all work together to make the car faster. The drag is reduced and the down force front and rear is improved significantly.

-matt

[This message has been edited by blurr (edited 09 January 2003).]

[This message has been edited by blurr (edited 09 January 2003).]
 
So the next step to emulate the NSX-R aero package would be to compliment your rear diffuser with a scooped hood.

Kenny, you forgot to include the 29lb? spare tire, 15lb engine cover, and floor mats in the mix.

Further weight reduction w/ headers. Those'll also be a nice bump in HP. I thought the Tein RA was a 26lb weight reduction? And are you including your Volk TE-37's?

There's a guy on this forum in Europe who lapped the Nurburgring faster than the NSX-R. I believe he has a similar setup as yours.

FWIW, I'm planning on doing the very same thing as you'd like to do!
 
Originally posted by Ponyboy:
Kenny, you forgot to include the 29lb? spare tire, 15lb engine cover, and floor mats in the mix.
Click to expand...

Since the floor mats are an optional, dealer-installed accessory, I believe that Acura's specs for curb weight are for a car without floor mats.

Yes, removing them will save weight. But if you're figuring your savings from stock via weight reduction, you should not be including the weight of the mats. However, if you keep the mats in the car, you should subtract their weight from your savings, since they represent a weight addition to your car from "stock".
 
True, I speak japanese and understood what they were saying about the R. The aero portion would be very difficult to replicate without the actual aero parts.

nsxtsy, I have weighed my car on a scale prior to installing the TEINs and weighed it at 2880lbs w/ full tank of gas.
This allows me to believe that my car is indeed 2860lbs. The scale accuracy is +/- 5lbs.

I don't think my TE37s are much of a weight reduction... possibly increase the weight due to larger crap rubber (Kumho 712).
I'm planning to use Kumho MX, Bridgestone S03, or Yoko ES100s next.

I would really like to have one of those NSX-R replica hoods too... but its just too much $$!!

-Kenji

Originally posted by blurr:
The thing best motoring hammers about the type R isn't weight or horsepower. It is all about the aerodynamics.
The hood, underbody, and rear diffuser and 2002 update all work together to make the car faster. The drag is reduced and the down force from and rear is improved significantly.

-matt

[This message has been edited by blurr (edited 09 January 2003).]
Click to expand...



[This message has been edited by kenjiMR (edited 09 January 2003).]
 
Originally posted by kenjiMR:
nsxtsy, I have weighed my car on a scale prior to installing the TEINs and weighed it at 2880lbs w/ full tank of gas.
This allows me to believe that my car is indeed 2860lbs. The scale accuracy is +/- 5lbs.
Click to expand...

The math doesn't add up here.

The weight of the car with full fluids before TEIN installation was 2880 pounds.

If the TEIN installation reduces the weight of the car by 10 pounds, the weight of the car with full fluids after TEIN installation should be 2870 pounds.

If you use up half a tank of gas (a full tank contains 18.6 gallons at 6 pounds per gallon), that should reduce the weight of the car by 56 pounds, so the weight of the car with half a tank of gas after TEIN installation would then be 2814 pounds, not 2860 pounds.

It probably introduces less error if you only weigh the car with a full tank of gas and use that weight for comparison purposes. Otherwise, if the gas gauge reads half full, you're assuming that it has 9.3 gallons, but every gallon you're off with that assumption results in an error of 6 pounds.

[This message has been edited by nsxtasy (edited 09 January 2003).]
 
Originally posted by kenjiMR:
The torque provided by the 3.2L motor may not ever be possible, but it is quite easily possible to drop the weight of the car to the NSX-R's 2800lbs AND get almost the same amount of HP with proper NA tuning.
Click to expand...

You could EASILY get more hp from your motor than the Type R has. Unless they modified the motor a lot more than they are indicating, I don't believe it makes much more power than a regualr 3.2L (290 hp).

If you were to seriously build an NA motor from scratch, with good management, it would not be at all difficult to get over 400 hp at the carnk on pump gas. If you retain VTEC, you would even keep a nice idle. It would get spendy, though.
 
The feeling of instant acceleration of the 3.2L cars is also attributed to the 6 speed. I would say the 6 speed has a comparatively greater effect on the "feeling" of power than the 200cc displacement increase.

The bottom line is, there is no cost effective way of duplicating a NA2 NSX-R from an earlier coupe. First the body is diferent so you cannot duplicate(cheaply anyway) one of the most important attributes of the new R--the aerodynamics. Then of course the motor is different, throttle, ECU, tranny, brakes, suspension are all different. The chassis of the R is also modified. Interior wise you would need to cover the dash and doors in real leather, red carpets, kevler seats, etc. Even if you neglect the interior and focous only on performance oriented items, you are still looking at the cost of another mint condition early NSX to convert to R-spec. If you are going to spend that much money, just import a real one from Japan.

That is why I say the NA2 NSX-R is the best Honda can give us at its selling price.

------------------
George W
Porsche 996 for sale!
 
I suppose we would like to equal the performance of the NSX-R more than we would like to build a outwardly look-alike.
There would be several aspects to look at:

- 1) Lighten the car
- 2) Improve the engine output (HP and torque)
- 3) Improve suspension
- 4) Improve aerodynamics

1)
kenjiMR has already lightened his car substantially. In http://www.nsxhelp.com/faq/gears.htm there is mention of a 0.33sec gain in 0-60 time after loosing 200lbs over a standard '91. However, adding 20HP gives a 0.41sec gain. The NSX-R doesn 0-60 in around 4.7.
Dumping the AC and radio would reduce weight more but more HP seems to offer more potential (costs more too of course).

2)
The NSX-R is rated at 280hp by default but probably has more since the engine has been hand honed & balanced. The software has also been altered for better response. Kenji also has increased output but I don't know how much. I believe with I/H/E + chip it should be possible to get 300-310 HP from a 3.0 so it would be comparable to a NSX-R.

3)
The NSX-R has a VERY stiff suspension, one that would be a lot less comfortable than the standard NSX setup. The German guy that is mentioned in this thread (who is NOT going faster than the new NSX-R but IS very close at 8:01) is using the TEIN suspension and is very very happy with it. With the TEIN, swaybars and good tires I think the older model is coming very close to the R in terms of balance and cornering-ability.

4)
Looking at picture of the underbody of the NSX-R the differences are not that great (rear-diffuser, closed front). In both cases, something similar can be bought already. The hood probably plays a big part in the improved aeros but is expensive. In any case, the aeros don't come into play much at lower speeds (< 100mph) so whether they are that important is up to each.
 
Hi guys,

here is the guy from europe with the modified NA 1, especially prepared for Nürburgring.

I have done some mods too..of course

1.) GT aerodynamic kit with cf front flaps, cf rear diffusor and cf wing
2.) TEIN RE suspension kit (Dali)
3.) VOLK TE 37 7.5x17 and 9.5x18 with 215/265 Bridgestone S02 PolePosition
4.) ATE Power Discs with Ferodo DS 2500
5.) GT racing exhaust system (complete)
6.) cf airbox with Apexi, cf fender scoop and cf intake connector
7.) Dali ECU
8.) Superlightweight steering wheel kit
(steering wheel hub has 490 g, the MOMO Type R 1.030 g)

Weight 1.305 kg
338 HP
Vmax >300 km/h at 8.300 rpm/limiter

I can send you some pictures from my car.
This year I plan more weight reduce
(racing seats and more cf parts)
and getting 5 seconds quicker at the northern loop. .-))
 
Originally posted by David:
You could EASILY get more hp from your motor than the Type R has. Unless they modified the motor a lot more than they are indicating, I don't believe it makes much more power than a regualr 3.2L (290 hp).

If you were to seriously build an NA motor from scratch, with good management, it would not be at all difficult to get over 400 hp at the carnk on pump gas. If you retain VTEC, you would even keep a nice idle. It would get spendy, though.
Click to expand...

How in the world could you do this? I'd love to build a killer NA engine but I can't see how to get over 100-110 hp/liter

Thanks,
 
The easiest (conceptually) way to get more horsepower out of an engine is to increase the RPMs at which the engine makes power.

Horsepower = Torque * RPM / 5252
Torque = Horsepower * 5252 / RPM

My car dynoed 268hp at the wheels. Let's assume that was at 7500rpm. That would mean 187ft-lbs of torque. However, if I made that same 187ft-lbs at 9500rpm, I'd have 338 horsepower. If I were losing 15% from crank to wheels, 338 * (100/85) = 397hp. This is just an example.

To make 400hp at 8500rpm (a more reasonable red-line for a street-driven car), you'd need 247 ft-lbs. Which is probably not that hard to achieve if you increase compression and advance timing (which is possible with proper engine management, at least to some degree), and get headwork, cams, intake, and exhaust that can keep up.

It'd probably kill the low end, though. I think I'd rather just get a supercharger or turbo.

-Mike
 
NIICE, sounds alot like my setup, except I don't have the lightweight clutch yet.

Could you post some pictures of your steering wheel? I'm curious which one you are using...
Also, what is your posted time for the Nur so far? What alignment are you running and how many MM is your ride height?

Originally posted by Detlef Welsch:
Hi guys,

here is the guy from europe with the modified NA 1, especially prepared for Nürburgring.

I have done some mods too..of course

1.) GT aerodynamic kit with cf front flaps, cf rear diffusor and cf wing
2.) TEIN RE suspension kit (Dali)
3.) VOLK TE 37 7.5x17 and 9.5x18 with 215/265 Bridgestone S02 PolePosition
4.) ATE Power Discs with Ferodo DS 2500
5.) GT racing exhaust system (complete)
6.) cf airbox with Apexi, cf fender scoop and cf intake connector
7.) Dali ECU
8.) Superlightweight steering wheel kit
(steering wheel hub has 490 g, the MOMO Type R 1.030 g)

Weight 1.305 kg
338 HP
Vmax >300 km/h at 8.300 rpm/limiter

I can send you some pictures from my car.
This year I plan more weight reduce
(racing seats and more cf parts)
and getting 5 seconds quicker at the northern loop. .-))



Click to expand...
 
David,

Originally posted by David:
Ever see an S2000?
Click to expand...

Yes. I'm not trying to be a smart *ss, I just haven't seen any NA 6 cylinder engines in a streetable car that have that kind of output. 4 bangers yes the S2000 and the engine in the Integra Type R are both good examples. 6 or more cylinders looks like 110hp/liter is about it. If I'm wrong, I'll listen to reason :-)

thanks,
 
Originally posted by 96redT:
David,

I'm not trying to be a smart *ss,
Click to expand...

I'm not either. Well, maybe just a bit.

The point I was trying to make is that if a production motor (which has to allow for some bone head running it on 89 oct) can make 110-120 hp/l, then a well built custom motor should be able to do at least that well.

Imagine, if you will:

- 3.3L displacement (increased bore)
- 11.5:1 compression
- cams
- decent head work
- good headers & exhaust
- six throttle bodies
- programmable engine management
- the usual polishing and lightening

I think 120 hp/l is a reasonable guess as to the output, which would then be 396 hp at the crank. I have absolutely no doubt I could get an NSX motor to that level on 92 octane.
 
You guys never heard of the Vemac? It's a joint Japanese and British company that produces sports cars. They are very new and does not have a finalized product yet(I think). However, they have gotten VERY good reviews on their entry level open top sportster running Honda type-R motor. Their big dog, however, is the Vemac RD32R which is a closed top GT racer running a tuned NSX motor. They currently campaign the car in JGTC GT300 class and is very successful. There is a single road version prototype of the racer with the same NSX motor in street trim running about 370~380ps. The motor is placed vertically unlike the NSX with a different gearbox.

concept drawing:
image020314.jpg


prototype:
image020424.jpg


In action:
0915m062.jpg


We can assume they did not increase the displacement since the name is "32" but it seems pretty much everything besides that has been done to it such as different internals, top mounted airbox, individual throttles, etc, etc. So we can definately get our NSX motor into those HP numbers.

------------------
George W
Porsche 996 for sale!
 
Originally posted by 96redT:
Is that package available in the U.S?
Click to expand...

You could probably find someone who would import it for you, but I think you could do better putting a package together yourself. Revolution stuff is pretty spendy. For the same money, I think you could build a better motor with (mostly) US suppliers.

If you would like, shoot me an e-mail and I will give you my thoughts on how to do it.
 

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