Opinions on HKS F-Con VPro vs. AEM EMS Series 2

RYU

RYU

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Can anyone shed some light on the pros/cons for these two? Asides from needing access to HKS proprietary software and having to be HKS certified how do the hardware and features compare?

Here's a good thread explaning the pros/cons of the VPro but hoping to get some feedback on the Vpro vs. EMS S2.
http://www.nsxprime.com/forum/showthread.php?t=121227
 
RYU said:
Can anyone shed some light on the pros/cons for these two? Asides from needing access to HKS proprietary software and having to be HKS certified how do the hardware and features compare?

Regan,
FastraxTurbo aka Jon Koruyama is the guru on this and he was the head of HKS R&D as you might know. He came to your Haga-baga window-fix party.
FXMD uses him exclusively to tune their car to set record lap time.
If I was running a standalone ECU, I would pay him to tune my ride.

You should PM him.(he is not on Prime often but will answer your Qs)
Click to expand...
 
liftnot said:
RYU said:
Can anyone shed some light on the pros/cons for these two? Asides from needing access to HKS proprietary software and having to be HKS certified how do the hardware and features compare?

Regan,
FastraxTurbo aka Jon Koruyama is the guru on this and he was the head of HKS R&D as you might know. He came to your Haga-baga window-fix party.
FXMD uses him exclusively to tune their car to set record lap time.
If I was running a standalone ECU, I would pay him to tune my ride.

You should PM him.(he is not on Prime often but will answer your Qs)
Click to expand...
Thanks Tim. He's actually the reason why i'm posting this to begin with :wink:. We're lucky to have him in Socal. I know a lot of serious cars run the VPro so i'm in the process of weighing options.

Hope to hear from some folks on here. Unfortunately, the VPro isn't as pervasive in the industry as the AEM. I believe SOS stopped carrying them as well. The CAMP hookup would be nice to have though.
Click to expand...
 
HKS F-Con Pro needs lots of special wiring and devices. If done by Pro
works like dream on 90-05 cars.
Installion is like piggy pack but it has 100% control on fuel and ingnition.
<TABLE dir=ltr border=0 cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=2 width=537><TBODY><TR><TD height=16 vAlign=top width="25%" colSpan=2>HKS F-CON Pro 3.3 Ecu 32 bit



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</TD></TR><TR><TD height=16 vAlign=top width="25%" colSpan=2>Special loom



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</TD></TR><TR><TD height=16 vAlign=top width="50%" colSpan=4>AMW conversion loom+power suply harnes



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</TD></TR><TR><TD height=16 vAlign=top width="63%" colSpan=5>AMW Air temp sensor +wiring kit



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</TD></TR><TR><TD height=16 vAlign=top width="38%" colSpan=3>Wires,realys conectors ext



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</TD></TR><TR><TD height=16 vAlign=top width="50%" colSpan=4>AMW Special V-Tech, EGR controller box



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</TD></TR><TR><TD height=16 vAlign=top width="50%" colSpan=4>AMW/HKS calibrations , over 50 hours development



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</TD></TR><TR><TD height=16 vAlign=top width="38%" colSpan=3>Tech Edge Lambda controller for HKS Closed loop



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</TD></TR><TR><TD height=16 vAlign=top width="13%">HKS KIT 3700e (no export out of EU)



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Fastrax is the man! Thats my boy he is the only guy I would go to if you are considering the V-PRO.

Enuff said.
 
Operator said:
Installion is like piggy pack but it has 100% control on fuel and ingnition.
Click to expand...

How is this possible? :confused: does this mean the car can pass smog if done through OBDII port?
 
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HKS closed US operations last year. There are no official Pro dealers in the USA to service the VPro. All Pro dealers were required to return the Pro tuning module (us included) when HKS shut up shop. There are some tuners who have managed to snag the tuning module through various sources - but the number of tuners out there are far and few between and if that tuner ever closes up shop you're stuck - the VPro is locked, and you as a consumer will be screwed.

We had experience with only three HKS VPros, and I can say we are no means experts. We were able to successfully tune them after some frustration. There is little to no documentation and our saving grace was Jon at HKS when he was employed by HKS USA.

The ease of use of the AEMTuner software, the plug-and play nature of the Series 2 EMS we offer (it even fastens to the Honda ECU mounting location!), USB connectivity, the cost, and much better national and even worldwide support FAR weighs to the favor of the Series 2 EMS. Frankly, I cannot think of one advantage to the VPro has in my experience compared to the AEM.

For more information on the Series 2 EMS including photos and feature set, you can find it on our website under the "engine tuning" product category.

regards,
-- Chris
 
As Chris has stated and a person I respect...HKS is no longer supported in North America; a down side. *However, the Fcon is nothing short of amazing. It is a true set and forget stand alone .It starts in all conditions with one crank and frankly is as stable as the original EMS. I have owned my car for 18 years, and and since my engine build in Phoenix and tune here in Toronto,I can not tell the difference between this unit and the factory EMS.

The ultimately Fcon tuning guru is Ben Phillips out of New Mexico .There is no one better when it come to this unit. I have searched far and wide. He has been setting up professional road race teams with it in 5 countries since the original systems came out and is well know and highly respected by the Supra boys.*

I am somewhat old school. I believe once the car is set up, you should not need to be concerned...just drive...period!
 
RYU said:
Chris can you speak to the instability/inconsistency of the AEM? Have these issues been addressed with the EMS S2? I believe this was a common complaint by tuners and why something like a Motec or VPro was chosen.
Click to expand...

I am not Chris and would not want to speak for him but, in my experience the series 2 was a big step forward in sensor stability for AEM, that was the major downfall of the older series 1 units. Not sure when it was fixed completely, could have even been fixed in the newer redesigned small chassis series 1 v.2. I have not used one of those personally but have seen the series 2 in action and it is much much better than the older series 1 boxes. The series 2 comes with a different software package for tuning and with most software roll outs there were some issues there, but I think they have been addressed by AEM for the most part.

I have seen a lot of the preliminary data about the AEM Infinity-10 and as far as stand-a-lone ECU's go it looks like it will be a huge leap forward again. If you are in a possition to wait a little longer I would give it some consideration, if you can not wait the Series 2 would be a very good choice for a 91-94 NSX.

Even if HKS still had support for their products in the US why would you want to rewire the car or change factory sensors in order to use their engine management when you have perfectly good OEM quality sensors and wiring in place now. Adding sensors to increase data collection is one thing, but changing crank sensors or cam sensors, map sensors and other factory sensors makes little since. This is the same for MoTec, I have personlly seen some very bad butcher jobs on factory wiring to get these systems installed and running. I can not think of to many advantages to be gained by this process and a whole bunch of downsides. There is nothing wrong with either HKS or MoTec products, for me it is about application and implementation.

The biggest issue with AEM is their desire to have an open product. Anyone with a laptop and access to AEM's forum can download some software and make changes to an AEM ECU. That was a plus for me as I new I would be the one to learn the product at my own pace and would take the time to learn the ins and outs of tuning programmable EFI. I consider myself blessed to have been trained by Devin with AEM, but even after three days with his help and guidence my head was spinning. It took a long time for me to get a handle on the cause and effect for each control option in the software and I still learn new stuff all the time. For the consumer that does not want to learn the process or invest the time needed they are left to trust an installer/tuner with little to no control on qualifications to use this product.

For the NSX the AEM ECU is a proven product in the right hands. In the wrong hands it is also been proven to be very effective at following the commands of a bad tune/tuner to perfection and causing catastophic failures.

A simple formula for calculating the cost of a good tune after a bad one:
Junk in = (Junk out + boom)*$$,$$$

Unfortunatly this can be said for just about any part OEM of aftermarket, as I have seen a $25.00 hose fitting be the cause of the demise of a $18,000 built motor.

Dave
 
Dave,

Super valuable information as always. I was not aware a sensor overhaul was required for the VPro/Motec. Thank you.

In your personal opinion how long until the EMS I-10 gets sorted for the NSX? Logic tells me that as the older the 91-94 OBD1 gets, the lack of support for newer EMSs such as the I-10 there will be. I'm wondering if the S2 will be as good as it gets for us.
 
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Dave...I don't disagree with you, and in particular your last 3 paragraphs.

As for my fcon setup, all oem sensors and wiring have remained unaltered, save and except the map sensor.

Jim
 
DDozier said:
I am not Chris and would not want to speak for him but, in my experience the series 2 was a big step forward in sensor stability for AEM, that was the major downfall of the older series 1 units. Not sure when it was fixed completely, could have even been fixed in the newer redesigned small chassis series 1 v.2. I have not used one of those personally but have seen the series 2 in action and it is much much better than the older series 1 boxes. The series 2 comes with a different software package for tuning and with most software roll outs there were some issues there, but I think they have been addressed by AEM for the most part.

I have seen a lot of the preliminary data about the AEM Infinity-10 and as far as stand-a-lone ECU's go it looks like it will be a huge leap forward again. If you are in a possition to wait a little longer I would give it some consideration, if you can not wait the Series 2 would be a very good choice for a 91-94 NSX.

Even if HKS still had support for their products in the US why would you want to rewire the car or change factory sensors in order to use their engine management when you have perfectly good OEM quality sensors and wiring in place now. Adding sensors to increase data collection is one thing, but changing crank sensors or cam sensors, map sensors and other factory sensors makes little since. This is the same for MoTec, I have personlly seen some very bad butcher jobs on factory wiring to get these systems installed and running. I can not think of to many advantages to be gained by this process and a whole bunch of downsides. There is nothing wrong with either HKS or MoTec products, for me it is about application and implementation.

No... you dont know nothing about HKS. It uses OEM sensors 100%
No rewiring or cutting oem harnes. Ecu harnes adaptor like aem series II.
Forget HKS ! "You" not have any support for it.

Case: You have 98 FBW car and AEM series II ecu . How you keep your oem ecu free of errors ? This is real problem.
Click to expand...
 
This tread is truly subjective and debatable. Had I known that the fcon was no longer supported in North America, I clearly would have opted for the aem unit, which I did in fact have and changed. It is what it is!

As stated, the fcon is a set and forget unit. I am not a tuner, nor do I pretend to have the knowledge. I have driven the car for 18 years; have tracked the car for the first ten years and can say without exception the fcon is akin to the Honda EMS...SOL now, perhaps in terms of support, but this unit will likely last as long, perhaps longer than any quality unit.

Features and benefits...will start in any conditions. You do not have to wait for the fuel pump...just starts on the first crank. More importantly, warm starts after you shut down and restart the car....a minor issue...can be dialed out. Next .. auto tuning ....wow! The more you drive, the more the unit learns and smooths out the transition points...it does in fact work.

Stability- at 32 bits this unit is fast but it is as good as the sum of the components.*We changed the aem wide band to the fcon a/f unit. Why...it allow us to speed up the fcon to react to its full potential. The ultimate verification is how the car handles...akin to OEM .

Trim maps...I have 2-one for low octane and one for 94 octane.....simply a flip of a button on the Camp 2.

I am not naive...I have owned many a car but I will say without exception, the fcon unit is first class ...no regrets....I hope...LOL
 
Wow some very defensive HKS people, including one who seems to contradict himself in this very thread. Both EMS's will get the job done. I would choose a qualified tuner you feel comfortable with first and work with them to find out what EMS would be best for you. HKS will be very tough to find support in the US. Not many tuners will be able to tune the car.
 
RYU said:
liftnot said:
Thanks Tim. He's actually the reason why i'm posting this to begin with :wink:. We're lucky to have him in Socal. I know a lot of serious cars run the VPro so i'm in the process of weighing options.

Hope to hear from some folks on here. Unfortunately, the VPro isn't as pervasive in the industry as the AEM. I believe SOS stopped carrying them as well. The CAMP hookup would be nice to have though.
Click to expand...

Ryu - your in good hands... hell... lock the thread and "LISTEN TO YOUR TUNER _ YOU WONT FIND A BETTER ONE"

This debate is about who is tuning the car.. not the hardware and software.

If Mr fasttrax answers your pm's or even lets you call him... it means you havent said anything so stupid on prime that he rspects you... so realize who he is... and utilize the fact that you are close to him and he is willing to even communicate with you is something some people cant buy.

Fasttrax doesnt do it for the money... if he is willing.. you should be willing.

I understand the HKS unit has a very small amount of tuners bla bla bla...

How many tuners in North Carolina, boston, guam and puertorico does it take to tune your car in So Cal?

The best of the best lives where you live... that matters


This thread title should say "I have the honor of being able to install an F-Con pro - why would an AEM makes sense?

Hybrid - Socal is the only place an HKS makes sense... unless another HKS guru exsists... you know this but to say it publicaly - your tuner matters... not the hardware they use... use what your tuner prefers... but pick your tuner wisely

When you bought your car.. your tuner was Honda.. dont go backwards
Click to expand...
 
StmpoRaceProducts wrote :This debate is about who is tuning the car.. not the hardware and software.

I don't agree if you choose HKS f-con pro 3.3. RYU has 91 car ? too easy ..Case 96-FBW OBD II car : first you must know how honda
oem engine ECU and TCS works. This is key point... nothing to do with
how good "tuner" you are. Base HKS tuner needs to know litle bit more than average plug and play tuner so that helps !
Note stock OEM ecu must not see ANY faults or missing inputs or outputs!
Can you do it ..yes you can with HKS or AEM series II if you know what
you are doing. It will pass OBD II test too!

HKS F-con is very good ecu ..very stable inputs, 1024 map points Fuel/Ing. 4 output maps for OEM sensors. Wide band lambda closed loop control + automatic fuel mapping on all the time. Never seen broken one ! very reliable ! Very good on dyno ..map trace. Is it as good as motec? ..yes base stuf is but motec is for racers or skilled tuners. Better than AEM series 2? 3-2 to HKS ..so close.

There is no HKS harneses for any NSX. HKS pro tuner could get wiring map from HKS
but still you need to make your own extra hardware for V-tec,EGR and many another outputs to keep OEM ECu happy.Stock Air temp sensor is too slow. Get open element tip sensor.

There is only one problem. HKS F-con pro is too good for OEM lambda
sensors.OEM ecu like too see on/off closed loop readings. HKS wide band
readings only wary between 14,5-14,9 when closed loop ..oops it must be broken;) . This is only broblem ..but sometimes it will take 50-100miles
when MIL comes active.Take a fuse off before smog test ..works here.
But i am working on it

Sorry about my english
 
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Maybe this should be in a new thread, but.......

What info has been released lately regarding the AEM Infinity-10. It seems like it has been over a year now with little to no new information regarding this next gen unit.

Also, I am going to disagree with Chris. There is certainly a huge advantage of the VCON PRO over ANY AEM unit: AEM requires you (for all intents and purposes) to have Windows running in order to interpret the data. That, or many multiple analog gauges cluttering up you interior. HKS gave us CAMP, and while it seems ancient by today's standards, it is still better than anything that AEM has brought to market. I even asked Chris when AEM was going to release an adaptable video interface and he admitted it is one of the things the the end consumer has been asking for for years now.
 
I have hope that Devin will chime in here, but the major anouncement for Infinity-10 was at SEMA in Oct 2011 then again at PRI in Nov 2011 with a working unit in a Supra outside the show. While release dates were estimated at first quarter 2012 and we are well past that almost all of the other product releases for the SEMA and PRI shows appear to be shipping now, but the new ECU is a big product to develope and release. I do want it now but want it to work, so no release untill it is sorted please.

I can not really get anyone to confirm or deny but I think the Mopar ECU that will be shipped with the Hemi crate motors for their street rod series is the Infinity-10. If this is the case a project like that could delay the release of the ECU as resorces get reallocated to keep a major vendor happy. This is all speculation.

There is a very good thread running over at Honda-Tech if you want to follow it:
http://honda-tech.com/showthread.php?t=2995120

There are 3rd party vendors that can read, log and display the sensor streams from the AEM ECU. While AEM does not have there own as of yet they are out there. Here are two.

http://www.drewtech.com/enthusiast/introduction/addons/aem.html
http://honda-tech.com/showthread.php?t=2995120

Dave

Juice said:
Maybe this should be in a new thread, but.......

What info has been released lately regarding the AEM Infinity-10. It seems like it has been over a year now with little to no new information regarding this next gen unit.

Also, I am going to disagree with Chris. There is certainly a huge advantage of the VCON PRO over ANY AEM unit: AEM requires you (for all intents and purposes) to have Windows running in order to interpret the data. That, or many multiple analog gauges cluttering up you interior. HKS gave us CAMP, and while it seems ancient by today's standards, it is still better than anything that AEM has brought to market. I even asked Chris when AEM was going to release an adaptable video interface and he admitted it is one of the things the the end consumer has been asking for for years now.
Click to expand...
 
DDozier said:
I am not Chris and would not want to speak for him but, in my experience the series 2 was a big step forward in sensor stability for AEM, that was the major downfall of the older series 1 units. Not sure when it was fixed completely, could have even been fixed in the newer redesigned small chassis series 1 v.2. I have not used one of those personally but have seen the series 2 in action and it is much much better than the older series 1 boxes. The series 2 comes with a different software package for tuning and with most software roll outs there were some issues there, but I think they have been addressed by AEM for the most part.
Click to expand...

My 3.5L TT motor was built by SoS using a Series 1 v.2 and in my 2 years and 25K miles of use it's given me no issues.
 
Juice said:
Also, I am going to disagree with Chris. There is certainly a huge advantage of the VCON PRO over ANY AEM unit: AEM requires you (for all intents and purposes) to have Windows running in order to interpret the data. That, or many multiple analog gauges cluttering up you interior. HKS gave us CAMP, and while it seems ancient by today's standards, it is still better than anything that AEM has brought to market. I even asked Chris when AEM was going to release an adaptable video interface and he admitted it is one of the things the the end consumer has been asking for for years now.
Click to expand...

There are displays available that will display the serial datastream from the AEM EMS now, so I don't see this as an advantage for the FCON.

-- Chris
 
The Dashdaq is damn close to what I have been looking for, but wish they offered the ability to chose your own tactile screen.

Every time I see the options available with the new AEM I can't help but imagine some of the new ways we will be able to control tune. The system looks like the ultimate layer cake.

As for the VCON PRO, I just can't see using a system that has such poor support here in the states. Other than the video interface option, AEM offers a much more user friendly option for your money. But I can't deny the success FactorX has had with their HKS.
 
How many FBW+OBD II cars prime members have who has AEM or HKS ecu ?
Who was a KIT supplier ?
Do you have problems with TCS or FBW ?
 

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Juice said:
The Dashdaq is damn close to what I have been looking for, but wish they offered the ability to chose your own tactile screen
Click to expand...

It is just a VGA touch screen being drivin by a Linux OS and other basic hardware, if you wanted to modify the unit and attach a larger screen it can be done. The hardware changes are not that big of a deal to make, but if the driver for the new touch screen is different than the one already complied in the software that would be the biggest hurdle. I have talked to the guys at DrewTech and they are willing to take on special projects to help people complete their projects.

I understand the desire for a larger screen but I really have had no issues using the screen that is there. A bigger screen would be better but it was not a deal breaker for me as the unit has so many advantages for diplaying multiple sources and logging them all in a nice clean package.

Dave
 

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