Brembo F-50/Lotus caliper BBK, $4000 complete

Hi Guys,
I just finished putting together the BBK for Factor X unlimited car. I was so impressed with the selection of components and how all the parts went together I am offering some kits.

This will be one step above the BBK that Brembo offers for the NSX which uses the smaller Lotus caliper on all 4 wheels. This set uses F-50 calipers on the front which are larger, have bigger pads, bigger pistons and a more rigid pedal feel. I will be using a 32 mm front rotor, 28 mm rear rotors which are slotted, the Brembo kit uses the smaller 28 mm rotors on all 4 wheels.

Kit will include:
F-50 front calipers, black color
Lotus rear calipers, silver color
32 x 328 mm slotted, floating front rotors and hats
28 x 328 mm slotted, floating rear rotors and hats
stainless steel brake lines
all brackets and fasteners

All this stuff for $4000!

2 down sides to this set up, the front calipers are big, very limited wheel selections, you may need to run spacers. The mis-matched caliper color is a drag, but the calipers can be painted if this really bugs you.

This is a fantastic track day package, all the way up to racing or daily driver. Tons of pads available at reasonable cost, standard dimensions on the rotors will allow options for replacement in the future.

PM if interested. Looks like I can only get 5 sets of these, 2 are spoken for so get a hold of me soon!

Dave

PS, I am working on 2 options for E-Brakes, will post when something is done...and I have something to sell!

Hey quit selling our secret formulas:wink: Thanks again Dave for all the work!

Factor X Motorsports said:

Hey quit selling our secret formulas:wink: Thanks again Dave for all the work!

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Secret formula??? This is old new, you guys are already onto REV 2!!!:wink:

it would be really interesting to see photos of those brakes

Dave,
any spec's and what offset rims you can run on the fronts? Pics?:biggrin:

I have the Brembo Indy Milled Aluminum Set up. How does this compare to that set up?

I agree, pictures please :smile:

rasir_x said:

I have the Brembo Indy Milled Aluminum Set up. How does this compare to that set up?

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The "INDY" Calipers are great, light and small.

Only downside, race calipers don't have dust covers = more rebuilds on a street car and cleaning.

Heat in a small caliper W/small pads you will use up more rotors and pads.

Great for a RACE car not so good for a street car unless you don't mind checking and rebuilding the brakes more often :smile:

rasir_x said:

I have the Brembo Indy Milled Aluminum Set up. How does this compare to that set up?

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Comptech chose the indy caliper because of form factor, as they wanted it to fit under the widest selection of normal offset wheels. The F50 has a fatter form factor (I had a set I bought off some guy at a track day a few years back). If you already have a set of Indy's, they will be fine. Brembo phased out the specific model CT was shipping as part of their powertech kit awhile ago.

I spoke with the Brembo's North American tech engineer to check my master cylinder calculations for the proper piston sizes at the time, and he confirmed my judgement and other assumptions on the topic.

Hi,
I was a dork and didn't take pics of the finished set up, only the parts I made...:redface:

Here are pics of the brackets and hats, all proto-typed off Comptech parts.

Here is a link with pics of the calipers:
http://www.hypertuning.com/brembo/brembocaliper.htm

Thanks for the input, Jeff and John are both getting brakes on this deal.

PM if you have specific questions. If I can get the order together this week, delivery will be 3 weeks. I am in line for CNC with the hats now...but everyone is busy.

rasir_x said:

I have the Brembo Indy Milled Aluminum Set up. How does this compare to that set up?

Click to expand...

The "Indy" set is a light race set, built around calipers which were designed for the rear of a Ferrari Challenge car. No dust seals, so not great for the daily driver, very light so they are excellent for a race application where they only need to last for a few hours and then can be rebuilt, new pads, new rotors, etc. They use the same rotors front and rear which is convenient for stocking spares but not the best for dealing with braking loads which are very different front and rear. They use the same calipers front and rear, which is not the best for brake balance and these work best with some sort of brake biasing set up.

All that said, the "Indy" set is a very nice track brake set. Hard to beat the performance.

What I am offering is a high performance street set, which has the capacity to do heavy duty track work and not fade or require a ton of maintainence. Rotors will have good life because they are sized specific to the end of the car, pads are inexpensive and the whole set up will be a 'drive it and forget about it' kind of set.

i have first hand experience with Brembo's gt kit which i had front and rear on my car as well as the GTR kit (comptech power tech) kit which i currently have on my car (front and rear)
FYI - Both of brembo's kits GT and GTR use the same size caliper and rotor front and rear. AND the balance on both was perfect. absolutly no need for adjusting brake balance. My car also has the comptech pro suspension (which prevents nose dive due to higher spring rates in the front of the car) so that you actually can use more rear braking power.
Some thought - you need to look at your brakes, suspension and tire sizes together as a system. If you have too soft suspension or the wrong size front to rear tires then your brakes cannot perform to there maximum potential. i have also personal first hand experience with a nsx equiped with stop- tech front and rear and they (stop tech) also use the same size caliper and rotor front and rear on the nsx. This stop tech nsx had bilstein shocks (lower perch) and stock sprigns (very soft suspension) and interestingly had perfect balance on the street and track with 235F and 275R So3 tires.

Don't know what you are trying to achieve but if the it is interesting that this approach of different rotors and calipers front and rear is different then how brembo and stoptech have approached braking on the nsx. Also this topic (why same caliper and roter) was brought up with brembo, who was at nsxpo 2003 and as a result they went back to italy for additional study on the brake balance on the nsx and in this study they concluded again that the proper approach with the weight distribution of the nsx was the previously selected caliper and rotor sizes.

Thanks

socalx said:

i have first hand experience with Brembo's gt kit which i had front and rear on my car as well as the GTR kit (comptech power tech) kit which i currently have on my car (front and rear)
FYI - Both of brembo's kits GT and GTR use the same size caliper and rotor front and rear. AND the balance on both was perfect. absolutly no need for adjusting brake balance. My car also has the comptech pro suspension (which prevents nose dive due to higher spring rates in the front of the car) so that you actually can use more rear braking power.
Some thought - you need to look at your brakes, suspension and tire sizes together as a system. If you have too soft suspension or the wrong size front to rear tires then your brakes cannot perform to there maximum potential. i have also personal first hand experience with a nsx equiped with stop- tech front and rear and they (stop tech) also use the same size caliper and rotor front and rear on the nsx. This stop tech nsx had bilstein shocks (lower perch) and stock sprigns (very soft suspension) and interestingly had perfect balance on the street and track with 235F and 275R So3 tires.

Don't know what you are trying to achieve but if the it is interesting that this approach of different rotors and calipers front and rear is different then how brembo and stoptech have approached braking on the nsx. Also this topic (why same caliper and roter) was brought up with brembo, who was at nsxpo 2003 and as a result they went back to italy for additional study on the brake balance on the nsx and in this study they concluded again that the proper approach with the weight distribution of the nsx was the previously selected caliper and rotor sizes.

Thanks

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Thanks for your thoughts. Sounds like you are set with your brakes so I am confused why you are chiming in here. Please keep enjoying your brakes! Perhaps you can share your background with us, race driver, brake engineer, chassis designer, etc. to give us a frame of reference from which you make your claims.

The set I have put together was designed in 2006 with Brembo Racing North America input and suggestions, maybe they know more than they did in 2003? This set was designed with braking power only in mind. The Brembo aftermarket set took into account wheel clearance and they decided the small benefit of the bigger calipers did not warrant the fitment issues.

Like I said before, sounds like your brakes are perfect for you so keep enjoying them.

The reason i am posting here is to hopefully help others contemplating purchase of your system.. you went down a path above of making it sound like same size rotors front and rear and calipers front and rear (ala brembo and stop tech) will result in poor balance and this is simply not true.

It sounds like you are developing a nice system. The way to market your product is to point out what is good about it and the fact that you have copied the comptech parts and developed a system for 4K that uses quality brembo F50 and F40 calipers are certainly strong selling points to sell your BBK as a nice kit developed for those on a budget or who want to get the most for there $.

What is not ok is to sell your kit by posting FUD (Fear Uncertainty Doubt )about others on the market. That is where you were headed by pointing out that brembo's other kits do not have good balance because they have the same size components front and rear. you then go on to say that you consulted with brembo in 2006 as to imply that my information in my post above is dated. (more FUD) I have an ongoing relationship with brembo, comptech and consulted with both before i purchased my GTR kit in Feb of this year and their views on the components to use and size front and rear where the same as in 2003 and in 1997.

As for my credentials... how about NSX owner that has actual first had experience buying, installing and using the kits and a person that has looked at the kits from everyone from AP (who is also owned by brembo) - ZMI.

How about your credentials, are you a race driver, brake engineer, chassis designer, etc? (to use your terms) I belive you previously totalled an nsx on a track so that definatly qualifies as some "school of hard knocks" experience.

Again, Dave, You make some really nice stuff, Short shift kit, compliance clamps, non -compliance billet components and now this brake kit. I am not attacking you, but please dont attach my credentials, and don't sell your kit based on FUD on what is out in the market, sell based on the strong virtues your kit has and based on your solid reputation. I hope you can fill a void that is missing now that comptech is gone, keep the good stuff coming.
Best regards

nsxsocal said:

What is not ok is to sell your kit by posting FUD (Fear Uncertainty Doubt )about others on the market. That is where you were headed by pointing out that brembo's other kits do not have good balance because they have the same size components front and rear. you then go on to say that you consulted with brembo in 2006 as to imply that my information in my post above is dated. (more FUD) I have an ongoing relationship with brembo, comptech and consulted with both before i purchased my GTR kit in Feb of this year and their views on the components to use and size front and rear where the same as in 2003 and in 1997.

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Sorry if there is confusion, never said or meant to say there was a problem with what is out there on the market. The Brembo engineers have suggested this combination as an improvement and should work better than what has been sold, or assembled before. I am relating their design concepts as to why it should be better. I am sorry if anyone is offended by what the Brembo Racing engineer suggest, especially if it is different from what you are running.

I was not an owner in 1997, so I have no thoughts on what was put together then.

My credential for brake design is I listen to Brembo engineers and follow their recommendation. I build brackets and hats...

Myself, I track the car, am an advanced driver, instruct with NSXCA, BMWCCA, BMWACA, PCA, Chin Motorsports, NCR, Lotus of Portland and others.

I have had a rear knuckle toe link break off, stuffed the car into the wall at Spokane Raceway, and here is the information about what to look for to avoid that failure:
http://www.nsxprime.com/forums/showthread.php?t=41638&highlight
Not sure what that has to do with this conversation but there is the reference info...

Like I said before, if you like what you have, drive it, if is perfect then you are set. Please don't read any 'FUD' into my posts, take it at face value, this is what I did, this is why I did it and this why Brembo thinks it should work better.

Dave,

How does this compare to your 997S setup?

Thanks,
Mark

Looks like this thread needs a ref... :biggrin:

In summary, designing in good brake bias to a BBK is not quite as simple as using the same size calipers front and rear. Nor did some of the other kits mentioned herein use the exact same f/r caliper with equivalent piston sizes anyway.

Nor really would calculated bias to that extent matter, as one owners NSX might weigh substantially more or less than another, have a different CG, have different aerodynamics/suspension/chassis setup, etc... Perhaps more visible- everyone has vastly different traction budgets on different circuits with vastly different driving career competencies and go-fast budgets. There are also easier mechanisms to deal with this issue.

ST has a good primer article which covers the most basic principles and that just scratches the surface on brake bias. It's a friendly read as beyond this things get pretty thick on the math and attention spans tend to drop off in unison.

http://www.stoptech.com/tech_info/wp_brakebiasandperformance.shtml


Like suspension, any marketable BBK is a series of compromises. IMHO which BBK 'is best' type discussions never amount to much for many of the above reasons evident up to this point. The tendency is to over-simplify the physics. I often see people compare across platforms (often with different hydraulics, pads, tires, and calipers) and that just doesn't work either. Bottom line, if a ducted F50 caliper with a race pad just isn't doing it for someone on a 20 minute session in an NSX I want a ride along. :biggrin:

There were numerous other reasons aside from pure performance why certain manufacturers choose to elect and market the specific components they did. To be blunt, anyone that's ever gone to a Porsche meet knows that most Brembo kits with low dust pads, cross drilled rotors, and eBrakes... are foremost to look good with HRE's. So, I don't even know the Grand Turismo series kit / 4way Lotus is the best product to make that bias point.

If someone wants the very best cost no object pro setup with perfectly neutral bias say maybe some Alcon calipers with dual MC's and custom hydraulic plumbing, Tilton balance bar and billet remote knob, aftermarket ABS controller, data logger with laser ride height sensors and accelerometer so threshold performance can be properly monitored / tuned, motorolla wireless modem so you don't have to pit to wait for feedback, etc... chances are they would never pay for it when I told them the price and go back to the lowly Indy's or something. :biggrin:

There comes a point whereas 'good enough' is fine. Personally, I think Dave's setup is a well factored track pack given the target price, and relative to other offerings and would prove well for the average track day enthusiast. It has dust seals... and each prospective customer would ultimately need to decide realistically on their street/track ratio for themselves anyway.

Personally, on the club level- I'd suggest to weigh the practical points like replacement costs of rotors and re-builds, pad availability for the given caliper profile, maintenance, etc... just as high lest it be a garage queen.

In closing, I have come to understand over the years in many forums that having expensive BBK's are a great source of pride in many owners lives. Still, to be perfectly blunt I'd have to take the cynical approach and make sure they didn't first get lapped by a (2K/miata/bmw) with stock brakes at a local time attack before moving too far along into advanced brake bias design discussions on ubber expensive calipers. :wink:

That said, I'm sure both of you would see consensus if you were to meet-up and talk shop off-line.

Cheers,

John

John, and Dave,

I am fine with your comments and hope you sell a lot kits. Like i said at the end of my 2nd post, we need someone with the know how of dave to fill in for the other vendors that are unfortunatly no longer around.

Take care and keep the parts coming.

I tried to stop myself but to no avail. There is nothing worse to an enthusiast that develops something that might be helpful to some other enthusiasts and has his/her teeth kicked in online. It takes the air right out of you and it happens to often on here.
The brake bias topic has been talked about here 1000's of times and it is not a fear tactic to sell a system that might be "better" in one's opinion. If an advertised "better" product equals "fear" then every vendor in the world is guilty.
Please research the man's history here on Prime and notice the volunteer and more than fair nature in which he has conducted his business before passing judgment.

MJK said:

Dave,

How does this compare to your 997S setup?

Thanks,
Mark

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I think they should be very similar. The pads won't last as long because they are quite a bit smaller, rotors are smaller too. Both of those add up to lower weight which means they should preform better, plus the pads are 2/3 the cost. They have an added benefit of a very common pad dimension which is supplied by many vendors.

Brembo engineer thinks the calipers will work better and have less flex for extended track/race use, say 1 hour sessions+. This is not how most of us use our cars but it is intersting to note.

There has been some concern about bigger rotors on the front and bigger calipers on the front of the NSX. I want to note that every NSX ever delivered came with bigger rotors on the front and 2 piston calipers one the front paired with single piston calipers on the back. What I have done is to follow Honda's lead and maintain the general bias Honda deemed correct for our car.

I can not speak for why others have chosen to deviate from the years of experience Honda brought forward creating the NSX. I have just chosen to take it for granted Honda got it right. Also following the lead of Ferrari, Porsche, Lotus, Aston Martin, Saleen, Noble, Zonda, Toyota, Ford, March, Lola, Radical and every other car manufacturer in the world...why are we having this discussion?

No E-brakes, sorry those are an OEM part which is not handled by the racing distribution warehouse.

I will see if I can post fitting templates tomorrow.

I am unbiased and do not have specific comments on this kit. However, I wanted to comment on "nsxsocal's" comments since I found them outrageous.

What Dave posted is not "FUD" and I am familiar with the term. These are undisputable facts. Both the standard Brembo Gran Turismo, and the former Comptech Powertec brake system are built around using the SAME calipers front and rear and the SAME disc sizes front and rear. This means the brake force generated in hydraulic force and frictional force is the SAME front and rear. Fact, undisputable.

The factory Honda brakes are biased with over 15% more clamping force in the front. Despite being mid engined, the NSX still (like a majority of cars) transfers more weight under braking to the front of the car. Due to this, Honda used an additional piston, larger pistons, and a larger pad in the front brake system for the increased brake force required and also used wider discs up front due to the increased heat generated.

I don't mean this to be offensive, however, if you think that your Brembo GT or Comptech Indy set up is balanced with out modifying your hydraulic pressure, you are simply not using the brakes to their potential where this difference in biasing will be most apparent.

BTW, in your reference to Stoptech, you stated that it was implied that the Stoptech kit has poor balance since the same components are used on the front and rear. However, this is inaccurate. Unlike the Brembo GT and Comptech Powertec kits, Stoptech addressed the biasing issue by designing a special ST40 (their 4 piston caliper) for the NSX which features smaller diameter pistons to reduce hydraulic force in the rear. Further, Comptech on the two NSXes I am familiar with used in pro-level racing using the Powertec kit modified the hydraulic pressure via differential valves to address the bias issue.

.. trying to learn.

if the F/R balance differential stock is 15% .. then does anyone know the balance differential of stoptech and the F50 / lotus setup?

Thanks this is very interesting

WOW...........people are putting larger Rotors AND Calipers on the FRONT of cars NOW...........technology moves SO Fast.

Damn, somebody should tell HONDA and EVERY OTHER CAR Manufacturer..........I was going with the FULL DRUM brake UPGRADE