Torque VS Horsepower... 100ftlbs TQ gain on a N/A J-Swap?

TQ vs HP... 65-100ftlbs TQ gain from a J-Swap?

So it appears a mild build J36 stroker using OEM parts for about $5,000 can put down 290-320whp and 265-300ftlbs of torque and this retains the NSX transmission

although HP potential is roughly the same as an NSX, but the J36 torque is usually 60-100 ft.lbs higher.
NSX's with all the bolt-ons average only have 265whp/200tq. The J36 is really a massive power increase for N/A especially around 5500-7000 RPM where the nsx is still climbing and low on power and the J series is already flat at max power till redline the difference appears to be easily over 50-60whp / 75wtq under the curve...

Even a 350whp CTSC NSX only puts out 250wtq. (see link to dyno registry post #3 and #6 ) and potentially a mild build J series (280-310wtq)

A mild build J36 build can potentially put out almost as much TQ as a 400whp NSX turbo (320-330wtq).

Can anyone help me understand what the actual performance difference may be in acceleration if whp is similar but much higher tq?
Could one expect a 310whp / 290wtq from a stroker j36 in NSX to perform/accelerate just as fast as an average low boost CTSC 350whp/250wtq?

comparing both engines with bolt-ons and standalone EMS properly setup.

J36 stroker (j32 block with j37 crank all oem parts)
290-320whp with 260-300wtq
very flat torque curves some builds even make more TQ than HP

NSX engine 3.0 or 3.2
270-310whp with 200-220wtq

NSX 3.6 stroker 333whp 265wtq
http://www.nsxprime.com/forum/showthread.php/85793-3-6L-ScienceofSpeed-Engine-(NA-Stroker)

NSX average low boost CTSC 340-360whp 240-260wtq
http://www.nsxprime.com/forum/showthread.php/69409-Dyno-CTSC-6lb-kit-Autorotor-2005-NSX-T
http://www.nsxprime.com/forum/showthread.php/109312-NSX-Dyno-Library-Registry

yes an nsx engine can be built/stroked to 350whp/265wtq but that may cost 20k including the engine (god bless you if you get a bad build and it blows up) where the J36 stroker 300whp/280tq engine would be easily replaceable/built/repaired for around 5k including the engine cost.
There are also rumors/claims online of J36 build's pushing 350whp but i am yet find any dynos proving this. and many dynos are limited budget swaps that are not even properly tuned and with no bolt-ons or anything and they easily push 270whp/230lbs of torque which is just as good an NSX engine with all the bolt-ons.

Also take note when comparing dynos the j series make peak power very smoothly and over couple thousand rpm where the nsx engine usuallay only peaks for a couple hundred rpm. if you Analise the last 1500prm of the rev band The J-series below dynos below shows a solid 290-310hp from 5500-7000 where the NSX 3.6 SOS stroker in the link above shows 280-333whp over the same 5500-7000 rpm. thats big difference in power. The CTSC also has similar behavior 300-360whp from 6000-7500.

theres also the 60-100lb j-swap weight reduction to the rear of the NSX which is favorable as well. Especially if comparing that a CTSC is confirmed to add about 60lbs, that's roughly a 120-160lbs variable from J swap to C30-C32 w/ CTSC in the rear.

any thoughts?
thinking of putting the rare NSX engine in storage and going a beating up some J series for 100k miles until the day shall ever come that i may want to sell the NSX and put the c30 back in?


Although supposedly there are N/A J's pushing over 300TQ at the wheels, But I preferred to include links and dyno sheets from some realistic examples of J swaps power-band:

http://www.j32a.com/index.php?topic=1304.0
http://acurazine.com/forums/performance-parts-modifications-112/finally-dynod-minor-fap-lol-782787/

This guy Got 322whp and 292wtq (over 300whp from 5000rpm to redline) !!
http://www.j32a.com/index.php?topic=2303.15


<a href="http://s172.photobucket.com/user/tiago3/media/dyno_heads_cams_zpsaf431586_c507cdde02881fae2a7f61bc9bedf384d9d4b514.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i172.photobucket.com/albums/w15/tiago3/dyno_heads_cams_zpsaf431586_c507cdde02881fae2a7f61bc9bedf384d9d4b514.jpg" border="0" alt=" photo dyno_heads_cams_zpsaf431586_c507cdde02881fae2a7f61bc9bedf384d9d4b514.jpg"/></a>

<a href="http://s172.photobucket.com/user/tiago3/media/P2R_AccordDyno.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i172.photobucket.com/albums/w15/tiago3/P2R_AccordDyno.jpg" border="0" alt=" photo P2R_AccordDyno.jpg"/></a>

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<a href="http://s172.photobucket.com/user/tiago3/media/OC7xg59.png.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i172.photobucket.com/albums/w15/tiago3/OC7xg59.png" border="0" alt=" photo OC7xg59.png"/></a>

I believe torque is a measurement of force but not a measurement of work.
Horsepower is a measurement of work so takes into account rpm over time.

The j series engine is a long stroke low rpm engine configuration.
This yields higher torque numbers but lower hp as it does not rev as high.

The c series is a short stroke high rpm build.
The torque output is less but the horsepower calculation is higher due to the rpm.

I believe acceleration is dependent on the amount of work an engine can do and so is horsepower dependant.

The c30 3.6 stroker should out accelerate a j36 stroker.
The j36 stroker would have more midrange horsepower due to its long stroke so would expect it would be a good application for daily driving, as that's what the j series engine was designed to do.

It's important to remember that:

HP = (Torque x RPM) / 5252

HP is dependent on the torque at a given RPM, so it does not matter if the motor is a Turbo 4cyl or a NA V12, if (for example) you're making 360wtq at 6,000rpm, you're making 410whp at 6,000rpm.

The C motors rev higher than the J's and make more power up top. The J makes a lot more torque but operates at a lower rpm and likely choke off at higher RPMs. If you can keep the torque flat as RPMs climb, the HP at 8,000rpm will be VERY high in a J motor, but i'm not sure if the motor is that efficient.

JD Cross said:

I believe torque is a measurement of force but not a measurement of work.
Horsepower is a measurement of work so takes into account rpm over time.

The j series engine is a long stroke low rpm engine configuration.
This yields higher torque numbers but lower hp as it does not rev as high.

The c series is a short stroke high rpm build.
The torque output is less but the horsepower calculation is higher due to the rpm.

I believe acceleration is dependent on the amount of work an engine can do and so is horsepower dependant.

The c30 3.6 stroker should out accelerate a j36 stroker.
The j36 stroker would have more midrange horsepower due to its long stroke so would expect it would be a good application for daily driving, as that's what the j series engine was designed to do.

Click to expand...

stuntman said:

It's important to remember that:

HP = (Torque x RPM) / 5252

HP is dependent on the torque at a given RPM, so it does not matter if the motor is a Turbo 4cyl or a NA V12, if (for example) you're making 360wtq at 6,000rpm, you're making 410whp at 6,000rpm.

The C motors rev higher than the J's and make more power up top. The J makes a lot more torque but operates at a lower rpm and likely choke off at higher RPMs. If you can keep the torque flat as RPMs climb, the HP at 8,000rpm will be VERY high in a J motor, but i'm not sure if the motor is that efficient.

Click to expand...

Thanks for your input guys, this exactly the discussion I hoping to open up, the purpose of this thread is to hopefully bring froward new info or experience that may determine if/which $5k J series build would possibly best suit the NSX as a $20k C30 3.6 or $10k CTSC Alternative.

As the famous Carol Shelby is constantly quoted "HP sells cars and TQ wins races" and in this case were taking allot more TQ than a C30 and more TQ than a CTSC and were not talking much less HP. I would be reluctant to sacrifice 50hp to gain 50tq but we are not, Reality is comparing the C30 3.6 to J36 may be sacrificing a small peak of 20-30whp and 500rpm overall to gain 50wtq across the board as well a broader whp curve which may be a good trade off.

there is limited information on the J36 but appears 7000rpm is a common RPM limit but there are builds tuning them with upgraded headwork just as high as our C engines.
I cant speak in detail about what the upper limits of the J36 are and hope someone else with more knowledge can chime in, there are many variables of J32 J35 and J37 parts that are all interchangeable to make that engine do just about anything you want. a J32 out of a CL-type S can rev to similar limits as a C30.


Yes i have read through allot of mathematics and understand the that HP is somewhat "virtual" it is a figure that is a result of TQ * RPM without TQ you have no HP.
But the math does not really give me the real world performance.

I agree a C30 3.6 stroker may out accelerate a J36 stroker but the big difference is that c30 3.6 stroker is going to cost you $20k and a couple of months build/replacement time and limited shops that can build one.
the J36 will cost you $5k including the engine and you can build/replace one within a week or two with junkyard parts.

The C30 3.6 may accelerate faster in a straight line assuming 5000-8000 RPM shifts as the most acceleration being 7000-8000, but coming out of a turn at 60mph and stomping the gas at 4000RPM in a J36 you may have 75-100WTQ more of "passing power" for a the few crucial seconds it takes to make a pass.

The NSX has a huge braking and cornering advantage over many of the new huge 3700-4000 lbs piggy cars out there today. But, I constantly encounter my self almost bored of rubbing paint off the back bumper of the slower car in front of me turn after turn, and the driver that wont let you pass, but cant lose you either even if he constantly accelerates faster out of turns, and eventually once he lets you pass him, within a few turns you find yourself way ahead of him since you are actually faster than him overall. A little extra 75wtq of grunt may be all that is needed to get that pass earlier and be on your merry way ahead.

So the real question just how much of a difference can it be between the two because I like the aspects of an N/A car but cant justify 20K for a SOS 3.6 compared to a turbo. if the J36 is happy medium it should be heavily considered.

these would be the two Dyno's to compare

I know the formula to calculate hp. I think the point I was trying to make is the nature of the power produced by each engine. While the j engine may be rpm restricted due to insufficient breathing ultimately it's piston speed that will limit the j engine. At 8 k rpm the j piston speed will be about 25 mps. This is approaching racing engine speeds and I suspect would require some beefing up of the bottom end to live sat 8 k. On the other hand the c series at 8 k is a conservative 21 mps and so could go higher than a built j. A c series at 9500 rpm would have the same piston speed as a j at 8k. So the theoretical hp from a built c should always be higher than built j. No question the j is a low cost engine designed for mid range power, and in day to day driving would likely perform well. I guess part of driving an NSX is the c30 running from 6-8 k and the aural sense it triggers. The j series wouldn't be able to duplicate this. If the high revving aspect of a sportscar is not a priority then the j would certainly be be a low cost power source

JD Cross said:

I know the formula to calculate hp. I think the point I was trying to make is the nature of the power produced by each engine. While the j engine may be rpm restricted due to insufficient breathing ultimately it's piston speed that will limit the j engine. At 8 k rpm the j piston speed will be about 25 mps. This is approaching racing engine speeds and I suspect would require some beefing up of the bottom end to live sat 8 k. On the other hand the c series at 8 k is a conservative 21 mps and so could go higher than a built j. A c series at 9500 rpm would have the same piston speed as a j at 8k. So the theoretical hp from a built c should always be higher than built j. No question the j is a low cost engine designed for mid range power, and in day to day driving would likely perform well. I guess part of driving an NSX is the c30 running from 6-8 k and the aural sense it triggers. The j series wouldn't be able to duplicate this. If the high revving aspect of a sportscar is not a priority then the j would certainly be be a low cost power source

Click to expand...

I agree with your overall understanding of the RPM limits, but the fact is no engine builder is spinning the C30 to 9500RPM.
And i will admit my understandings of engine building is basic and very likely less than your understanding.
But you seem to be comparing a stock C30 limits to stroker J36 and not stroker to stroker since SOS 3.6 strokers are also cutting off at 7500RPM as per the dyno attached here, a stroker is a stroker the same piston limits apply to either the J or C stroker.

The general RPM limit performance differences would be more applicable if comparing a 5000rpm limit engine to an 8000 rpm limit engine when in reality a J series will do 7000RPM which is still considered high revving engine especially if C30/36 strokers are generally only doing 7500.

Keep in mind there are various ways to build a j-series out of the Honda parts bin that can increase RPM limits.

I personally like to look at what the engine power looks like 1500PRM before the redline (6000 for C30/36 and 5500 for J36) as well as around 4000rpm on any engine and to be honest the c30/36 4000 and 6000RPM numbers look very close to the J36 4000 and 5500RPM numbers and throughout the entire powerband, to be honest the only difference is the 10-20 WHP peak the c30/36 gets over the final 500RPM, which comes with a hefty cost hike.

I'm not trying to claim the J36 is superior to the C30/36 by any means. But if the J36 is even 90% as capable, that makes it a viable alternative for people seeking N/A power and may reduce the amount of C series blocks and heads going to junk yard.

I have seen a dyno of the SOS 3.8 stoker using a 88m stroke maxing out at 8300 RPM but that is an even more extreme engine running fast piston speeds, and the cost for a single build may be as much as 5 built J-series.
http://www.nsxprime.com/forum/showthread.php/85793-3-6L-ScienceofSpeed-Engine-(NA-Stroker)/page7

See a sample SOS 3.6L dyno below, you can clearly see the RPM limit has been reduced from the base run

http://www.nsxprime.com/forum/showthread.php/85793-3-6L-ScienceofSpeed-Engine-(NA-Stroker)
<a href="http://s172.photobucket.com/user/tiago3/media/36L_Dyno.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i172.photobucket.com/albums/w15/tiago3/36L_Dyno.jpg" border="0" alt=" photo 36L_Dyno.jpg"/></a>

You sound convinced a j is the way to go so let us know how it works My comments are not for or against a j or a c but rather the characteristics of various engine architectures. Almost all racing engines are over square, almost all low rpm torque maximizing engines are under square. There are reasons why engine builders have chosen the various bore/stroke ratios for each application.

The highest torque per liter is the 458 Italia at 89 foot pounds per liter and it is no a lower rpm car. In fact the cars with the most torque per liter are all high rpm cars. I'm sorry to tell you this, but NO WAY in hell will a Acura/Honda motor make that much torque per liter as indicated by your posts. You are basically saying that a 3.6 liter can make 330-340 (300rwtq) which is not only crazy but would be a new world record. I won't even touch the outlandish 320rwtq claims. This is simply BS. Inaccurate dynos or outright fraud (where the car is actually boosted and they claim it is NA). Do you really believe Honda would have left that kind of power on the table especially when it would have done wonders for the RL and now the TLX?

Hell even the 458 Italia's claim is BS since pretty much every CUSTOMER dyno I've seen of the car only dynos around 320rwtq AT 4.5 liters. Hell the old 5.7 GM motors would only dyno around 300rwtq and the 4.6 Mustang GT was around 320rwtq.

JD Cross said:

You sound convinced a j is the way to go so let us know how it works My comments are not for or against a j or a c but rather the characteristics of various engine architectures. Almost all racing engines are over square, almost all low rpm torque maximizing engines are under square. There are reasons why engine builders have chosen the various bore/stroke ratios for each application.

Click to expand...

I'm not convinced of anything, simply probing for further information regarding undeniable similarities of J36 to the stroker 3.6 C series.
I simply did not agree that a 500-800 RPM difference would make such a drastic change to the high revving feel of a C30/32 nor can a C30 spin 9500RPM
As far as choices engine builders make, its also clear honda abandoned the 90 degree DOHC V6.
Honda in 2004 increased the S2000 from 2.0L to 2.2L and thus had to reduce the RPM limit from 9000RPM to 8000RPM in exchange for more torque and to compensate for increased stroke. Apparently it was not a bad decision.
Some Honda development shows earlier versions of the NEW NSX were going to use a j-series variant anyway, and the J evolves from the C so its not outside of NSX context. This is the most viable option, its not like were talking about putting a toyota or chevy engine in a NSX here. http://www.cb7tuner.com/vbb/showthread.php?t=203238
Also quoted from Honda development HPD for the pikes peak NSX "The main change that we made to the base NSX race car was to swap the engine from the naturally aspirated 3.0L, 90-degree V6 to the more modern 2.8L, 60-degree V6 twin-turbo engine. This engine was tuned to make about 500HP at sea level, and substantially increase torque from the base engine." http://www.nsxprime.com/forum/showthread.php/170868-HPD-NSX-2012-Pikes-Peak-Build-SIMPLY-AMAZING!

I'm not for or against, simply considering it. I'm craving more power like many others but I'm not a fan of turbo lag and considering all options. I have owned and sold one love fab kit, a CTSC and still have a BBSC in the garage, and never installed any of them, since worried about reducing the amazing reliability of my OEM internal engine that Ive had for 8 years and absolultley love the sound of my c30. So much that I'm probably the only person with full interior and A/C at 2500lbs, that's how much effort I have put into keeping the C30 N/A. So anyone that knows me I'd be last person to remove the c30 unless it was for good purpose.

cptnsx said:

The highest torque per liter is the 458 Italia at 89 foot pounds per liter and it is no a lower rpm car. In fact the cars with the most torque per liter are all high rpm cars. I'm sorry to tell you this, but NO WAY in hell will a Acura/Honda motor make that much torque per liter as indicated by your posts. You are basically saying that a 3.6 liter can make 330-340 (300rwtq) which is not only crazy but would be a new world record. I won't even touch the outlandish 320rwtq claims. This is simply BS. Inaccurate dynos or outright fraud (where the car is actually boosted and they claim it is NA). Do you really believe Honda would have left that kind of power on the table especially when it would have done wonders for the RL and now the TLX?

Hell even the 458 Italia's claim is BS since pretty much every CUSTOMER dyno I've seen of the car only dynos around 320rwtq AT 4.5 liters. Hell the old 5.7 GM motors would only dyno around 300rwtq and the 4.6 Mustang GT was around 320rwtq.

Click to expand...

I'm not saying anything really, I'm only re-posting and gathering whatever info I can find other forums, and have filtered a good bit out already, as mentioned in my first post, I too was skeptical of the 300wtq+ thus why there is question mark in the thread title.

I only took seriously the only Dynos that I posted, which where with 290-320whp and 265-275wtq which compared to a stock NSX that puts out 188wtq (see dyno above) that's almost 100wtq improvement.
Would you agree that the 270wtq is possible? it is actually inline with the C30/36 stroker numbers after 10 years of engine advancement/development.

If its realistic to build a J36 with about 290-310whp and 260-270wtq, that would provide good 20-50whp and at least 40-50wtq over a C30/32 with all the bolt-ons (non stroker) and thus is a decent C30/3.6 stroker alternative.

And obviously we wont even get into the huge advantages the honda oem parts bin has for J-series over the c30/32 when turbocharged.
I kinda figured the back up plan, is if J36 power does not meet the expectations for an extra 5-7k turbo will make more power than an turbo C30/32

As far your question about whether honda would leave that kind of power on the table, I don't know, but I do know Honda is just as capable in engineering as ferrari see F1, see honda jet engines, See the NSX released in 1989, see arynton senna race results... (just because their market does not focus on high performance cars does not mean they don't have the capable engineering ability). Ferrari is not the leader of automotive engineering I don't know who is, it might be some small company in Sweden for all anyone of us really knows... What I do know is that Honda does have a habit of making their engines capable of matching or exceeding at wheels with bolt-ons & stand alone ems whatever they are rated oem at the crank. thus the c30 is 270crank rated and can do 270-280whp, C32 290 crank can do 290-300whp, j32 260 crank can do 260whp+. Thus the more recent J35 and J37's (J35Y4, J37A1, J37A4 which parts fit into the J32) are rated 300-310hp and 265-275tq at the crank leading one to believe those numbers may be possibly be matched or exceeded at the wheels with modifications. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honda_J_engine#J32A

torque at the wheels is about four times the numbers you are banding about,

torque is higher at the wheels than at the crank, not lower.

Patricio said:

http://acurazine.com/forums/performance-parts-modifications-112/finally-dynod-minor-fap-lol-782787/

<a href="http://s172.photobucket.com/user/tiago3/media/60100.png.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i172.photobucket.com/albums/w15/tiago3/60100.png" border="0" alt=" photo 60100.png"/></a>

Click to expand...

It appears this 3.5L J-series has quite a bit of mods:

-Port and polished heads
-Oversized intake valves
-type-s cams
-CP Pistons (10.25:1 CR)
-Cunningham rods
-cai
-catback
-stroker

I'm not sure what it would cost to build that motor but It can't be cheap. With similar work, i'm sure you could get over 300whp on a C motor at a higher RPM but less torque.

There's no replacement for displacement. If you're unwilling to string out a C motor at high RPM, or just want low RPM grunt, the J is probably the way to go.

As an observation, the J series really tanks at 6,000rpm. I'm not sure what causes the restriction, but the torque really falls off bad and that's where the C starts to shine. The C drops off at 7,000rpm but not very bad and with an aftermarket intake manifold, you can get some pretty good peak power gains by reducing the torque drop off above 7K rpm.

Perhaps another difference between the j and c is the direct injection in a j vs. port injection in a c. If the c engine had modern direct injection it's output might be closer to 120 hp/l. If someone were to develop/adapt DI heads for the c I'm sure we would see a revival of the c series.

stuntman said:

It appears this 3.5L J-series has quite a bit of mods:

-Port and polished heads
-Oversized intake valves
-type-s cams
-CP Pistons (10.25:1 CR)
-Cunningham rods
-cai
-catback
-stroker

I'm not sure what it would cost to build that motor but It can't be cheap. With similar work, i'm sure you could get over 300whp on a C motor at a higher RPM but less torque.

There's no replacement for displacement. If you're unwilling to string out a C motor at high RPM, or just want low RPM grunt, the J is probably the way to go.

As an observation, the J series really tanks at 6,000rpm. I'm not sure what causes the restriction, but the torque really falls off bad and that's where the C starts to shine. The C drops off at 7,000rpm but not very bad and with an aftermarket intake manifold, you can get some pretty good peak power gains by reducing the torque drop off above 7K rpm.

Click to expand...

The main appeal of a J series is how cheap parts are.
Full builds cost 5k including the motor itself. Max all out builds are 7k
And parts are plentiful and in stock and no need to wait for rare C series parts.
It's virtually as disposable as it can get.

Have you considered any of the 3.5 l Nissan engines?
They too are plentiful and should be inexpensive.
They are oversquare and so would potentially rev higher than a j series with similar power.

Patricio said:

The main appeal of a J series is how cheap parts are.
Full builds cost 5k including the motor itself. Max all out builds are 7k
And parts are plentiful and in stock and no need to wait for rare C series parts.
It's virtually as disposable as it can get.

Click to expand...

There's no replacement for displacement. I have still yet to see a 7K rpm J motor dyno that didn't tank at 6K rpm. If it can remain pretty flat at 7K, I would give it a shot!

http://www.v6performance.net/forums/7g-honda-accord-performance-discussion/213625-j35-dyno-pull.html

Mods:
J32A3 Block and pistons
J35 Crank and Connecting Rods
TL-S cams
Jpipe and PCDs
Fujitia CAI
AEM FIC



http://www.v6performance.net/forums...schwiggys-car-***pics-vids***-56k-beware.html

J35: (tanks hard at 6,200rpm)



Not sure i'm sold...

stuntman said:

There's no replacement for displacement. I have still yet to see a 7K rpm J motor dyno that didn't tank at 6K rpm. If it can remain pretty flat at 7K, I would give it a shot!

http://www.v6performance.net/forums/7g-honda-accord-performance-discussion/213625-j35-dyno-pull.html

Mods:
J32A3 Block and pistons
J35 Crank and Connecting Rods
TL-S cams
Jpipe and PCDs
Fujitia CAI
AEM FIC

http://www.v6performance.net/forums...schwiggys-car-***pics-vids***-56k-beware.html

J35: (tanks hard at 6,200rpm)

Not sure i'm sold...

Click to expand...

Billy, I know what you mean on the dynos you posted, while researching the topic I too came across some results like that and when reading through those threads keep in mind many of the J series threads are junkyard parts bin builds without the CL-type-s cams and DYI street tuning and that is if tuned at all, many of those guys are using whichever oem ECU from engine they started with. I think the builds above may be $1000-$2000 backyard builds if that.

There are many many choices in the J series parts bin, anyone with an accord and $500 in their pocket and mechanical abilities can go buy j37 crank and a few other basic parts, that does not make a proper J36 build.

From my understanding:
The J23a3 CL type S cams and heads are a key to what your asking about and the engine not tanking at 6000 rpm (and they go for decent money so many many don't have them).

There more to it really putting all the proper parts together for a NSX quality build is what I'm talking about here, and what I think/hope the first dynos i posted represent., and they don't tank at 6000 RPM

Have any links to the proper built motors? The first one I posted appears to have the TL-S cam...


Edit:

This one isn't terrible for the 3.5L J35 (07-08 TL-S) :

http://acurazine.com/forums/performance-parts-modifications-112/my-path-300whp-6mt-type-s-893848/


And here's a more comparable 3.2L J32A2 (02-03 TL-S):

http://acurazine.com/forums/dynograph-gallery-51/j32a2-dyno-770600/


J32A2 with some intake and exhaust work:

http://www.acura-legend.com/vbulletin/f21/legend-vs-maxima-28950/index3.html



To Recap: (bore x stroke)

C30A: 90 x 78mm @7,100rpm
C32B: 93mm x 78mm @7,300rpm
J32A2: 89mm x 86mm @6,200rpm
J35A8: 89mm x 93mm @6,200rpm

stuntman said:

Have any links to the proper built motors? The first one I posted appears to have the TL-S cam...

Click to expand...

Thanks for your willingness to explore the possibilities billy,
On my first post I did include the link to the threads of the dynos I posted

here they they are
http://www.j32a.com/index.php?topic=1304.0
http://acurazine.com/forums/performa...ap-lol-782787/

This guy Got 322whp and 292wtq (over 300whp from 5000rpm to redline)
there a good bit of info but you can not see images (the dyno) unless you become a member or it may have been deleted from being an old thread, but after the dyno post a few comments were made about the different characteristics.
http://www.j32a.com/index.php?topic=2303.15

Again Billy, I am by no means a J series expert, i have only been researching this for a few weeks, and was hoping someone else, such as your self or another knowledgeable member could take whatever I've been able to gather and further research the topic with more understanding.... Type-S cams are just one ingredient there are many more variables, specific heads, pistons ect and that's only from the OEM parts bin, add a few non oem racing parts and the 300whp/275wtq starts coming to light. There are a few different "recipes" for the OEM parts bin J36.

there is a guy Paul who goes by NVA-AV6, he shows up in allot of forums and built a few in his garage and spoke openly about "his version" of the specs. http://www.v6performance.net/forums/7g-honda-accord-performance-discussion/191426-j36-13.html

Jeff Evans of Evans tuning in NJ is a well respected Honda tuner whom supposedly has J36 experience, I've been emailing him back and fourth and he agreed the 320+whp and around 280wtq+ potential is real. I will update as i hear more info.

To the OP, first I want to say that I like how you are trying to explore new and cheaper options for the NSX as we all know the C30/C32 engines are not cheap to play around with. That being said I don't have any experience building either a C3X or J3X engine. I do have plans for my C30 which involve larger high comp pistons, re balancing the bottom end and bigger valves. Like some of the previous posts, the C3X engine was built for high RPM and the J3X was built for mid range power usable on the street. The experience I have is from building the F2X and K2X engines and even though they differ from the V6's they have some parts which can help you with your goals. Not many rev the C3X engine very high because of the high cost that something may happen, however the chances are slim. Like most Honda engines they are built to be able to take much more RPM then what the factory redline is. The OEM K20a2 can safely be taken past 9200 RPMs once the single valve springs are changed to dual valve springs, same goes for the F22, I used to take that engine OEM past 9300 RPMs supercharged at 18PSI with a NOVI 1200 blower and I never had issues with it. Both are at least 1000 RPMs beyond the factory redline and both had no issues. The C3X biggest issue is it was design in a time when cars in Japan could not have more than 280HP and therefore Honda made the intake and exhaust very restrictive. Not to mention the low compression of the C3X hurts it for HP as well. if you want to get the most out of a C3X engine you must get bigger pistons with high compression (OEM Titanium Rods are good), a plenum intake manifold or ITB, long tube headers (pride is amazing), a proper flowing exhaust, higher flow oil pump, bigger injectors and tuning. Also remember the C3X engines were hand balanced from factory, which is a big reason they have lasted so long without hiccups for the most part. Because of the High RPM capabilities the C3X engines will always outperform the lower RPM J3X engines not only in power but the C3X engines give you more play with gearing as RPMs can climb very high (Ferrari, F1, Lamborghini, LFA, GT3 RS, etc.. all short stroke). On the other hand if you can build and swap a J3X engine into an NSX for 5-8k then the loss in power may be worth it? That's up to you and it would be a great options for someone to build a full swap kit. However for that price I would rather open up the C engine and install the bigger pistons and valves and put a DMS manifold on it, with a tune you should be around the 330whp range, maybe more? When I do that I will post it.
PS. the C3X sounds much better than the J3X engines.

Mario92NSX said:

To the OP, first I want to say that I like how you are trying to explore new and cheaper options for the NSX as we all know the C30/C32 engines are not cheap to play around with. That being said I don't have any experience building either a C3X or J3X engine. I do have plans for my C30 which involve larger high comp pistons, re balancing the bottom end and bigger valves. Like some of the previous posts, the C3X engine was built for high RPM and the J3X was built for mid range power usable on the street. The experience I have is from building the F2X and K2X engines and even though they differ from the V6's they have some parts which can help you with your goals. Not many rev the C3X engine very high because of the high cost that something may happen, however the chances are slim. Like most Honda engines they are built to be able to take much more RPM then what the factory redline is. The OEM K20a2 can safely be taken past 9200 RPMs once the single valve springs are changed to dual valve springs, same goes for the F22, I used to take that engine OEM past 9300 RPMs supercharged at 18PSI with a NOVI 1200 blower and I never had issues with it. Both are at least 1000 RPMs beyond the factory redline and both had no issues. The C3X biggest issue is it was design in a time when cars in Japan could not have more than 280HP and therefore Honda made the intake and exhaust very restrictive. Not to mention the low compression of the C3X hurts it for HP as well. if you want to get the most out of a C3X engine you must get bigger pistons with high compression (OEM Titanium Rods are good), a plenum intake manifold or ITB, long tube headers (pride is amazing), a proper flowing exhaust, higher flow oil pump, bigger injectors and tuning. Also remember the C3X engines were hand balanced from factory, which is a big reason they have lasted so long without hiccups for the most part. Because of the High RPM capabilities the C3X engines will always outperform the lower RPM J3X engines not only in power but the C3X engines give you more play with gearing as RPMs can climb very high (Ferrari, F1, Lamborghini, LFA, GT3 RS, etc.. all short stroke). On the other hand if you can build and swap a J3X engine into an NSX for 5-8k then the loss in power may be worth it? That's up to you and it would be a great options for someone to build a full swap kit. However for that price I would rather open up the C engine and install the bigger pistons and valves and put a DMS manifold on it, with a tune you should be around the 330whp range, maybe more? When I do that I will post it.
PS. the C3X sounds much better than the J3X engines.

Click to expand...

Thanks for your input,
Just to put things into prospective, opening up your engine and just swapping pistons and bigger valves will cost anyone at least 10k with ems (ems is 3k alone by the time you add all the sensors and tuning, I know because we installed the aem infinity yesterday) keep in mind internal parts for the nsx are extremely expensive and any shops willing to work on it will charge you exotic car prices. the dynos that exist on here of that approach are around 317whp 225wtq and still only rev to 8300, no one is running 1000rpm over the 7800 oem rpm limit of the NSX. OEM j series is 7200.

the intake manifold restrictions you mention have been discussed here over many years, the realistic attainable gain was discussed on their thread, stock ported intake to an aftermarket intake like the DMS is 1-2% whp being optimistic. most ITB dynos that are posted here are tested without air filters as many people already know, if you put filters on the ITB'S gains become quite a bit less. although there are some dyno sheets showing 310-330 whp with itbs there are also a few itb'd nsx's on this forum that are still under 300whp.

You can modify anything to relative gains but the realistic difference in RPM from j-series to c-series only 500rpm... as an example jeff evans N/A race integra with a j series in it revs to 8000-8500rpm (see pic) and puts down 440whp (on race fuel). http://www.evans-tuning.com/racing/j-series-integra and he likes to comment about how this j engine has NOT required the constant rebuilds that all his k and f and B series required at that level of build.
It has a huge power band and insane TQ that no C series has ever even come close to matching.

A j swap costs 5k-7k including the new engine, minor build, and swap kit. Therefore subtract that you can sell your engine for 5k that's a net cost of 0k-2k and future rebuilds cost almost nothing.
if you blow up a C30 it will cost you 7k-10k to rebuild or 12k-17k to replace&re-modify and at least 1-2 months downtime, a 310whp/260wtq 7500rpm j-series will cost you 2-3k to rebuild or 4-5k to replace and maybe 1-2 weeks downtime since everything is off the shelf.
Ive researched this topic allot. I don't see any dynos of the C30/32 past 8300-8500, there are also J series spinning 8000-8500. Like i said realistically the difference will always be around 500rpm between relatively built engines. and a lightly modded j series can be safely spun very close to the OEM NSX 7800 rpm redline.

One of the main reasons people should really consider this is as well is that c30/32 are becoming harder and harder to find, the nsx may be the most driven limited production car ever made. its aluminum components and build quality will keep allot more on the road than probably any other limited production car ever made.... Engines will become extremely hard to find very soon, especially as more and more people are modifying and blowing up C30/32's.


<a href="http://s172.photobucket.com/user/tiago3/media/jeff%20evans%20integra%20j36%20all%20motor%20440whp%20320wtq%208sec.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i172.photobucket.com/albums/w15/tiago3/jeff%20evans%20integra%20j36%20all%20motor%20440whp%20320wtq%208sec.jpg" border="0" alt=" photo jeff evans integra j36 all motor 440whp 320wtq 8sec.jpg"/></a>

Like I said, I do like your idea, low cost for HP is always a good thing. And to be honest if anything happened to my C30 the J swap would definitely be 1 of my options. The low cost for the C30 would be me doing the work myself and just paying for parts and the balancing of the bottom end. However SOS sells all 6 pistons for about 1k which isn't too unreasonable. see the Kakimoto NSX http://www.speedhunters.com/2014/02/kakimoto-racing-nsx/. But then again I say not many play with high RPM on the NSX because of the high cost "in case" something happens. Usually a SOS or Toda oil pump with fix the oil issue of the higher RPM and as said before, the C30 engine is no where close to its limits with the factory redline (piston speed is at 21 MPS @ 8K RPM). The F22 has a piston speed of 25 MPS @ 8400 RPM and I took it around 9300 RPM with no issues. The C30 has a lot of potential but the major problem is it was only in the NSX which does not make it a budget engine as only 1/20 will mess around with it. It's like the K series vs F series, the F series is a better engine however the K has a lot more units out there and on a lot more models so it makes it more cost effective to research and swap. Please post if you do this build as I would like to see it and the final gains as well.

Mario92NSX said:

Like I said, I do like your idea, low cost for HP is always a good thing. And to be honest if anything happened to my C30 the J swap would definitely be 1 of my options. The low cost for the C30 would be me doing the work myself and just paying for parts and the balancing of the bottom end. However SOS sells all 6 pistons for about 1k which isn't too unreasonable. see the Kakimoto NSX http://www.speedhunters.com/2014/02/kakimoto-racing-nsx/. But then again I say not many play with high RPM on the NSX because of the high cost "in case" something happens. Usually a SOS or Toda oil pump with fix the oil issue of the higher RPM and as said before, the C30 engine is no where close to its limits with the factory redline (piston speed is at 21 MPS @ 8K RPM). The F22 has a piston speed of 25 MPS @ 8400 RPM and I took it around 9300 RPM with no issues. The C30 has a lot of potential but the major problem is it was only in the NSX which does not make it a budget engine as only 1/20 will mess around with it. It's like the K series vs F series, the F series is a better engine however the K has a lot more units out there and on a lot more models so it makes it more cost effective to research and swap. Please post if you do this build as I would like to see it and the final gains as well.

Click to expand...

I have always enjoyed my c30 and the capabilities it has but the N/A cost per HP is nuts. It will be nice to read your build thread as I too am curious to what the outcome will be. even if you DIY there will still be machining and head-work especially if you will be enlarging valves and choosing a local capable shop willing to touch an expensive engine is usually an expensive decision (you will have a $15k engine by the time your done). Cams may be your biggest hurdle and cost ($3k+) as they are supposedly the major under-engineered area of the c3X due to honda's HP agreement and daily drive-ability decisions.... I have hunch that the type R motors had re-ground cams (all NSX cams where the same part numbers, but all nsx engines are hand built so easy to reground cams to make more power and maybe honda wanted to remain under the radar undetectable and without having to re-test the motor for emissions or any other complications that HONDA could avoid from making a little more power. that could have also been another reason the type-r never made it to the US.)

The kakimoto nsx is one of my favorites to watch and it makes 345 hp but that max number is at 6900 rpm (read the specs) which raises allot of questions as to how they have that set up since most c3x make peak at 7400-8000, yet the kakimoto nsx drops power after 6900. Plus the JDM shops don't really clarify Hp and WHP and almost always publish crank hp.

As far as my future build I'm not sure, I'm re-searching J builds, but unless I can get a solid 320whp/280wtq, I may just go twin turbo J or single turbo C since I already have the ems installed now and all the turbo components already in the garage.

The NSXs redline is 8,000 with a hard cut at 8,300IIRC -not 7,800rpm.

I wonder how much it cost to modify that J to spin to 8,000rpm and make ~438whp. Where do you see it. Wing revved to 8,500?

FXMD has taken a built 3.2L to 8,800 in the time attack car, which was pretty conservative.

Subscribed. I haven't dived deep into it yet, but what is the compatibility on the J36 to the NSX transmission (5speed or 6speed)? Also, mounting for engine mounts? The J36 also has only a single manifold on each side for where the headers traditionally would be. This is nice as it makes custom header/manifold options a bit easier and saves some additional weight. What about engine management? Have you considered if there are available tuners by your area that can tune it once it's installed?

stuntman said:

The NSXs redline is 8,000 with a hard cut at 8,300IIRC -not 7,800rpm.

I wonder how much it cost to modify that J to spin to 8,000rpm and make ~438whp. Where do you see it. Wing revved to 8,500?

FXMD has taken a built 3.2L to 8,800 in the time attack car, which was pretty conservative.

Click to expand...

Billy you can check and search any oem dyno sheets show the factory ecu cut's fuel off at 7800rpm unless it chipped.
there's at least 10 dynos just on the first page here on a thread you started that cut off at 7800, which is the same my car does on my tests.
http://www.nsxprime.com/forum/showthread.php/109312-NSX-Dyno-Library-Registry

some chips increase the rpm to 8300.
As you know the rpm tach is always off, its shows it cutting off higher than actuality.

the details and costs of the builds is what i have been searching, I'm getting numbers/claims between 5-10k for builds that claim 325-350whp / 275-300ish wtq,
The 438whp is Jeff Evans shopcar drag race engine, don't know how much he has in there. if i was to make wild guess 20-30k build, but i must be clear i am not in way claiming that engine could last in a road racing / street drivable nsx, but he does claim the 8000 RPM limit is not an issue on the J.
I only referenced his build as an example that anything can be done, and the J engine is capable of extreme power.
The only conclusion that I can come to, is that for similar overall power goals, the J may cost 1/2 of the C to achieve the the same power results.
That's just the build out itself not including that the base price of a C is 5k and a J is 1k making the j much more replaceable.

On another note been talking to cody, who is starting to spec J twin turbo builds, at CONSERVATIVELY 450wph / 400wtq using OEM J series bottom ends and minor head work to raise the rpm limit installed including the j engine and swap fully turn key for around the same price as just a LF600 turbo turnkey (but with J twin turbo you still get to sell the OEM C engine to recuperate 30% of the cost and if you blow it up it'll cost you 2-3k to replace). There's allot of interest out there. Its hard to deny the J's capabilities and relative low cost to play around with.

- - - Updated - - -

aznbo187 said:

Subscribed. I haven't dived deep into it yet, but what is the compatibility on the J36 to the NSX transmission (5speed or 6speed)? Also, mounting for engine mounts? The J36 also has only a single manifold on each side for where the headers traditionally would be. This is nice as it makes custom header/manifold options a bit easier and saves some additional weight. What about engine management? Have you considered if there are available tuners by your area that can tune it once it's installed?

Click to expand...

There are two build threads currently on prime that were recently completed and and a swap kit was just developed and started selling a few months ago
just off top of my head:
The transmission bolts up perfectly and there is small adapter that is part of the swap kit.
Most of the engine mounts line up perfectly only 2 I think have brackets, and few other adapters ect.

http://www.nsxprime.com/forum/showthread.php/189108-J-Swap-Motor-Mount-Adapter-Kit
http://www.nsxprime.com/forum/showthread.php/168431-My-J-swapped-NSX-sorry-for-the-wait-love-or-hate
http://www.nsxprime.com/forum/showthread.php/176807-The-quot-J-quot-Swap


Here the copy paste from the swap kit details......
.....................................

J-Swap Motor Mounts

This is the basic motor mount adapter kit that will allow you to bolt a Honda/Acura J-series motor into the NSX chassis. No modifications are made to the NSX and you re-use all of the original NSX motor mounts.

What’s included in the kit:

1. Front motor mount adapter
2. Right motor mount adapter
3. Axle half-shaft adapter
4. Pilot bushing
5. Throttle bracket adapter
6. Heat Pipe Cap
7. Transmission bolt

Pros:
Completely reversible
Plentiful supply of inexpensive engines
Smoother running 60 degree V-6
More room for turbos
Lighter Weight
Same exhaust note
Torque
No fear of breaking your expensive C-motor


Cons:
May lose Traction Control functionality
Most J-Series only have VTEC on the intake cam
Lower redline on the stock J-series.

$1,275 includes PP fees and shipping in USA.