Real Fire Suppression Recommendations?

After all of my modifications to this "street" vehicle, I am concerned with fire suppression. It's not strictly a "track-only" application so I didn't put this in the track forum.

I have a fixed-value policy through Grundy, but I would still hate to see this thing go up in flames with all of the work I've put into it. Obviously, it would be nice to have some protection for the occupants too if this occurred.

I have a large lithium battery up front, custom Teflon/Kevlar braided fuel lines, and custom 12AN oil filter/cooler lines for my dry sump. The oil lines especially are thermally shielded from the turbos and exhaust, but still present a danger. I've put in a lot of thought on properly routing and accommodating the fuel and oil lines, but stuff still happens. Even for those with OEM stuff, the fuel injector O-rings get old, your fuel lines are aging, and so on. Our cars have been pretty reliable as far as engine fires, but quite a few exotics have not been as lucky.

What I'm looking at is a 3-4 zone manually-activated (push or pull with some safety pin feature?) suppression system for the front compartment, cabin, and engine/under-trunk areas.

I'm not interested in Halon-based stuff. How about the Halon replacements though (FE-36, Novec 1230, etc)?

The SPA aqueous film forming foam sounds like the way to go (FIA approved, standard on GT# Cup cars, not terribly expensive, etc), but does anyone have experience with this? If I went this route I would probably skip the cabin and just put nozzles under the front hood and in the engine compartment.

Thanks in advance.

Dave

Uhhhhh.... I feel like a tard reading this... Because I have more questions than answers but at least wanted to subscribe.

Can you tell me why not Halon and how you have a dry sump? Is there a thread some place? That's really cool.

I'm just carrying a Halon extinguisher but it's most likely not enough. It's "multi-zone" controlled by the arm of yours truly only lol

production of Halon ceased on January 1, 1994, under the Clean Air Act

10 year old halon can be ineffective,
they're considered hazardous 'ozone depleting' agents
effects to your health are
Throat, eye, and nasal irritation, lightheadedness headache, voice change, cough, and a fast heartbeat
possible cardiac and central nervous system effects.
But… its still the best for putting out fire nothing compares

Funny timing for this topic as I've been just discussing mounting options with 1K2GO. I have small bottle of H3R Halotron 1. Which seems like decent option: http://www.h3rcleanagents.com/support_faq_2.htm but I'm curious to see what you end up getting for full fire suppress system.

TURBO2GO said:

Uhhhhh.... I feel like a tard reading this... Because I have more questions than answers but at least wanted to subscribe.

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I'm trying to learn too. I probably should have thought about this last winter when the car was sitting for six months. Oh well.

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TURBO2GO said:

Can you tell me why not Halon and how you have a dry sump? Is there a thread some place? That's really cool.

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Halon works well for closed environments. There are two problems that I see for cars though:
1) It may not be very effective if you activated it while the car was in motion (i.e. it sprays out as mostly liquid but flashes to vapor instantly and may be dispersed before it extinguishes the source). Especially for an engine bay or open cabin.
2) It won't prevent re-ignition.

As far as a build thread, I have a DIY engine rebuild thread on here. BATMANs stole the show and by the time I got into the good stuff, I was the only one posting. So, I gave up trying to document it. Yeah, it's pretty cool. I have the flattest torque curve of any FI'd NSX that is almost identical to the factory curve... It's just shifted up another 200 ft-lbs to the wheels. Ensuring sufficient oil film thickness at my custom rod bearings for all the stress at low RPMs meant a variable displacement oil pump... then dry sump, and complete custom 12AN lines with Canton filtration, Mocal oil t-stat, dual oil-air coolers with fans, etc. Otherwise a dry sump is kind of a waste if you can't use it to lower your cars CG IMO. Also, they require maintenance for a vehicle used frequently (belt, etc). It's one of those things that sounds cool but also brings a lot of headaches with it. For a quality pump you don't have to worry about failing is also $$.

The problem I have with the 12AN fittings is the slight weeping at the tapered seal. After a few hours of use I might get a drip, but I hate that. These are quality Ano-Tuff fittings (about $50+ each), so I tried some SECO aluminum crush washers to eliminate the weeping. I just don't have a good handle on how tight to get these huge 12AN fittings. 4AN (brakes) and my 6AN (fuel) lines have no problems. Only this big 12AN stuff....

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solidol said:

Funny timing for this topic as I've been just discussing mounting options with 1K2GO. I have small bottle of H3R Halotron 1. Which seems like decent option: http://www.h3rcleanagents.com/support_faq_2.htm but I'm curious to see what you end up getting for full fire suppress system.

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Does 1K2GO have the same setup? I'm curious what he uses (and also the car Shad built for Kip). Problems with the aqueous foam that I see are:
1) Needs to be serviced every two years so the solution doesn't solidify.
2) Can freeze (I don't know what the temperature is though, but a concern since I live in cold PA. I'll have to find out for sure).
3) It's obviously slippery stuff and can block vision. This is a concern if you activate it while on the track or road of course before stopping. You don't want any cabin nozzles pointed at you or the windows since it can block vision. I also don't know how I'd feel about it soaking my interior since the next point is:
4) Has some cleanup to it as opposed to halon.

Thanks,

Dave

Rob [MENTION=26776]1K2GO[/MENTION] has single bottle near passenger seat.

solidol said:

Rob [MENTION=26776]1K2GO[/MENTION] has single bottle near passenger seat.

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A handheld one? I personally believe these handhelds are mostly useless. The most likely scenario for a fire is originating in the engine compartment on the top of the engine (injectors and fuel lines). Is a handheld dry chemical fire extinguisher going to help in that scenario? Not likely. If there is an underhatch fire then there is very little probability I am going to try and lift the rear hatch to extinguish it (unless it is a really small fire). You take a chance getting severe burns that way, and getting to the top of the engine from underneath the car with a handheld extinguisher is not going to happen effectively either.

Either a halon-replacement or AFFF suppression system with two nozzles aiming at the top of the engine (fuel stuff), and two under the trunk (my oil stuff) will probably suffice for me.

And where do you plan on keeping the tank? I have to find your FI thread and read it. Is it in the builds section ? Thanks for the info.

Mac Attack said:

A handheld one? I personally believe these handhelds are mostly useless. The most likely scenario for a fire is originating in the engine compartment on the top of the engine (injectors and fuel lines). Is a handheld dry chemical fire extinguisher going to help in that scenario? Not likely. If there is an underhatch fire then there is very little probability I am going to try and lift the rear hatch to extinguish it (unless it is a really small fire). You take a chance getting severe burns that way, and getting to the top of the engine from underneath the car with a handheld extinguisher is not going to happen effectively either.

Either a halon-replacement or AFFF suppression system with two nozzles aiming at the top of the engine (fuel stuff), and two under the trunk (my oil stuff) will probably suffice for me.

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Yeah, handheld one. And I agree with you on most points. The thing is if you have fire originated under the hatch (most likely) when you open the cover you'll drive much more air in there effectively making it even worse.
The thing is I'm NA with very low risk of fire. And it's mostly so I don't watch my car burn to the ground in the middle of nowhere in the canyons. Or even on the side of the busy highway with FD response time measured in minutes. Car burns down quick.
So there is that. Sure much less effective but at least you can try to do something. There is also training that's really important if not the most after having a bottle in your hands.

All this becomes much more important when you are turbocharged with questionable plumbing and heat waves etc.

How sensitive AFFF is to ambient temperature? My h3r was getting close to red zone when left in the trunk for few hours.

Danger zone

This seems like it maybe good option for you. Use bottle just for storage and route hose to the engine bay with few splitters maybe. Drill few holes in the release handle and route cables inside the cabin for quick pull activation.

Idk k did a fair amount of questioning and research and was told to get Halon for automotive use and that's what I got. These are widely used trackside, I'm not sure there's very many better alternatives that don't cause permanent damage to the car.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=DjFZcvEo-LQ

Small fire extinguishers are nice and all but they are a gimmick for automotive world. For real world saving of the car a large extinguisher is a minimum and even that may not solve the problem. It took 2 large extinguishers to put out a fire on our vehicle in Japan and 2 did not solve the issue in Djibouti.

I've seen a car saved with a small extinguisher when I was a kid. I mean it was a piece of junk and not worth fixing afterward, but my old man was on it so fast I'll never forget it. In my British cars I carry two handhelds; one in the passenger compartment and one in the trunk. I figure at least it gives me an option other than sitting there roasting marshmallows letting the car burn to the ground. Also, on the old British cars it's absolutely crucial to turn the key off so the electric fuel pumps don't continue pumping. I've made a mental note of this for any car I'm in if they ever catch fire.

If I were to have an engine fire on an nsx I would think spraying through the rwg would be how I would start to proceed, as it would at least mitigate the amount of oxygen you'd be adding for the fire when popping the hatch. Anyhow, handhelds may not be a sufficient solution for the track, but most certainly better than nothing.

My 2 cents

Also on a related note I saw an article the other week where a guy was working on an Alfa and it backfired through the intake and burnt down his garage.
http://oppositelock.jalopnik.com/my-alfa-is-gone-1700196295

There is a fire truck at every track. Ready. As there is an ambulance. The extinguisher is only there to buy you a minute until the fire truck gets there. I think some of you guys might be trying to act like the fire truck. If this is for street use, you can be quick and if you have something it's better to try to save your car than to twiddle your thumbs and pray. If not, I am not sure having an extra 3 gallons is that helpful. I mean you have to be reasonable. This might be a bigger issue on the Nurburgring or Pike's Peak than your local track doing a DE or around the neighborhood. When I am diving around town I am in an OEM Genesis sedan anyway... not in a modified NSX with aftermarket fuel lines.

When I'm out in the canyons I'm on my own. And if anything small happens I don't want to just stand by and watch it burn. You know what I mean. For track I agree especially given harness and hans etc try measuring how much time it takes for you to get out. Plus most likely it won't be safe to exit the vehicle parked on the hot track. So pull activated system is the way to go. Handheld is more useful on the street/canyons than on the track in my opinion.

solidol said:

This seems like it maybe good option for you. Use bottle just for storage and route hose to the engine bay with few splitters maybe. Drill few holes in the release handle and route cables inside the cabin for quick pull activation.

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That's similar to what I'd like to do. Is that a dry chemical extinguisher? I can't tell from the labels. The problem is that the dry chemical is a pain to clean up after. That's the good thing about the AFFF (with AFFF problems being maintenance and potential freezing). It's not like I regularly expect engine fires from my fuel or oil lines. Maybe I should just rig up a dry chemical setup like that. Thanks.

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Rope said:

Small fire extinguishers are nice and all but they are a gimmick for automotive world. For real world saving of the car a large extinguisher is a minimum and even that may not solve the problem. It took 2 large extinguishers to put out a fire on our vehicle in Japan and 2 did not solve the issue in Djibouti.

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Good lord man. How many vehicle fires have you personally seen? What do you do for your vehicles now?

Dry chemical sucks for obvious reasons. But why not use h3r halgard instead?

cmc140 said:

I've seen a car saved with a small extinguisher when I was a kid. I mean it was a piece of junk and not worth fixing afterward, but my old man was on it so fast I'll never forget it. In my British cars I carry two handhelds; one in the passenger compartment and one in the trunk. I figure at least it gives me an option other than sitting there roasting marshmallows letting the car burn to the ground. Also, on the old British cars it's absolutely crucial to turn the key off so the electric fuel pumps don't continue pumping. I've made a mental note of this for any car I'm in if they ever catch fire.

If I were to have an engine fire on an nsx I would think spraying through the rwg would be how I would start to proceed, as it would at least mitigate the amount of oxygen you'd be adding for the fire when popping the hatch. Anyhow, handhelds may not be a sufficient solution for the track, but most certainly better than nothing.

My 2 cents

Also on a related note I saw an article the other week where a guy was working on an Alfa and it backfired through the intake and burnt down his garage.
http://oppositelock.jalopnik.com/my-alfa-is-gone-1700196295

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That Alfa owner was hilarious. Poor guy.

As far as your experience, every fire and circumstance is different. If I'm going to do a real fire suppression system, I want to do it complete and thorough.

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solidol said:

Dry chemical sucks for obvious reasons. But why not use h3r halgard instead?

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Because it will not prevent re-ignition, and it may also not extinguish a fire in an engine compartment due to its openness and air refresh rate if you are moving. It's great for cockpits and closed areas, but not so much for open engine compartments and so on. That's why AFFF is the most popular right now.

Mac Attack said:

That Alfa owner was hilarious. Poor guy.

As far as your experience, every fire and circumstance is different. If I'm going to do a real fire suppression system, I want to do it complete and thorough.

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Because it will not prevent re-ignition, and it may also not extinguish a fire in an engine compartment due to its openness and air refresh rate if you are moving. It's great for cockpits and closed areas, but not so much for open engine compartments and so on. That's why AFFF is the most popular right now.

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Yeah burnt Alfa really upset me more than it should have. Have he had fire extinguisher in his old shed it could have been easily prevented.

How expensive is AFFF? If you go with it or chemical make sure to post your setup.

TURBO2GO said:

There is a fire truck at every track. Ready. As there is an ambulance. The extinguisher is only there to buy you a minute until the fire truck gets there. I think some of you guys might be trying to act like the fire truck. If this is for street use, you can be quick and if you have something it's better to try to save your car than to twiddle your thumbs and pray. If not, I am not sure having an extra 3 gallons is that helpful. I mean you have to be reasonable. This might be a bigger issue on the Nurburgring or Pike's Peak than your local track doing a DE or around the neighborhood. When I am diving around town I am in an OEM Genesis sedan anyway... not in a modified NSX with aftermarket fuel lines.

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Everyone is entitled to their own opinion and I'm not trying to convince anyone else that they need one. Most serious tracked vehicles have them. Porsche GT3's (which I am interested in buying one for a track vehicle) come from the factory with AFFF systems. I am looking at turning my 625HP NSX into my non-Winter DD. As such, I will loose my Grundy policy and would therefore like as much help mitigating a potential fire as possible.

I'm looking for folks with personal experience on the AFFF or halon-replacement systems.

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solidol said:

Yeah burnt Alfa really upset me more than it should have. Have he had fire extinguisher in his old shed it could have been easily prevented.

How expensive is AFFF? If you go with it or chemical make sure to post your setup.

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My first start on the rebuilt NSX engine I had a few people monitoring for fuel leaks, oil leaks, and other vitals. There were a few fire extinguishers in hand just in case! Keep in mind that this is after I pressure-tested each of my homemade Teflon-lined, Kevlar-braided fuel lines to 200 psi (my air compressor limit) with a Schrader valve and test fittings under water. Some may think it's overboard and anal, but that's how it is done professionally.

It never hurts to be prepared. It's not like it's a huge investment either - a nominal $400 plus installation and then maintenance fees (if going AFFF).

I am not saying a fire extingiusher system like you want is bad, i just dont see the point of the small ones that people buy and put in their car. I think if most people used one they would realize that if the fire was bigger than a small waste bascket fire at your office desk that the fire would continue. The fire in japan was from an oil line leaking on a manifold. The one in djibouti was from us cutting a bus open with a torch. The fire spreads so fast in a vehicle, kinda of amazing really.

Rope said:

I am not saying a fire extingiusher system like you want is bad, i just dont see the point of the small ones that people buy and put in their car. I think if most people used one they would realize that if the fire was bigger than a small waste bascket fire at your office desk that the fire would continue. The fire in japan was from an oil line leaking on a manifold. The one in djibouti was from us cutting a bus open with a torch. The fire spreads so fast in a vehicle, kinda of amazing really.

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I completely agree with you. See my post #7 . *Some* people may have gotten lucky with a small handheld, but they are truly the minority if your vehicle ever does catch on fire.

Dave

We'll post what you finally decide on here. I don't even know where you'd store a big tank.