My guess was that he ran off and yanked it back on. check it...
Aaron
http://www.s2ki.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=1889571
Aaron
http://www.s2ki.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=1889571
#1 reason not to track your street car (link with pics)
- Thread starter AaronR
- Start date
Oooh...ouch...didn't need to see that with NSXPO (my first track event) approaching. 
Just remember, if you are going to run off do it strait and come to a complete controlled stop whenever possible. Never try to get right back on the track, or you will be asking for trouble.
This guy looks like he dropped a wheel and yanked in back on the track. I drive at that track (Gingerman raceway) almost 4 times a month and I have never seen anything like this happen there. There is nothing to hit there, and the surface is nice and flat.
Aaron
This guy looks like he dropped a wheel and yanked in back on the track. I drive at that track (Gingerman raceway) almost 4 times a month and I have never seen anything like this happen there. There is nothing to hit there, and the surface is nice and flat.
Aaron
oh man, that hurts...
AaronR said:
Definitely looks like it.
I recommend watching Doug's NSXFiles. From Volume 1 through 4. There is a scene where Doug did the same exact thing and he was thrown into a spin.
Nobody in that thread even asked about the passenger.
AaronR said:
Hmm.. That's a very strange roll if he was just simply trying to yank the car back on to the track.
From the sequence of pictures it would seem that he might have dropped off all 4 while trying to make a left turn and that he was trying to get back on track. If that was the case the weight of the car would have been transferred to the passenger side, (outside wheels). But from the pictures it looks like the driver side was the side that caught the dirt. So I don't think that this was the case.
So the only other explanation is that he spun while trying to make a right turn, and that he was actually going backwards through the dirt after the spin, while the car's weight was being transferred to the driver side wheels. The driver side wheels caught the mud/dirt and the car rolled over to the inside of the turn. At least this sounds a bit more plausible. If you look at picture #1 the black stuff that is in front of the car is actually the trail of dust/dirt that the car left while going backwards.
Anyways, this would be my guess. If that is the case, then it could always be that he simply had a power oversteer or some kind of oversteer condition, instead of having dropped off 1 or 2 wheels and yanking the car back. He probably tried to correct the oversteer by pointing the car to the outside of the turn (IE towards the slide) but the car spun anyways, and that's the reason why his wheels are pointing to the driver side even while going backwards..
So it might not have been avoidable at all once he got into the spin.. I guess we can only speculate...
Either way, the driver is very fortunate to have been driving alone and to have walked away from that roll..
Safe driving..
Ken
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akira3d said:Oooh...ouch...didn't need to see that with NSXPO (my first track event) approaching.
I think that you will be a bit more worried about the walls at Sears Point rather than roll-overs
Seriously you will be in good hands, the NSXCA Sacramento Chapter has excellent instrcutors for all of their events and I am sure many of them will be at NSXPO and that they will be able to give you excellent instruction for the event.
I agree with AaronR's comments, but I think there are really two separate points there, which usually apply to different circumstances:
1. If you go off, go off straight.
2. If you go off, don't try to bring the car back on the track.
Regarding (1), the point is, if it looks like you are going to put all four wheels off, point the car in the direction that it is traveling. Don't try to turn the car at all. If the car is pointed at an angle (or worse yet, sideways) relative to its direction of travel, the wheels/tires on one side can dig in, causing the car to roll.
Regarding (2), when someone goes off, the tendency is to try to steer the car back on the track too quickly. This is particularly applicable (and dangerous) when the car puts two wheels off - most often, at the exit of a turn. The correct response is to keep driving the car straight, with two wheels off, easing off the gas and keeping it under control. The dangerous, intuitive response is to think "pavement good, grass bad" and to quickly jerk the wheel to point the car back onto the track; when all four tires are back and suddenly grip, this can easily cause the car to spin, which is how an NSX got totalled exiting turn 8 at Road America last month.
Point 1 is more likely to apply to a rollover; point 2 is more likely to apply to a spin.
As sjs noted, there appears to have been a passenger (wearing a white shirt) in the car at the time.
1. If you go off, go off straight.
2. If you go off, don't try to bring the car back on the track.
Regarding (1), the point is, if it looks like you are going to put all four wheels off, point the car in the direction that it is traveling. Don't try to turn the car at all. If the car is pointed at an angle (or worse yet, sideways) relative to its direction of travel, the wheels/tires on one side can dig in, causing the car to roll.
Regarding (2), when someone goes off, the tendency is to try to steer the car back on the track too quickly. This is particularly applicable (and dangerous) when the car puts two wheels off - most often, at the exit of a turn. The correct response is to keep driving the car straight, with two wheels off, easing off the gas and keeping it under control. The dangerous, intuitive response is to think "pavement good, grass bad" and to quickly jerk the wheel to point the car back onto the track; when all four tires are back and suddenly grip, this can easily cause the car to spin, which is how an NSX got totalled exiting turn 8 at Road America last month.
Point 1 is more likely to apply to a rollover; point 2 is more likely to apply to a spin.
2slow2speed said:
As sjs noted, there appears to have been a passenger (wearing a white shirt) in the car at the time.
RSO 34 said:
Hmmm.... you might be right.
While I don't know any of the specifics about this incident or the event in which it took place, I have noticed a disturbing trend regarding track events - insufficient instruction. BMW CCA, NSXCA (including NSXPO), CGI Motorsports, and many other clubs and organizations put an instructor in the passenger seat alongside any driver who doesn't already have a lot of track experience, and hold classroom sessions as well. However, there are some groups holding events, and some tracks (including GingerMan) holding open lapping days, where anyone, even with no track experience, can drive on the track solo, with no instructor alongside, and even with no classroom instruction.
I find this prospect alarming.Let me give you a perfect example of why. I instructed a couple of students at GingerMan a few weeks ago; one was a total beginner, and the other was relatively inexperienced. Both tried to make the same error at the same point on the track, and without an instructor telling them to slow down, they could have had the same results as the fellow in the M3.
Here's the track layout:
One of the most fun turns at GingerMan is the combination turn, turns 5 and 6. Turn 6, taken by itself, would simply be a fairly tight, conventional 90-degree left turn. But the fact that it comes right after the wider, broader turn 5 means that 5 and 6 become a single turn, with a decreasing radius. In both cases, in their first few laps, the students got through turn 5, and in that little straight section between 5 and 6, started getting on the gas fairly hard, before turning in for 6.
Without someone telling them to BACK OFF and slow down, they could have easily been off on the outside of 6, which is rough dirt, and had they done so sideways, well...GingerMan is as safe a track as I have ever driven. But instruction is extremely important for the safety of an event, every bit as important as the track layout itself. No, an instructor can't necessarily prevent a student driver from making a mistake that results in hitting something - but it is much more likely to happen in an event where there is no instruction, than where instructors are in the cars.
The other thing to realize about driving on the track is that you only have to go as fast as you feel comfortable driving. No one is insisting that you go faster than you want to go. So it's up to the driver to drive within his own limits, and not to test those limits so close that he ends up exceeding them. It's possible to add speed a little bit at a time, while staying within your abilities and your comfort zone. While track driving necessarily entails some risk, the risk can be minimized by doing so. There are some drivers who have driven in dozens of events without ever going off track. The ones who do go off, tend to be those who were testing their limits, and pushed them too far.
I agree,nsxtasy said:
Yep, this is a lot easier to do when you are simply going off straight, but from the pictures it looks like the car was rotating clockwise after a spin and the car was going sideways with the back driver side end leading first, thus my comment that the car was going backwards.
It's a lot harder to have a controlled off while you are in the midst of a spin.
Anyways, I've never been to Gingerman so I'm sure that all of you who are local to that area know the layout of that track better.
nsxtasy and Aaron's advices still apply
2slow2speed said:
The worst part about knowing the track,is that he could have driven off strait for half a mile before he would have been near anything!
Fyi ken this happened in turn 10 (which I could not tell from the pics actually). According to a customer of mine who was there, he tried to do a Mario Andretti and throttle our of a spin to get right back on the track into the action....oops!
Aaron
I am a novice at the track, and I am looking at the pictures trying to learn what I can. It looks to me that the camera view is from somewhere inside of turn 10, that this car was making a right turn and got at least the outside tires off the track, tried to correct to the right, and spun the car clockwise off the track, so where the picture sequence starts, the car is already off the track facing sideways-backwards to the direction it's moving, and the situation is already pretty much ir-recoverable. Is this right? Do you guys think there is anything the driver could have done to prevent the rollover once he was at the first picture condition?
Dave
Dave
dlongo said:
I think the photo sequence starts where the car's side wheels are digging in and the rollover is starting. At that point, there is probably nothing he could have done. However, there is plenty he could have done before the start of the photo sequence, to prevent the car from getting into that position. Quite aside from the fact that he undoubtedly failed to brake sufficiently for the turn, which was his first mistake. Once it was clear that he was going off the track, all he had to do was to drive the car straight ahead. At that part of the track, he has 200-300 feet of grass runoff area, and even if he keeps going beyond that, I think there's some kind of soft vegetation (not sure whether it's a cornfield or weeds). All he had to do was not turn the wheels - but he clearly did so.
I think Ken's remark about only driving as fast or as hard as you feel comfortable is probably the best advice on this thread. (The rest is good, too, but it all comes down to what is on the driver's mind)
As bad as this may sound, the driver is the one who causes most, if not all track accidents. Not paying attention to the flags, to other cars, to his/her car, and especially the instructor. Once you know how to handle a car that is out of control, then you can start pushing your limits as far as braking distance, turn entry and exit speed, and other nuances that make one driver faster or more specifically, smoother than another.
We all get a boost when we can pass a slower car, at least I do
But that also tends to put you and your car in a situation you may not be set up for, i.e. approaching the turn in faster than usual, not having as much room to brake, approaching the turn in offline due to the pass. All of these things will create very unsettling moments in the car, with a spin or an off (2 or 4 wheels) very likely the outcome when someone is not really in tune with every aspect of that moment. Sorry about the soapbox, but I know several newbies will be reading this, and I learned a lot from the postings on this site before I ever went on the track, and feel I had a slightly head start. Needless to say it did not keep me from spinning, snap spinning, and a few other unmentionables during my learning curve, which continues every time I go on track.
BTW, the drive straight off does not always work. Once off the track, try to steer slowly away from the nearest hard object. You keep more parts of your car original that way!!
As bad as this may sound, the driver is the one who causes most, if not all track accidents. Not paying attention to the flags, to other cars, to his/her car, and especially the instructor. Once you know how to handle a car that is out of control, then you can start pushing your limits as far as braking distance, turn entry and exit speed, and other nuances that make one driver faster or more specifically, smoother than another.
We all get a boost when we can pass a slower car, at least I do
But that also tends to put you and your car in a situation you may not be set up for, i.e. approaching the turn in faster than usual, not having as much room to brake, approaching the turn in offline due to the pass. All of these things will create very unsettling moments in the car, with a spin or an off (2 or 4 wheels) very likely the outcome when someone is not really in tune with every aspect of that moment. Sorry about the soapbox, but I know several newbies will be reading this, and I learned a lot from the postings on this site before I ever went on the track, and feel I had a slightly head start. Needless to say it did not keep me from spinning, snap spinning, and a few other unmentionables during my learning curve, which continues every time I go on track.BTW, the drive straight off does not always work. Once off the track, try to steer slowly away from the nearest hard object. You keep more parts of your car original that way!!
Of course, for someone who has never tracked a car (other than a shifter kart), you KNOW I will be taking it easy. And considering that everyone constantly points out that Infineon has a lot of walls, I will probably among the slowest NSXers at NSXPO. I'm not looking to be one of those guys who goes off. If anything, this is just going to be a learning experience and a good test of my interest in tracking my NSX.
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nsxtasy said:
If it's at the outside of turn 10, then there's plenty-o-runoff room beyond the grass...i've mowed that vegetation down a few times myself.
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AaronR said:
Actually, this did not happen in turn 10. This is being discussed on honda-tech.com by some folks who were there. One of them, who was on the track at the time, told me:
"He did that between turn 8 and 9, right after the transition from right hander to left hander, so i supposed you can call that the end of track-out 8, beginning of track-in 9.
He probably threw the car into turn 9 while the car was unsettled, got some oversteer, continued to gas it while sliding across the track, etc. He went pretty far wide on his way out of 8 so it makes sense."
Like most of GingerMan, this is another place on the track where the run-off area is wide, wide, wide, with plenty of grass, and low brush/weeds beyond that. That transition from right hander to left hander is very abrupt. Less experienced drivers sometimes brake there, which helps settle the car. Even for those with experience, you have to be very smooth with the car to keep it settled and planted while the weight is being transferred from one side to the other. If he got on the gas too soon (basically, any time before the car is settled and pointed at the apex for 9 is too soon), that could easily cause the car to slide to the outside of the turn. That was his first mistake - and it's a very, very big one.
Once he started to slide, he might (or might not) have been able to save it if he straightened the wheel to point the car in the direction it was traveling, so it wasn't going sideways when it went off. Instead, as it's very clear in the first photo, he had the wheel turned to the left, to try to point the car back onto the track. That would have increased the slip angle of the front tires, rendering them virtually useless.
