Need help with IGNITION TIMING ADVANCE

RYU · 16 October 2020

Hi Primates!

Firstly, I'm glad to be posting more regularly here again but I admit, this might be a bit of a long shot request. Can anyone share their ignition timing advance maps from the ECU? PDF, screenshot, cellphone photo.. i'll take it. I'll be sure to share mine as well when it's dialed in.

I'm prototyping an ITB setup and I've gotten drivability pretty much nailed so now it's time to push some power out of this thing. I'm developing this ITB setup along with Adnan at A.S. Motorsports (he's been amazing through this process btw, very supportive. If you decide to buy this kit from him... you won't be disappointed). Anyway, I used up a bunch of my dyno time (nearly 5hrs) tuning/configuring an ECU from scratch. Mostly tuning for drivability so I kept my timing pretty conservative. I just ran out of time. I've been street tuning timing ever since. Street tuning is great but WOT is not safe to do obviously... I'm inputting timing advance at 30'ish degs on avg and just not comfortable to go further. I do have a digital knock amplifier but for anyone that's used those, the calibration can be a bit tricky and it takes some skill and experience to decipher engine noise from actual knock as each engine is different in this regard. The ITBs also make the car quite loud at full song WOT so it makes it even worse.

Being able to see what your timing tables are like will give me great guidance and save some time on the dyno which is expensive. Ultimately the torque curve will help me tune timing advance but seeing your maps can help with some kind of framework.

p.s. doing a search on here points to some folks putting up to 45+ degs of timing advance? That sounds insane to me, but the consensus seems to be that this engine likes a lot of timing. I could see 45 degs in the low load area of the map so it would help to see the full picture.

Thanks in advance.

Honcho · 16 October 2020

RYU said:
Hi Primates!

Firstly, I'm glad to be posting more regularly here again but I admit, this might be a bit of a long shot request. Can anyone share their ignition timing advance maps from the ECU? PDF, screenshot, cellphone photo.. i'll take it. I'll be sure to share mine as well when it's dialed in.

I'm prototyping an ITB setup and I've gotten drivability pretty much nailed so now it's time to push some power out of this thing. I'm developing this ITB setup along with Adnan at A.S. Motorsports (he's been amazing through this process btw, very supportive. If you decide to buy this kit from him... you won't be disappointed). Anyway, I used up a bunch of my dyno time (nearly 5hrs) tuning/configuring an ECU from scratch. Mostly tuning for drivability so I kept my timing pretty conservative. I just ran out of time. I've been street tuning timing ever since. Street tuning is great but WOT is not safe to do obviously... I'm inputting timing advance at 30'ish degs on avg and just not comfortable to go further. I do have a digital knock amplifier but for anyone that's used those, the calibration can be a bit tricky and it takes some skill and experience to decipher engine noise from actual knock as each engine is different in this regard. The ITBs also make the car quite loud at full song WOT so it makes it even worse.

Being able to see what your timing tables are like will give me great guidance and save some time on the dyno which is expensive. Ultimately the torque curve will help me tune timing advance but seeing your maps can help with some kind of framework.

p.s. doing a search on here points to some folks putting up to 45+ degs of timing advance? That sounds insane to me, but the consensus seems to be that this engine likes a lot of timing. I could see 45 degs in the low load area of the map so it would help to see the full picture.

Thanks in advance.

Regan I can e-mail you the factory timing maps tonight. Just send me your email again. ppp5150 (at) gmail

RYU · 16 October 2020

Honcho said:
Regan I can e-mail you the factory timing maps tonight. Just send me your email again. ppp5150 (at) gmail

That would be incredible!!! you have mail

docjohn · 16 October 2020

subscribed.....in advance.....

RYU · 16 October 2020

docjohn said:
subscribed.....in advance.....

but some additional retard might be needed..

docjohn · 16 October 2020

RYU said:
but some additional retard might be needed..

I would consider myself timing challenged....

Honcho · 16 October 2020

RYU said:
That would be incredible!!! you have mail

Just remember that the base timing maps are subject to all sorts of real-time corrections based on lots of factors (we're still figuring them all out), so the timing you see on the map isn't necessarily the timing that the engine actually sees at the spark plug.

RYU · 16 October 2020

Yes, I wouldn't expect anything less from OEMs. I guess that's where the assumptions have to fill in. Like I'd have to assume that timing table is based on normal conditions and all the other compensation tables are to adjust for abnormal conditions. Granted what Honda considered normal or ideal could be a super narrow band.

That's an excellent point though. This exercise could be totally useless lol. Have you guys found any clues as of yet?

Honcho said:
Just remember that the base timing maps are subject to all sorts of real-time corrections based on lots of factors (we're still figuring them all out), so the timing you see on the map isn't necessarily the timing that the engine actually sees at the spark plug.

mskrotzki · 17 October 2020

While it is not directly germane to this discussion, we have found that the ProSpeed RDX chips have left the OEM timing untouched. I should get my car back next week and I've installed the Demon II in my ECU. I have the ProSpeed Series 3 bin written to the Demon II. I have TunerPro RT installed and connected and am raring to go.

Denver has pollution test requirement and I have to get my car inspected to renew my registration -- so no playing until that happens. (I've never had trouble with any of the ProSpeed tunes.)

I'll keep everyone posted

RYU · 17 October 2020

mskrotzki said:
While it is not directly germane to this discussion, we have found that the ProSpeed RDX chips have left the OEM timing untouched. I should get my car back next week and I've installed the Demon II in my ECU. I have the ProSpeed Series 3 bin written to the Demon II. I have TunerPro RT installed and connected and am raring to go.

Denver has pollution test requirement and I have to get my car inspected to renew my registration -- so no playing until that happens. (I've never had trouble with any of the ProSpeed tunes.)

I'll keep everyone posted

That is super interesting. Thanks for sharing. I recently drove a Prospeed tuned I/H/E NSX so that's been my baseline as it's been so long since I've driven an NSX remotely close to stock. I'll be driving a bone stock NSX with just the I/H/E mods this weekend as well if luck goes my way.

I'm surprised Prospeed left timing alone. Now i'm even more interested to see the base timing map. Again, with the caveat that there is little to no visibility around the timing compensation tables.

To your point.. I looked up ye ole Prospeed thread. Towards the end of the first post he says he added "a bit more timing..." Well, that's interesting.
http://www.nsxprime.com/forum/showthread.php/157469-Prospeed-rdx-injectors-amp-ecu-rom-tune-kit

RYU · 17 October 2020

For folks that have peered into the OEM ECU code (@Honcho, @mskrotzki) what does the Honda choose as the primary load axis for the maps? I'm assuming it's MAP Manifold Absolute Pressure signal but perhaps it's TPS Throttle Position?

mskrotzki · 17 October 2020

RYU said:
For folks that have peered into the OEM ECU code (@Honcho, @mskrotzki) what does the Honda choose as the primary load axis for the maps? I'm assuming it's MAP Manifold Absolute Pressure signal but perhaps it's TPS Throttle Position?

There is a mountain of information and privately tuning the 91-94 factory EDU in this thread (4-pages long and growing).

http://www.nsxprime.com/forum/showt...g-the-OEM-ECU/page4?highlight=intake+manifold

Installing a Moates Demon II emulator in your ECU -- (minimal soldering required, all explained in the above thread), a wide band O2 sensor in one or both of your headers (I have but one), installing TunerPro RT in a laptop (please pay the requested $39 --even though you don't have to) and join the Facebook group

https://www.facebook.com/groups/nsxtuners/members/

There is a path to a GoogleDocs page in the FB group that has all the .bin .xdf and .adx files you need to read all the bin files that are so far downloaded.

All the members of the FB group would, I'm sure, be elated if you join us. If you know of others that would be interested -- please ask them to join in.

I have long followed your posts and hope you join in.

Short note: I don't do FB but my wife, Nancy Crow, does -- so she is really me, in only this situation!

Mark

RYU · 17 October 2020

I'd be delighted to join. Thanks for the invite! I'm not FB much but i'll poke around.

I'll also load the stock ECU timing map and extrapolate that into my HKS F-Con Vpro. I'll report back with my butt dyno observations. I can definitely attest that driveability is noticeably improved with the HKS ECU than compared to stock. I just completed my 2nd drive on a stock ECU NSX to add to the Prospeed tuned NSX from last week. So I know you guys are making AMAZING progress with the stock ECU and I fully support that and encourage it, I also want to mention that while the HKS is still old by today's standards, the resolution i'm able to configure does yield to quite a smoother driving experience compared to stock. Though, compared to the Prospeed tune that I drove, while that car has great TQ down low (likely from the tune or a fresh 10k mile motor?) it does have it's inconsistences in the power curve. I'm not sure if anyone notices them or perhaps you just don't care. I don't think it's unsafe or anything.. just a lack of smoothing overall.

This is great work guys. I'm pumped about this!

mskrotzki said:
There is a mountain of information and privately tuning the 91-94 factory EDU in this thread (4-pages long and growing).

http://www.nsxprime.com/forum/showt...g-the-OEM-ECU/page4?highlight=intake+manifold

Installing a Moates Demon II emulator in your ECU -- (minimal soldering required, all explained in the above thread), a wide band O2 sensor in one or both of your headers (I have but one), installing TunerPro RT in a laptop (please pay the requested $39 --even though you don't have to) and join the Facebook group

https://www.facebook.com/groups/nsxtuners/members/

There is a path to a GoogleDocs page in the FB group that has all the .bin .xdf and .adx files you need to read all the bin files that are so far downloaded.

All the members of the FB group would, I'm sure, be elated if you join us. If you know of others that would be interested -- please ask them to join in.

I have long followed your posts and hope you join in.

Short note: I don't do FB but my wife, Nancy Crow, does -- so she is really me, in only this situation!

Mark

RYU · 18 October 2020

I just finished combining the OEM Main timing map with the OEM VTEC timing map then extrapolating it to 32*32 to build one base timing map I can use. It took longer than I expected. However It was interesting seeing cell by cell where they were manipulating the timing in the power band, but ultimately it's a mere guide for me as ITB loading is so different than MAP and I was forced to make educated assumptions on cutover points and what not. The OEM map is quite conservative so I'm loading it as is into my HKS and will take some data logs.

I'm very excited about this. Thanks gents! Nsxprime FTW!

RYU · 18 October 2020

I'm also using my own fail-safes compensation maps for IAT, MAP, and Speed. It would be interesting to see the OEM tables for these one day.

jvtec95 · 22 October 2020

We can share any table you may need, but you may want to download TunerPro and then you can look at anything you'd need. It's free, though I highly recommend supporting the creator if you find it useful. The registration is only $39 which is way less than many tuning softwares cost.

The fuel and timing maps I believe are MAP based for load, but the columns are labelled 0-100% rather than in-hg vacuum. John has been looking more closely at the ECU parameters, there is a pair of TPS vs alpha-N table parameters, so Honda may have toyed with that. If that can be figured out it would be great for ITB setup, especially if you can switch between speed-density and alpha-N for different conditions.

Also, the NSX ignition and timing maps are 16x20 rather than more common ECUs which are 10x20, so they are already a bit more refined. It's not a huge deal, as values used are interpolated between cells (the ECU doesn't just skip between discrete cells).

If you are having trouble listening for detonation, you could always tie into the knock sensor signal and listen through a good set of isolated headphones. I haven't done this on my NSX, but my wideband controller on my Integra has a headphone out jack that ties into the knock sensor signal. Here's a DIY article, note, I haven't done this but seems like others have:

https://www.autospeed.com/cms/a_113326/article

Just don't tune by finding knock and then backing off, it's not much better than guessing and you are more likely to damage things and end up running closer to a dangerous timing advance. On the dyno you should advance timing until you see no more tq gains (MBT - maximum brake torque), and then back off a bit. In most cases this could be quite far away from knock; target for max cylinder pressure is 15° ATDC for MBT.

Hope this helps, we're all learning and it's exciting to finally have the tools to learn and utilize the OEM ECU.

Need help with IGNITION TIMING ADVANCE

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